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Citadel defenses are pathetic.....why bother?

Author
Maekchu
Doomheim
#21 - 2017-01-09 02:10:18 UTC
From personal experience, then I can at least say, that a Citadel can deter 3 Drakes + Scimi on its own.

Turns out, Drakes are crap at doing anything else than farming WHs :D
Wanda Fayne
#22 - 2017-01-09 02:19:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Wanda Fayne
Lothar Mandrake wrote:
Wanda Fayne wrote:
Okay let's put this in perspective:
Battle Report



Now you're bringing defenders into it which defeats the whole point. I would like to see the same Battle Report with only the structure defense kills and no pilots.

I should put up a citadel and hire The Horde to kill it. I'll only use citadel defenses to fight back. That way I can show you in print what I mean. Keep it focused. I'm trying to show the issues with the ASML's very limited abilities. That mechanic needs a shot of Viagra.


I referred to your example. The defenders gave better than they got, and there were only 12 (plus someone in the citadel). PH had almost 300.

As to your other example, M-OEE8,
I stopped counting at 600 kills by JUST the keepstar, on only the last day. I suspect that citadel killed thousands.
Structures in highsec are weaker (by design) by not having access to area-of-affect weapons.
What is really the balance issue?

"your comments just confirms this whole idea is totally pathetic" -Lan Wang-

  • - "hub humping station gamey neutral logi warspam wankery" -Ralph King-Griffin-
Lothar Mandrake
Mandrake Executor Corp
Mandrake Alliance
#23 - 2017-01-09 02:23:47 UTC
Cien Banchiere wrote:
You're getting the answers you're asking for from several people so far.



Agreed. Good discussion people. Whatever CCP chooses to do is what will happen. My last words.....

If something doesn't change to keep new "paying" members none of this will matter anyway. Last May, I brought in 11 "paying" members and 9 are gone due to them saying the "game sucks but the graphics are great", "leans too much toward big corps" and "doesn't give a solo player a chance to survive on their own". New money is the only thing that will keep this game alive.

None of this is my opinion, it's new people trying out the game and choosing to purchase Gameplay. I will continue to try to attract new paying players. I believe EVE is worth it. Yes, I could buy Plex with ISK too, I choose to pay real money and will continue paying real money until they kick me out, LOL! CCP can't pay their salaries and bills with ISK so I will support them with all my family's accounts (in-laws included).

-

Maekchu
Doomheim
#24 - 2017-01-09 02:27:48 UTC
Lothar Mandrake wrote:
"leans too much toward big corps" and "doesn't give a solo player a chance to survive on their own".

You can do stuff solo. Been playing solo most of my time in EvE since 2012, only started to play with friends recently.

But people need to stop thinking they will be able to take space, defend structures or take on alliances with several thousand members on their own.

With that said, I still encourage people to just play in corps especially in the beginning.
Wanda Fayne
#25 - 2017-01-09 02:39:11 UTC
Lothar Mandrake wrote:
Cien Banchiere wrote:
You're getting the answers you're asking for from several people so far.



Agreed. Good discussion people. Whatever CCP chooses to do is what will happen. My last words.....

If something doesn't change to keep new "paying" members none of this will matter anyway. Last May, I brought in 11 "paying" members and 9 are gone due to them saying the "game sucks but the graphics are great", "leans too much toward big corps" and "doesn't give a solo player a chance to survive on their own". New money is the only thing that will keep this game alive.

None of this is my opinion, it's new people trying out the game and choosing to purchase Gameplay. I will continue to try to attract new paying players. I believe EVE is worth it. Yes, I could buy Plex with ISK too, I choose to pay real money and will continue paying real money until they kick me out, LOL! CCP can't pay their salaries and bills with ISK so I will support them with all my family's accounts (in-laws included).


PH numbers are up +200 this week...
coincidenceQuestion

"your comments just confirms this whole idea is totally pathetic" -Lan Wang-

  • - "hub humping station gamey neutral logi warspam wankery" -Ralph King-Griffin-
Elmund Egivand
Sebestacny Circle
#26 - 2017-01-09 02:51:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Solo pilot here. I am surviving JUST FINE.

Surviving does not mean 'build a giant structure you can't defend'. Surviving for a solo player means being able to adapt to circumstances, being agile enough to adapt quickly and being opportunistic as hell.

