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Small vs. large WH (solo wh living)

Author
Artesius
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2017-01-30 16:28:41 UTC
Hello folks, I have my "toes" in two c3's, one of them is a small system just about 15AU end to end, and the other is closer to 35+ AU.

I'm wondering if there's an advantage for a smaller system that gives me 95% dscan coverage. I'm thinking I can identify guests more quickly while ratting away - as an example (as long as I or one of my alts are close to the centre etc.).
Being solo, I have limited ALTs and therefore eyes on wh connections.

That said, when someone comes into a small system, they can see me immediately as well.

Thanks for your feedback!
Ahmed Ibn Rustah
Maxim 6
#2 - 2017-01-30 16:54:26 UTC
If you are ratting in your home hole you should be closing all the holes first. Once that's done and you are ratting you look out for new sigs, if/when a new sig appears you gtfo.

In a smaller hole as you point out as soon as someone rolls into you they will see you reducing the amount of time you have to notice then and get safe. A larger system gives you potentially more time due to the people coming in having to warp about more to notice you.

However as has been said by many people many times, its your static you want to farm because once all the sites are done you just roll again.
Artesius
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2017-01-30 17:18:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Artesius
Ahmed Ibn Rustah wrote:


In a smaller hole as you point out as soon as someone rolls into you they will see you reducing the amount of time you have to notice then and get safe. A larger system gives you potentially more time due to the people coming in having to warp about more to notice you.


Thanks. You're right. Therein lies the rub: it is ideal of course to close all holes. But on average there are at least 4 or 5 of them (today there are 8!). That's not trivial and quite risky for a solo with one other alt for hole closing to do (I still want a 3rd alt to be eyes only).

It's a tossup between closing every one of the holes, or closing one or two and paying lots of attention to dscan knowing that most of the system is scan covered. I guess another option is waiting until the system has only 2 or 3 holes including static). Risk vs. Risk.
Taurean Eltanin
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2017-01-30 18:59:03 UTC
Small is much better. Any serious hunter is cloaked, so you only have a chance to notice them when they enter or leave the system. If that entrance is 20 AU away, you won't see them until they uncloak beside you.

If you like reading about low sec piracy or wormhole pvp, you might enjoy my blog.

Zarek Kree
Lunatic Legion Holdings
#5 - 2017-01-31 00:16:21 UTC
I'm inclined to think a smaller hole is better when you're solo simply because being able to see everything offers slightly enhanced peace of mind. That said, I don't think it's a big deal either way as a practical matter if you have a POS or citadel in system.

I play as a single toon and don't bother to roll or guard the existing holes when I'm running sigs. Instead, I stay on top of D-Scan looking for probes. Admittedly, somebody can always scan the system before I log on, but I haven't been ambushed yet. However, I NEVER run anoms without closing the holes because it's just too easy to get into the system undetected and surprise me in my combat site. I also watch for new signatures and dock up the moment a new one appears since it may be an incoming wormhole. That's saved me numerous times. None of those safety measures are impacted by the size of the wormhole.

However, if you're just squatting in the hole and don't have a citadel or POS to run to, there are real practical advantages to having a staging spot out of D-sscan range of most of the system.
Artesius
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2017-01-31 02:38:00 UTC
Zarek Kree wrote:

However, if you're just squatting in the hole and don't have a citadel or POS to run to, there are real practical advantages to having a staging spot out of D-sscan range of most of the system.


Thanks!

My intent is to setup a POS first and later a Citadel, shoot the POCOs and set myself fully.

What are you using for closing holes? How much time on average does it take to close one down?
RolandofGilead Hakaari
NC Positronics Ltd
#7 - 2017-01-31 03:02:57 UTC  |  Edited by: RolandofGilead Hakaari
Artesius wrote:


My intent is to setup a POS first and later a Citadel, shoot the POCOs and set myself fully.


