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Why do people say the rifter is bad?

Author
Reinhardt Kreiss
TetraVaal Tactical Group
#41 - 2017-01-07 13:17:22 UTC
Your killboard is full of rock, paper, scissors :)

Astarte vs thorax. LOL dps and lol therm/kin resists
you vs newbies (you're in the Caldari newbie low sec area, tsk tsk)

Haven't been able to find one fight on your solo list that isn't an obvious outcome before the start of the fight. Not saying they don't exist but a quick glance showed zero. You make an educated guess on how to approach and deal with each and every target, you do this based on your understanding of your ship and your target's ship(s). You asses which they are, rock paper or scissors and decide if you can counter them or can adapt to counter them.
Salvos Rhoska
#42 - 2017-01-07 13:18:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Reinhardt Kreiss wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
No pilot, no matter how good, can exceed the mechanical constraints of the ship they are flying.

Ships have stats completely separate from the pilot flying it.
You cant make a ship do aomething it cant, no matter how good you are.

Ship balance is completely separate from the players that fly them.
Ship balance defines the restrictions on the craft you fly, in relation to others.

Ship stats. Ship balance. Only therafter, does it matter how well you fly that craft.


Combat Heron says hello. LOL Helios also says hello, same with combat haulers and the Venture. There's many ships that weren't designed for combat that work just fine if used right against the right type of target and pilot.


You are conflating design and intended purpose, with stats.

The stats are what they are. period.
You cant make a ship do something its stats cannot.

You can fight in a mining craft, you can mine in a combat craft.
But that doesnt change the ships stats.
Reinhardt Kreiss
TetraVaal Tactical Group
#43 - 2017-01-07 13:20:13 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
You are conflating design and intended purpose, with stats.

The stats are what they are. period.
You cant make a ship do something its stats cannot.


While Remiel and I disagree on points at least we both have a clue, you don't. Please stick to other, preferably more useless, threads.
Salvos Rhoska
#44 - 2017-01-07 13:30:05 UTC
Reinhardt Kreiss wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
You are conflating design and intended purpose, with stats.

The stats are what they are. period.
You cant make a ship do something its stats cannot.


While Remiel and I disagree on points at least we both have a clue, you don't. Please stick to other, preferably more useless, threads.


This thread is valid.

Ship balance is a perpetual issue.

The notion that there are no "bad" ships, only "bad" pilots, is irrational and false.

Ships have hardcoded stats separate from the aptitude of players that fly them.

Ship stats are CCPs purview to adjust, becoming better pilots is a player issue.
CCP can no more make players more capable pilots, than players can make ship balance better.

The hardcoded stats of the ships underlie every engagement, regardless of player skill in flying them.
Thus their balance underlies every engagement, regardless of player skill in flying them.

The stats are the cake. Flying them well is just the icing.
Reinhardt Kreiss
TetraVaal Tactical Group
#45 - 2017-01-07 13:36:37 UTC
As I stated... go away.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2017-01-07 13:38:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Reinhardt Kreiss wrote:
Your killboard is full of rock, paper, scissors :)

Astarte vs thorax. LOL dps and lol therm/kin resists
you vs newbies (you're in the Caldari newbie low sec area, tsk tsk)

Haven't been able to find one fight on your solo list that isn't an obvious outcome before the start of the fight. Not saying they don't exist but a quick glance showed zero. You make an educated guess on how to approach and deal with each and every target, you do this based on your understanding of your ship and your target's ship(s). You asses which they are, rock paper or scissors and decide if you can counter them or can adapt to counter them.


I missed this post. This was unfortunate of you. No, my KB is not full of rock-paper-scissors, just the kills you cherry-picked. There is one kill in my bio against a Cruor that I aggro'd in lowsec, on a gate, and tanked him, the gate guns, and his neuts, and still killed him, and got my Enyo out in one piece. That's just one example of some of the exceptional encounters I've had that I SHOULD HAVE LOST. As for this silly idea that there is any such thing as a newbie lowsec area, that's just ridiculous. Lowsec is lowsec, and newbies that decide to ignore the warning they get at the gate and go in anyway do so entirely at their own risk.