Building a giant Citadel is not how one survives as a solo player. Scale down to something more manageable, why don't you?

If you absolutely have to build a giant Citadel as a solo player, then, for ancestor's sake, make use of what interpersonal skills you have and make powerful friends to protect your stuff!

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#27 - 2017-01-09 03:50:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Nat Silverguard
citadels are working as intended and I AGREE.

you don't need a citadel if you are solo. why would anybody want such PITA in his life. What?

Just Add Water

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#28 - 2017-01-09 04:00:42 UTC
I have seen POSes (remember those?) described as "Carebear death stars" and festooned with all kinds of weaponry so do I take it that citadels are harder to defend?


Were it up to me™ I would complement citadel defense (hurr durr this is an MMO HTFU) with......


a herring!

OK just kidding.

How about giving citadels an agent that dols out rewards for defenders. Dock in the citadel, get a mission from an agent that says "attack some of these knucklheads attacking my station so I don't have to find a new apartment" and for a while hammer away. No need to deal with clunky wardec crap ...


ANYBODY CAN PLAY

(oh oh... it's not about anybody having PVP when they want it, it never is, mostly in these forums...... mostly)

But that's like, just my opinion anyway. I don't have the means for a citadel, so I'm out of my league.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Neuntausend
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2017-01-09 06:56:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Neuntausend
Lothar Mandrake wrote:
"leans too much toward big corps" and "doesn't give a solo player a chance to survive on their own".


Weren't you the one talking realism earlier? Like that totally realistic one man corporation with a giant multi-kilometer production facility that can survive the onslaught of an army? Wait, that's not realistic at all....

But it has been said already, realism is not a factor in a game about spaceships with submarine physics and immortal pilots. You are talking balance now. But look at it this way: If a citadel on its own could take on a hundred guys if undefended, how many people would you need to bring to take it down if it was actually defended? What kind of balance would that be? You cannot make them stronger for small groups without making them stronger for large groups as well, so in the end, the game will still be in favor of the large groups.

Having strong fortifications in the strategic sense like we had in the middle ages where 20 dudes in a stronghold were able to defend against a thousand dudes outside could work, if we could actually siege them, as in blockade people from getting in and out until they starve to death. But we cannot do that, so a strong fortress like that would only break the game.

POSes are not able to do what you are asking either, by the way. Even an undefended deathstar could easily be taken down by a couple dozen guys by sniping the weapons first. It's merely annoying, time consuming and not very entertaining, but it's not difficult.

I think Citadels and Engineering Complexes are in a good place. If anything, I feel that the Astrohouses are a bit too cheap, and I also think that it's not optimal that the repair timer runs at normal speed in TiDi. I get why it does, though, and I currently see no solution to the problem.

On the point of why anyone should bother: At some point, POSes and Outposts will go away, so Citadels and ECs will be the only option. In Highsec, you can make do with NPC stations if you want, but in Sov Null there aren't any. People will need to have them, and that's why they bother - simple as that.

Citadels in Highsec on the other hand are a luxury. If you can't afford it - tough luck.

If you like to play solo, or in very small groups, that's fine and completely viable. But then owning a big corporate structure may not be for you. You can of course still use them, by either using the ones that are publicly accessible or making friends with larger groups that would allow you to use theirs. Or, if you have the funds you can just hire mercenaries to defend one you built yourself. Between the 24 hour war dec timer, reinforcement cycles and vulnerability windows, you have more than enough time and opportunity to organize that. If you are not even able or willing to do that, you really should not have one. You cannot just invest a couple billion in a giant "shoot me" sign and expect it to automagically defend itself against a proper assault.
Black Locust
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2017-01-09 08:58:56 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Solo pilot here. I am surviving JUST FINE.

Surviving does not mean 'build a giant structure you can't defend'. Surviving for a solo player means being able to adapt to circumstances, being agile enough to adapt quickly and being opportunistic as hell.




^ This

Hir Miriel
Elves In Space
#31 - 2017-01-09 09:20:04 UTC
Lothar Mandrake wrote:
Cien Banchiere wrote:
You're getting the answers you're asking for from several people so far.



Agreed. Good discussion people. Whatever CCP chooses to do is what will happen. My last words.....

If something doesn't change to keep new "paying" members none of this will matter anyway. Last May, I brought in 11 "paying" members and 9 are gone due to them saying the "game sucks but the graphics are great", "leans too much toward big corps" and "doesn't give a solo player a chance to survive on their own". New money is the only thing that will keep this game alive.