FYI-POCO bashing as a solo player is a real chore. I lived solo in a C3 and had big plans to kill/replace all the POCOs but gave up after 2, lol. Its a 2 day affair, you really need more than one person shoooting otherwise its hours of boredom and danger. I play with 3 accounts and had all three toons in Armaggedons which worked ok. This approach still took @ 40 minutes or so if i remember correctly. THEN you have to bash it again 24-?? Hours later all the while keeping track of new sigs/holes. Reinforced POCOs' timers show up for all to see so, thats another element of danger. Its like hanging up a giant sign telling the WH community "Gone for now but ill be back at this EXACT time, mkaaay??" :)

As far as rolling holes, most battleships fit with higgs rigs will do the trick. I chose to go the Rolling Victorieux Yacht route which some people scoff at but if you're solo I say fk that, do whatever gets the job done. Its not like rolling holes is fun or anything. 3 toons all in Rolling Yachts can zip up most holes in about ten minutes.
Artesius
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2017-01-31 05:38:51 UTC
RolandofGilead Hakaari wrote:
Artesius wrote:


My intent is to setup a POS first and later a Citadel, shoot the POCOs and set myself fully.
Its like hanging up a giant sign telling the WH community "Gone for now but ill be back at this EXACT time, mkaaay??" :)


That's funny!

Thanks for all the advice.
Andrew Indy
Cleaning Crew
#9 - 2017-01-31 05:43:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Andrew Indy
RolandofGilead Hakaari wrote:


As far as rolling holes, most battleships fit with higgs rigs will do the trick. I chose to go the Rolling Victorieux Yacht route which some people scoff at but if you're solo I say fk that, do whatever gets the job done. Its not like rolling holes is fun or anything. 3 toons all in Rolling Yachts can zip up most holes in about ten minutes.


Its best to use a BS with a mass below 100mil before Higgs (200 after) it makes the math much easier. Better to be slightly under than slightly over.

Also yachts are not really worth it any more, at least in my mind. Something like a stabber is faster, cheaper and can fit a probe launcher. Without nullification you are easily caught in either. Hell if you want super cheap fly with an empty pod and use a T1 indy with minimal fitting. They can do the same job and can cost almost nothing (2.6Mil if Pyfa is correct) but they are much slower than a cruiser and the fit is totally gimped to get a 100MN AB on.

As for the OP question.

The advantages and disadvantages swing both ways. Go with which ever WH has better PI ect.
Zarek Kree
Lunatic Legion Holdings
#10 - 2017-01-31 06:19:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Zarek Kree
Artesius wrote:
What are you using for closing holes? How much time on average does it take to close one down?


I use a Higgs rigged Raven with a 500MN MWD. With the MWD on, you stay just under the 300M kg mass limit of most holes (be careful because many battleships like the Scorpion are just a little too big). I supplement that with a Higgs Omen for when the hole is critical and it can't take another battleship run. A typical 2B kg hole necessitates 4 round trips and 3 x 5 min timers - so about 15 min per hole most of the time. But about 20-30% of the time, the hole is funky and you either have to go back and get your Omen to finish it or you get trapped on the far side. Rolling holes solo is as much an art as a science. It's not hard, but you have to get a feel for it.

As for bashing POCOs solo, I've done it about 10 times now using a couple of different methods. For your main, nothing beats the cost effectiveness of an Oracle running lasers. If you want to take it down as fast as possible and can multi-box or run multiple computers, Alpha alts in the Gnosis are the best solution I've come up with. With my main in an Oracle and 3 alts in Gnosis's, it takes me right at 90 min to put a POCO into reinforcement. Later, I usually take the armor and structure down solo in my Oracle in about the same amount of time.

However, lately I've taken to just parking my Oracle by itself at the POCO before I go to bed and checking it the next morning. That takes about 5 1/2 hours at 750 DPS. I have about a 50% success rate with that. Sometimes I wake up to a reinforced POCO and other times I wake up in my clone bay. Totally worth it to me if I don't feel like making a production out of it. An Oracle isn't that expensive.
Artesius
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2017-01-31 17:26:42 UTC
Zarek Kree wrote:
I use a Higgs rigged Raven with a 500MN MWD.

Sometimes I wake up to a reinforced POCO and other times I wake up in my clone bay. Totally worth it to me if I don't feel like making a production out of it. An Oracle isn't that expensive.