A quick glance isn't enough to show you what I'm capable of. In a way, I like it like that, because let the fools underestimate me. Tell me all about the Kestrel I just engaged blind, just now, in an Atron. I didn't check his fit. I probed him down, I landed on him in my Atron about 70km away from him, and he actually came at me and picked a fight. In fact, it's one he might have won had I not caught him on the edge of my heated web range to get scram. I had no idea if he was missile or rocket fit. I did see his TD hit me and decided to get as close as possible to him and minimise transversal (basically just hold him as close to 0 as possible with no orbit; you don't need transveral against a missile boat anyway) but other than that, I had no idea how it would go until it was clear I could tank his missiles, and his shield were down.

Also, don't sit there and scoff at my KB with one like yours. There are few things I hate more than a diner telling a chef how to cook pasta.

EDIT: Another one maybe a week or a few weeks ago now was me vs two, my hull-tanked Firetail vs two Catalysts. I won that in very low structure. Fights like these don't come along every day, unfortunately, and yes, my kb is full of scrubs, because I go after everything hoping it will be another good fight, or that it will at least encourage a response. Plenty of miners I've gone after have come back with friends, or had other friends come looking for me on their behalf. So you can cherry pick my KB all you like, it's not an example of RPS.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2017-01-07 13:40:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

The notion that there are no "bad" ships, only "bad" pilots, is irrational and false.


Actually, it's demonstrably true. The only reason you don't understand, or don't want it to be true, is because you're one of the bads. You know what's funny? I had this conversation with someone on the Elite forums once as well. He thought he was unstoppable because he had a big, scary Anaconda. I told him I could probably plug him in an Eagle. The difference between him and you though was that he accepted the challenge and came to fight me. And lost. Badly. Because he wasn't expecting an Eagle armed with a rail gun and missiles, nor was he expecting to be completely unable to hit me. I doubt I'll get that same opportunity here, with you, which is fine because EVE has something else to prove who's right that Elite doesn't. Killboards.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#48 - 2017-01-07 13:49:09 UTC
PvP comes down to both rock paper scissors, pilot skill, with a bit of luck thrown in.

As for the Rifter, it was nerfed a couple of years ago which is maybe why some people think it as a bad ship. It did get some buffs though afterwards which improved it. A lot of people who say stuff is bad generally have never tried it, or have tried it once or twice and becausr it wasn't an Iwin button consign the ship as bad. The rifter takes a bit of skill to use well.
Reinhardt Kreiss
TetraVaal Tactical Group
#49 - 2017-01-07 13:49:45 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Tell me all about the Kestrel I just engaged blind, just now, in an Atron. I didn't check his fit. I probed him down, I landed on him in my Atron about 70km away from him, and he actually came at me and picked a fight.


So in the caldari newbie low sec area you landed 70km away from a Kestrel while he's doing a Relic site, and all you need to know is that a) you're faster , b) you have more dps at short range and c) you probably WAY outclass him.

I'm not diminishing your kills, they're fine. But don't for a second try to make them sound any more special than they are.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#50 - 2017-01-07 13:50:06 UTC
The rifter deserves to be bad. It spent the better part of a decade being the only good frigate.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2017-01-07 13:53:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Reinhardt Kreiss wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Tell me all about the Kestrel I just engaged blind, just now, in an Atron. I didn't check his fit. I probed him down, I landed on him in my Atron about 70km away from him, and he actually came at me and picked a fight.


So in the caldari newbie low sec area...


Gonna stop you there. The Kantanen lowsec island is not a caldari newbie area. It is just another lowsec, and like any other, all newbies are warned before entering that they do so at their own risk. There is no such thing as a 'newbie low sec area'. Nobody gets any special protections in any low sec. You get that through your head, and come back and try again.

This page has a list of all the newbie systems in the game. ALL OF THEM. I suggest you familiarise yourself with it, because nowhere else in the game is considered any kind of newbie space.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2017-01-07 13:55:50 UTC
Reinhardt Kreiss wrote:
...all you need to know is that a) you're faster , b) you have more dps at short range and c) you probably WAY outclass him.




I didn't know any of these things, and in fact, he was faster. My Atron is AB fit. If he'd been able to control range, he could have forced me to retreat (due to not having point). He wasn't running a relic site, either. There were no sigs in the system. Looked like a mission, at a guess. That's irrelevant though. I didn't go in there 'knowing' anything except that I was going after a Kestrel. You need to stop making assumptions if you want to make a point, because points based on assumptions are empty ones.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Salvos Rhoska
#53 - 2017-01-07 14:13:53 UTC
Ship balance/stats are not related to player aptitude in flying them.

Ship balance/stats are hardcoded and incontrovertible unless CCP changes them.