None of this is my opinion, it's new people trying out the game and choosing to purchase Gameplay. I will continue to try to attract new paying players. I believe EVE is worth it. Yes, I could buy Plex with ISK too, I choose to pay real money and will continue paying real money until they kick me out, LOL! CCP can't pay their salaries and bills with ISK so I will support them with all my family's accounts (in-laws included).


I'd be paying money right now to play EVE if there was a feasible path for building stuff. Planetary stuff has the shadow of a promise, building an outpost was fun, but the emphasis seems to be on treadmill gameplay. Build stuff, get it blown up, rebuild it.

Which is a great stategy for repeat gameplay, but all I really want to do is build a little home in Eden, and make stuff there. Without it getting blown up while I'm sleeping by a bigger group of players. I don't find that appealing, I've played those games before and the excitement is minimal.

But that's the way CCP wants it, so there's nothing I can do. Apart from forum lurking and skill queuing.

~ ~~ Thinking inside Schrodinger's sandbox. ~~ ~

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#32 - 2017-01-09 09:26:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Oh dear another circle jerk attacking the player as well.

Let me start of by saying a large POS in hisec was very safe and why was that, it was because I could set it up to be a right royal pain in the ass die of boredom type thing to shoot which is why no hisec entity went after anything more than a small POS. I had a small POS in Niarja which I took from a ganker bumper superstar and I got two war decs after that and my small pos killed on its own a Falcon and a Confessor, I found that rather good fun...

So by that definition Citadels and indy structures are naff, pure and simple. My previous posts on this subject support the force multiplier approach, however I find them just too damn weak compared to what I could setup before and that is an issue...


I have built one Citadel and got all the fittings and am in the process of building three Raitaru and will do all the fittings and rigs for a smart little indy setup, but I am not going to put them in space, because I am treating this game as a resource gathering game and not doing stuff that gives those NPC bosses called players easy kills , but I can admire these lovely things sitting in my hanger.

Have fun guys..., well not on me of course, but I am still having fun treating Eve as a hang tough resource gathering game with player interaction on my terms only...

EDIT: And by the way before any of you call me names for not knowing what I am talking about, I was actually there for most of the timer though being a smart player I was not in the war dec, but was giving boosts and running an interceptor scout for a defence fleet, sadly PH attacked after I got wife aggro and had to log. Shocked

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Neuntausend
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2017-01-09 09:38:45 UTC
Hir Miriel wrote:
Which is a great stategy for repeat gameplay, but all I really want to do is build a little home in Eden, and make stuff there. Without it getting blown up while I'm sleeping by a bigger group of players. I don't find that appealing, I've played those games before and the excitement is minimal.

You could just set the vulnerability windows so that you are not asleep when they open? It's not like anyone can go and attack your Citadel or EC whenever they want.

A Raitaru can be attacked for 9 hours a week, and you can set this window to whenever you want. An Astrahus can only be attacked for 3 hours. You get a 24 hour warning before a war starts. If you cannot dedicate 9 hours a week to safeguarding your passive money making machine, then find a couple of guys who can. That's a good idea anyway, because even if you are not asleep, you won't be able to defend it properly alone.

If however you are unwilling to defend your claim, how did you come to the conclusion that Eve is the right game for you? Keep in mind that the Eve economy is only as interesting as it is, because the ever running war machine devours lots and lots of material that needs to be replenished. There would be no point to building stuff, if you coud safely build stuff and never have to fight for your ability to do so.
Violet Crumble
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#34 - 2017-01-09 10:38:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Violet Crumble
Dracvlad wrote:
... which is why no hisec entity went after anything more than a small POS...

Throughout all of 2016 there were 1497 POS towers in highsec killed.

1 in every 6 was a 'large' Control tower (16%)
1 in 4 was a Medium Control tower (24%)

Since the introduction of Citadels, 167 were killed in highsec last year. In the same period since the introduction of Citadels, 814 POS were killed in highsec.

130 were 'large' Control towers
195 were Medium Control towers

Medium and 'large' Control towers continue to be killed at a greater rate than Citadels or Engineering Complexes.

Funtime Factory - We put the fun back in funtime

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#35 - 2017-01-09 10:47:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Violet Crumble wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
... which is why no hisec entity went after anything more than a small POS...

