EVE General Discussion

The fit possibilities are also primarily determined by the ship stats.
Only secondary to that comes a pilots choices in how to fit it.

The same concept remains true.
Ship stats are primary, pilot capability is secondary and restricted by the former.

When we discuss ship balance, the capability of individual pilots to fly them, is inconsequential.
Even if the finest PvP pilot EVE has ever seen flies a "bad" ship well, it does not change that it is still a bad ship by stats.

Remiel is trying to argue ship balance based on their ego and how good pilots they are.
That is irrelevant to the issue of the actual stats of ships.

You wanted to discuss the rifters stats and balance.
Remiel just wants to brow-beat you that you are a bad pilot flying it badly.

Im trying to help you get the thread back on track to discuss the ship itself.
He just wants to call you bad at flying it.

No, that is your thing.

I'm just rationally, respectfully, calmly and reasonably replying to the posts that people have addressed here to me.

I think both Remiel and Salvos are correct. The truth probably lies somewhere between both. Both piloting skills and stats will decide the outcomes of fights.

An example of a person who took the Rifter to another level was Crake Gaterau. During his time with The Black Rebel Rifter Club, he flew almost exclusively Rifters and made some very impressive killmails. This was even before the buff to the Rifters PWG. If you've done solo PvP, then you know that manual piloting and knowing different effective ranges of a module does make a difference on the outcome of a fight. An easy example would be a AB Blaster MSE Merlin vs a scram kiting Rifter. The Merlin has better stats, however the Merlin has a very short range on it's dps. If the Rifter then adjust his range to get outside of the Merlins blaster, he will still win even with less stats.

However, sometimes stats will determine the outcome no matter what you do. A simple, but not realistic example would be the Corvette vs Carrier. Someone mentioned that given enough time, the Corvette would kill the Carrier. That is incorrect, since the Corvette would never be able to break the passive tank of a Carrier. So no matter what, a SINGLE Corvette won't be able to break a Carrier, you need quite a few (But it can be done given enough).

A more realistic example and something more often encountered, is MWD kiter vs AB Brawler. Let us say you are in the AB brawling ship, then sometimes you may take a fight against a MWD kiter, because you hope they don't know how to negate a slingshot move. However, if the person is not completely nub and the agility of the MWD kiter is high enough, then it is basically impossible to slingshot. I'd consider, that here the stats predetermined the outcome.

So you are both right and can stop fighting :D

I actually don't disagree with this at all, and never did argue against it. My point was that a good pilot will make any ship good, and that no single factor is the all-encompassing, all-determining factor of all PVP encounters. My argument against Salvos is that the ships themselves aren't the be-all and end-all determining factor of PVP outcomes, and my example was a neuty Magnate vs Enyo, something I learned by dying to it, and then using it myself to kill a few active-tanked assault frigates. I also never stated that a bad pilot makes a ship bad. As a matter of fact, losing a fight doesn't make one bad, it just means you lost. The factors that determine whether or not you're bad are the same ones that determined why you lost. Everything is very situational, and a good pilot in a good ship can lose to a better pilot in a 'crap' ship.

And this is probably where the disagreement lies. I wouldn't say stats are primary and skills secondary. I wouldn't say either is more "important" then the other. Whether stats influence a fight more than piloting skills or vice versa, depends on the individual ships fighting. So in some instances piloting skills influence the fight more and in others ship stats will be more important.

To take the example of the Blaster Merlin and a scram kiting Rifter, then the Merlin have better stats than the Rifter in all areas except range control. So if ship stats are "primary", does that mean all stats are irrelevant except for range control? However, if the Rifter pilot is bad, then he might not know to pull range, wouldn't that make player skill "primary", since based on that condition the fight is then won by the Merlin with overall better stats?

As I see it, both are equally important factors and the individual ships in the fight determine what influences the outcome more.

So to take it back to the Rifter, then yes. In the context of solo frigate PvP, the Rifter does not have good stats compared to other ships, however it is still a decent scram kiter. It will win engagements vs most blaster setups or if you get a scram on a MWD kiter (piloting skill decides these fights), however it will have trouble vs stronger scram kiters (ex. Breachers or Tormentors) based on stats.

So in my opinion, one cannot look solely on ship stats to decide the strength of a ship. Both stats and how it is flown needs to be considered when balancing ships. It is basically the age old argument between EFT warriors and PvPers. If stats where the primary, then the dual rep incursus would be an insanely good ship. But people who actually PvP, know that it is just a brick that eventually will crumble, no matter how awesome it's tank and dps is.

So yeah, the Rifter might not have shiny stats, but in the hands of a decent pilot it can still do stuff. The fact that it is not an OP ship and requires you to learn engagement ranges, makes this a decent ship for people who wants to learn PvP.

Maekchu:

I will explain, logically.

Ship stats are primary for the following reason:
-The ship has hardcoded stats and fitting restrictions.

The ship, and how you fit it, represents the vehicle in which you partake in EVE.
It a system of code with specific limitations.

No matter how good you are as a PvP pilot in EVE, you cannot overcome those hardcoded limitations of that specific ship.

Player aptitude is secondary for the following reason:
-All aspects of a players personal aptitude in PvP, are systemically limited by the ship they are flying.
-A proficient pilot can fly the same ship better, than a less proficient player. But its still the same ship.
-Both players are subject to the same limitations of the ship, as explained above.

No amount of skill can make a ship do something it cannot do.
But a "good" ship allows the same player to do things they cannot do in a "bad" ship.

If its easier to conceptualize, consider the following:
-Ships stats as the base of a pyramid, where it meets the EVE surface.
This is the fundamental widest base on which the rest builds.
-2nd tier of blocks in the pyramid could be how the ship is fit.
-3rd tier, the players dedicated SP to improve performance of the bottom two tiers.
-4th and further tiers of blocks would comprise the players personal experiential aptitude at PvP, such as situational awareness game/ship knowledge etc.

However, as I pointed out.
OPs point was to discuss whether the rifter is a bad ship, not whether rifter pilots are bad.
He is not talking about skill, he is talking about the ship itself.

This guy still thinks he can tell PVP'ers how PVP works huh?

Appeal to authority.

No argument refuted.
Matter tabled.

FTFY

He's an obnoxious contrarian for its own sake, and has no idea what he's going on about. Don't even bother talking to him, just tell the newbs he lies to why he's wrong, give them examples, and hope they learn from experience instead of pretentious narcissism.

Arguing that a player can't make a ship do something it can't do is, well, obvious and simplistic. What can a ship do? CCP gives us a canvas in the fitting room a hull has, and a wide range of modules to put in those slots. This comes down to player choice as to how to fill his space. Now sure the stats limit player choice, of course they do, but the player can come up with clever ways to use those stats, and trade off one for another.

While the base stats might not depend on player skill, the proportion of the stats that are usable IS dependent on player skill. As others have already said, in certain fights one ship has better damage output, tank, speed, but it gets scrammed and can't track it's target. Now some of the stat advantages are negated. This is the point people are trying to get across to you, combat in eve is fluid with stats becoming more or less meaningful at different points in a fight. You can't simply argue 'stats are primary', without acknowledging that player skill influences the importance of the stats.

Edit: look up perfect imbalance and you can see that even in unbalanced games player skill is the deciding factor. Stats are what they are and everyone knows them. Arguing you lost because the other guys ship was better is a false way to view the situation, you lost because your plan dictated by your fit didn't work in this case.