Trying to balance efficiency with risk - a Raven seems like a good solution for me. Both my toons can fly one - so it's a no brainer. Can you please share your fit?

And that idea of taking your chances with poco killing makes total sense. One more reason to have a Citadel nearby!

This particular WH sub forum with its knowledgeable regulars is like having a private WH consulting team. Thanks everyone for great feedback. It is part of what makes this "game" so engrossing.
Artesius
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2017-01-31 17:41:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Artesius
Andrew Indy wrote:
Hell if you want super cheap fly with an empty pod and use a T1 indy with minimal fitting. They can do the same job and can cost almost nothing (2.6Mil if Pyfa is correct) but they are much slower than a cruiser and the fit is totally gimped to get a 100MN AB on.

As for the OP question.

The advantages and disadvantages swing both ways. Go with which ever WH has better PI ect.


Thanks for this. It is a tossup it seems as far as risk goes. I'm monitoring both systems right now, while testing solo ratting and hole zipping in SISI. By next week I'll fully move into the C3 of choice.

As far as a cruiser hole roller goes: the price point is tempting, but my concern is also efficiency. Correct me if I'm wrong, something like a Higgs stabber doubles the time it takes compared to a BS?
Zarek Kree
Lunatic Legion Holdings
#13 - 2017-01-31 22:30:14 UTC
Artesius wrote:
Trying to balance efficiency with risk - a Raven seems like a good solution for me. Both my toons can fly one - so it's a no brainer. Can you please share your fit?


Here's the fit I use:

[Raven, WH Roller]

'Halcyon' Core Equalizer I
'Halcyon' Core Equalizer I
'Halcyon' Core Equalizer I
'Halcyon' Core Equalizer I
'Halcyon' Core Equalizer I

500MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Burst Jammer II
Large Micro Jump Drive
Multispectral ECM II
Multispectral ECM II
Multispectral ECM II

'Arbalest' Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher I, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Missile
'Arbalest' Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher I, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Missile
'Arbalest' Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher I, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Missile
'Arbalest' Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher I, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Missile
'Arbalest' Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher I, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Missile
Improved Cloaking Device II
Core Probe Launcher I, Core Scanner Probe I

Large Higgs Anchor I
Large Particle Dispersion Augmentor I
Large Particle Dispersion Projector I


As you can see, it's not built to fight - it's designed to be slippery (or as slippery as a battleship can get anyway). The Higgs anchor, 500MN MWD, cloak, and probe launcher are the only "must have" items - though I highly recommend the burst jammer and MJD.

It has a base mass of 99.3M kg. Running the 500MN MWD increase the mass another 50M kg and then the Higgs anchor doubles that, bringing your mass up to a total of 298.6M kg - the max you can push through a 300M kg hole. A few other T1 battleships will work as well, such as the Apocalypse, Megathron, and Tempest. Any of those will work if you have a preference for one. The other T1s have a base mass in excess of 100M kg, which is too much. I'd actually be tempted to go with a Machariel now - it's pricey but the speed and agility would be nice to offset how dog slow the Higgs makes it.
Andrew Indy
Cleaning Crew
#14 - 2017-02-01 07:37:47 UTC
Artesius wrote:


As far as a cruiser hole roller goes: the price point is tempting, but my concern is also efficiency. Correct me if I'm wrong, something like a Higgs stabber doubles the time it takes compared to a BS?


yes a BS is much much better, was more of a comparison to the Yacht (it has about the same Mass)

Yachts used to be good because you could have them stabbed, Nullified and cloaky with fast align to boot. It was almost impossible to catch one so you could roll a WH with a hostile fleet sitting on it. CCP nerfed them by canceling nullification when you Higgs something. Now they are just expensive cloaky ships with poor fitting and no room for a probe launcher (for Rolling that is).


Quote:
Here's the fit I use:


Personally I don't really see the point of the RHML, you lock speed (PYFA says 102 seconds for a Destroyer) will be so bad its hard to think of a scenario where you could use them. Same goes with ECM.

if you want a Stabbed to the hilt fit use AOE stuff like ECM burst and smartbombs will be more effective. Maybe an AB for burning back under scram, Target breaker as well.