We fly ships in EVE.
The stats of those underline specifically, utterly, what that ship is capable of (and us in it).
No amount of player aptitude can make that ship do something its stats cannot.

Anyone that claims that ship balance in EVE is perfect, is a liar.
There is no such thing as perfect balance in a system like this, unless there was only one ship and one fit.

Ergo: Ship balance is imbalanced and needs constant adjustment.

There are "good" and "bad ships, just as there are "good" and "bad" players.
The difference is that player aptitude is beyond CCP control, and up to the individual player.
Whereas ship balance/stats is specifically up to CCP, and underlies every engagement between every ship in EVE.
Reinhardt Kreiss
TetraVaal Tactical Group
#54 - 2017-01-07 15:04:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Reinhardt Kreiss
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Reinhardt Kreiss wrote:
...all you need to know is that a) you're faster , b) you have more dps at short range and c) you probably WAY outclass him.




I didn't know any of these things, and in fact, he was faster. My Atron is AB fit. If he'd been able to control range, he could have forced me to retreat (due to not having point). He wasn't running a relic site, either. There were no sigs in the system. Looked like a mission, at a guess. That's irrelevant though. I didn't go in there 'knowing' anything except that I was going after a Kestrel. You need to stop making assumptions if you want to make a point, because points based on assumptions are empty ones.


So he was "in a mission of sorts", ie mission fit in newbie Caldari low sec and you, of course, ended up those system by pure chance, not at all because it's infested with newbies :)

Could he have won? sure, if he's double web fit that's possible. If he's MWD fit and and he'd kite you then it's quite possible but if someone is running "a mission of sorts" in a Kestrel in Caldari newbie low sec there's a fair good chance that he has no clue on what he's doing and even when AB fit you'd still be able to slingshot him.

Again, don't try to make your amazing kills in newbie Caldari low sec, where you risk an Atron(!) and have alts to back you up, any more special than they are.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2017-01-07 15:20:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Reinhardt Kreiss wrote:
...newbie Caldari low sec...


You are doing nothing but demonstrating your lack of understanding of EVE Online and PVP, which is reflected in your KB and your uninformed posting. The only reason you have to keep calling lowsec this is because you either really believe that there is lowsec for newbies, or you are trying to deride my expertise in PVP. Why don't you come to 'newbie lowsec' and see just how 'newbie' it is.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2017-01-07 15:21:48 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Ship balance/stats are not related to player aptitude in flying them.


And as long as you have no aptitude, I'm sure you will continue to believe that.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Salvos Rhoska
#57 - 2017-01-07 15:23:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Remiel Pollard wrote:
So you can cherry pick my KB all you like, it's not an example of RPS.


Oh, my lord. The irony considering your attempts to denigrate others on their 1 character's KB.
And many other examples of such in this thread alone.

You truly do lack the capacity of theory of mind.

Nobody understands EVE, except you, right?
Anyone that disagrees with you, doesnt, right?
Salvos Rhoska
#58 - 2017-01-07 15:26:05 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Ship balance/stats are not related to player aptitude in flying them.


And as long as you have no aptitude, I'm sure you will continue to believe that.


How do you presume to know my aptitude?

And how does aptitude change the hard-coded stats of ships?
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2017-01-07 15:29:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
So you can cherry pick my KB all you like, it's not an example of RPS.


Oh, my lord. The irony considering your attempts to denigrate others on their 1 character's KB.
And many other examples of such in this thread alone.

You truly do lack the capacity of theory of mind.

Nobody understands EVE, except you, right?
Anyone that disagrees with you, doesnt, right?


KBs demonstrate experience. It's like a resume. All yours demonstrates is failure. Point stands though, cherry-picking them proves nothing, but I can see your entire KB on one page. Don't have to cherry-pick four losses. It's not just your KB that demonstrates a lack of understanding of PVP in EVE though, it's also everything you post. Unfortunately, new people don't understand PVP either, so they don't understand why everything you post is crap. Fortunately, I'm here to point them to the KB so they can see who they should and shouldn't listen to regarding PVP.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2017-01-07 15:29:59 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Ship balance/stats are not related to player aptitude in flying them.


And as long as you have no aptitude, I'm sure you will continue to believe that.


How do you presume to know my aptitude?

And how does aptitude change the hard-coded stats of ships?


How does a Magnate beat an Enyo? You'll never know because you'll never be good enough to do it.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104