Throughout all of 2016 there were 1497 POS towers in highsec killed.

1 in every 6 was a 'large' Control tower (16%)
1 in 4 was a Medium Control tower (24%)

Since the introduction of Citadels, 167 were killed in highsec last year. In the same period since the introduction of Citadels, 814 POS were killed in highsec.

130 were 'large' Control towers
195 were Medium Control towers

Medium and 'large' Control towers continue to be killed at a greater rate than Citadels or Engineering Complexes.


Interesting data. The next question is of course how many of those large and medium POS's were offline, does you data include that very important fact? And by default how many of those large or medium POS's were actually setup to be a swine to kill.

I actually helped a friend in a Large dickstar defence in hisec a number of years back and it was hilarious, they, six players with about 10 toons bashed it for 6 hours and still failed, can't quite do that with hisec Citadels can I? Which is of course the point that the OP was making?

Back to CREST data again I see...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Neuntausend
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2017-01-09 11:03:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Neuntausend
Dracvlad wrote:
I actually helped in a Large dickstar defence in hisec a number of years back and it was hilarious, they bashed it for 6 hours and still failed, can't quite do that with hisec Citadels can I?

That's a good thing. Bashing a Large POS in Highsec, no matter if defended or not is not fun. And winning by making it not fun, although a viable tactic where possible is not a very good game design concept.

If you are the defender, even with a Citadel you already have the advantage, as you can dictate when the fight happens and you have a pretty formidable Combat Station on the field. At that point, you either drive the attacker off and win, or you don't and loose. Sounds quite alright to me.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#37 - 2017-01-09 11:06:54 UTC
Neuntausend wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
I actually helped in a Large dickstar defence in hisec a number of years back and it was hilarious, they bashed it for 6 hours and still failed, can't quite do that with hisec Citadels can I?

That's a good thing. Bashing a Large POS, no matter if defended or not is not fun. And winning by making it not fun, although a viable tactic where possible is not a very good game design concept.

If you are the defender, even with a Citadel you already have the advantage, as you can dictate when the fight happens and you have a pretty formidable Combat Station on the field. At that point, you either drive the attacker off and win, or you don't and lose. Sounds quite alright to me.


Well I can say the same about bumping, and AFK Cloaky camping can't I?

The simple fact of the matter is that I as a player can no longer setup a tough to take structure as I did before, the Citadel defences in hisec are just weak and they purely rely on the sheer number in space not to be attacked, that is not good game play either...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#38 - 2017-01-09 11:08:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Ralph King-Griffin
Just want to interject,
I've personally shot at more medium and large towers than I'd care to remember.
We use cap changed Navy geddons as they'll hit a large tower easily and have a sizable chunk of drone DPS that a dickstar can't jam out.

My one is called "Ian".
You can check our KB if you want.

Edit: and for the record I think a maned and defended citadel is a hell of a lot more intimidating than a POS.
Neuntausend
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2017-01-09 11:13:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Neuntausend
Dracvlad wrote:
Well I can say the same about bumping, and AFK Cloaky camping can't I?

You can. And now?


Dracvlad wrote:
The simple fact of the matter is that I as a player can no longer setup a tough to take structure as I did before, the Citadel defences in hisec are just weak and they purely rely on the sheer number in space not to be attacked, that is not good game play either...

Have did you see how much the CO2 Citadel killed? You certainly can set up a tough to take Structure, you just need to put in a bit of effort.

If you just poop out a 2.5B Astrohouse somewhere in Highsec, why would it be expected to be able to stand up to a whole fleet of people?


Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Just want to interject,
I've personally shot at more medium and large towers than I'd care to remember.
We use cap changed Navy geddons as they'll hit a large tower easily and have a sizable chunk of drone DPS that a dickstar can't jam out.

My one is called "Ian".
You can check our KB if you want.

Yup. As I wrote earlier - taking down a large POS is not hard, just time consuming and annoying.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#40 - 2017-01-09 11:15:43 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Just want to interject,
I've personally shot at more medium and large towers than I'd care to remember.
We use cap changed Navy geddons as they'll hit a large tower easily and have a sizable chunk of drone DPS that a dickstar can't jam out.

My one is called "Ian".
You can check our KB if you want.


We used Geddons killing a certain gankers medium tower, I was just glad it was not a large, I was the poor sap running the logi's and having to deal with the E-war....

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp