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ME Formula with Engineering Complex ME modifier

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Isilmadien
Ghost Lions
#1 - 2017-01-21 11:26:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Isilmadien
Hello, i'm a returning player and was checking the new Citadels/Engineering complexes bonuses and noticed that the ME bonus (don't know for the TE now), is not calculated as i would expect.
Namely, if i have a 10% Material Consumption reduction from a fully researched BPO and also a 1% Material Consumption Modifier from the complex, shouldn't i have 11% Material Consumption reduction in total?

From my math and what the game asks it seems that the 1% reduction from the complex is not calculated on the 100% of the material required (as with the BPO ME), but on the already reduced value from the BPO ME.

So if i have the Antimatter Reactor Unit BPO ME 0, this requires 9 Tungsten Carbide, for 10k runs it would ask for 90k Tungsten.
With 10ME and 1% bonus from the complex i would expect:

90000 * 0.89 = 80100 units

Instead i get

90000 * 0.891 = 80190 units

The 0.891 comes from 0.9, which is the factor when accounting for 10% BPO ME reduction and then 1% of that, so 0.9 - ((0.9 * 1) / 100).

Is this really as intended?
Zad Murrard
Frozen Dawn Inc
Frozen Dawn Alliance
#2 - 2017-01-21 13:09:55 UTC
Think I read that they are multiplied, not added.
Kolmogorow
Freedom Resources
#3 - 2017-01-21 13:39:28 UTC
Yes, that's how it works and I'm sure, it's intended. Here is a useful Compilation of Industry Formulas which is, I believe, quite up-to-date. About the "material modifier" that affects the required material of a production job it says:

"materialModifier is a product of the ME modifier (1.0 to 0.90 or 0% to 10% reduction) and the facility modifier (1.05 for Rapid Assembly Arrays, 1.0 for NPC Station, 0.98 for most POS arrays)" (and we can add now: 0.99 for ECs)
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#4 - 2017-01-21 14:15:41 UTC
It's entirely intended. pretty much all modifiers in eve are multiplied in, rather than added then applied. This has a few side effects. The _major_ one is that you don't have a chance to go below 0. (yes, you didn't have that chance with ME. but the principle holds)

The rig modifier is an additional modifier, rather than an adjustment to the base for the EC.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Isilmadien
Ghost Lions
#5 - 2017-01-21 15:15:51 UTC
Ok, thank you all for the clarifications!
Isilmadien
Ghost Lions
#6 - 2017-01-22 21:37:32 UTC
I have another doubt for the same setup, just a different BPO, namely Electrolytic Capacitor Unit, always ME 10.
This among other things requires 1 Nanotransistor per run (even at ME 0); if i do 1000 runs with the fully researched BPO and the Azbel bonus i get 1000 Nanotransistors required... am i missing something?
ME and the Azbel bonus here don't apply..., why? Given that the material reduction should be applied on the Job not a single run?
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2017-01-23 00:30:25 UTC
you can not reduce the required materials to less than one per run.
Isilmadien
Ghost Lions
#8 - 2017-01-23 11:34:21 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
you can not reduce the required materials to less than one per run.


I know but when introducing the new ME/TE bonuses i recall them saying that they would be applied per job (so accounting all the runs) not per run.
Otherwise you wouldn't get any material reduction in other cases (for instance when it requires 2 units) with many runs.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2017-01-23 11:43:58 UTC
it is applied per job.

however, it's not possible to reduce it to less than one per run of the job.

it's in order to make sure that you can't (for example) build 10 anathemas from 9 magnate hulls.
Isilmadien
Ghost Lions
#10 - 2017-01-23 12:59:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Isilmadien
Gilbaron wrote:
it is applied per job.

however, it's not possible to reduce it to less than one per run of the job.

it's in order to make sure that you can't (for example) build 10 anathemas from 9 magnate hulls.


Ok but still doesn't make much sense... I mean i'm not saying you're not correct, but it would make more sense to differentiate by type of material. Oh well...

EDIT:
Scratch my "it doesn't make much sense", from a realistic point of view, even with multiple runs, going to reduce usage below one would mean creating matter from nothing... and i think that the material which requires 2 or more units can be reduced because some of those units are seen as wasted.
Didn't thought about it ^^'.
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2017-01-23 13:13:40 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
it is applied per job.

however, it's not possible to reduce it to less than one per run of the job.

it's in order to make sure that you can't (for example) build 10 anathemas from 9 magnate hulls.

That's not true, actually there are prints "suffering" from exactly this. If this is a bug or not, I don't know. Can't remember which, have to check my stack.

I'm my own NPC alt.