Otherwise just go full Hull tanked PVP fit, most likely going to die anyway might as well give them a surprise.

Quote:
Machariel now - it's pricey but the speed and agility would be nice to offset how dog slow the Higgs makes it.


Nightmare for the win, can burn back to the WH under scram.

Quote:
Rolling holes solo is as much an art as a science. It's not hard, but you have to get a feel for it.
if the WH is fresh its super easy with BS's, its more a science (if its not fresh then defiantly an art).

HOT (prop on) Cold (prop off)
1Bil WH, just 1 BS in cold, out hot. if it masses, then do another cold hot. If not then Hot/Hot.
2Bil WH, 2 BS in Cold, 2 BS out Hot , if it masses then 2XCold/Hot, if not then 2X Hot/Hot
3Bil WH, 3 BS in cold, 3 BS out Hot , if it masses then 3X Cold/Hot if not then 3X Hot/Hot

You can also insta roll a WH with 2,4 or 6 BS depending on the Mass (1,2,3bil) by jumping in half hot and half cold. then jump out half cold and half hot if it masses or all hot if not.

Works everytime (Fresh WHs only)
Zarek Kree
Lunatic Legion Holdings
#15 - 2017-02-01 10:58:23 UTC
I agree the RHMLs are useless. I only put them in there because I hated to leave the high slots empty. The rigs make the ECMs potentially useful, but you're right - the lock time is too slow for practical value. The times that I've been caught, it was the stabs, MJD and burst jammer that have saved me. I've never had time to get target locks. I like the idea of using smartbombs and an afterburner though, as well as beefing up the tank. I may refit it with those mods at some point.

As for WHs - even when they're fresh, they have a 10% variance in size, which can really screw up your calculations. That means a 2B hole can be as small as 1.8B or as big as 2.2B (or anything in between). My last outbound jump is usually calculated to bring it to 1.8B so that I can jump back bringing the mass to 2.1B. That usually works - but not always due to variance. My typical solo pattern with 1 BS is:

1B - Hot-Hot-Cold-Hot
2B - Hot-Hot-Hot-Hot-Cold-Cold-Cold-Hot

3B and 5B holes only occur in C5 and C6 holes, so that's not something a solo player should ever face.
Artesius
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2017-02-03 01:16:17 UTC
@Zerek and @Andrew thank you for your considered feedback.
Tyrant Scorn
#17 - 2017-02-15 17:15:58 UTC
Taurean Eltanin wrote:
Small is much better. Any serious hunter is cloaked, so you only have a chance to notice them when they enter or leave the system. If that entrance is 20 AU away, you won't see them until they uncloak beside you.


This !
Liafcipe9000
Critically Preposterous
#18 - 2017-02-16 15:31:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Liafcipe9000
don't mind me, I'm just your friendly neighborhood shekel man, here to tell you that you should never be alone in such hostile environments.

wink. Blink
Abydos Strong
Abby Inc
#19 - 2017-02-16 22:03:11 UTC
Zarek Kree wrote:
As for WHs - even when they're fresh, they have a 10% variance in size, which can really screw up your calculations.


His method, which is the same as the one we use, will accommodate the possible variance in 2 bil mass holes, and give you a 100% success rate. On a fresh hole that is. If it isn't fresh, we are all just guessing. Sometimes the results can be less than hilarious.
Zarek Kree
Lunatic Legion Holdings
#20 - 2017-02-16 23:02:43 UTC
Abydos Strong wrote:
His method, which is the same as the one we use, will accommodate the possible variance in 2 bil mass holes, and give you a 100% success rate. On a fresh hole that is. If it isn't fresh, we are all just guessing. Sometimes the results can be less than hilarious.


It's mathematically impossible to get a 100% success rate rolling solo with one toon. If you err on the side of caution (as you should) and bring the mass to the minimum of 1.8B outbound, there's no way to then bring it to the maximum of 2.2B inbound. The most you can do 2.1B. If you watch for the first contraction, you can make some adjustments along the way and get a pretty high success rate - but it'll never be 100% even with a fresh hole.
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