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Why do people say the rifter is bad?

Author
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
#21 - 2017-01-07 12:16:24 UTC
Reinhardt Kreiss
TetraVaal Tactical Group
#22 - 2017-01-07 12:17:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Reinhardt Kreiss
Knowledge & experience are the most important factors, but rock paper scissors is very much in effect. Your statement about how you killed a Talos is a good example.

You won because the Talos' big papers couldn't hurt your small, fast and upclose scissors. The trick of being a good PVPer is understanding which you are (rock, paper or scissors), what the other guy is and how you might be able to change who's what.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2017-01-07 12:20:41 UTC
Reinhardt Kreiss wrote:
Knowledge & experience are the most important factors, but rock paper scissors is very much in effect. Your statement about how you killed a Talos is a good example.

You won because the Talos' big papers couldn't hurt your small, fast and upclose scissors.


That's not rock-paper-scissors though, because a 'big' Talos doesn't necessarily have to be 'paper'. It can have webs and drones, and a good pilot would. There are too many variables, in how ships can be both fit and flown, to make it that cut-and-dry, I'm sorry. What wins in a fight, Enyo or Magnate? Well, I know you want to say Enyo, but what if the Magnate has neuts? I can tell you what happens if the Magnate has neuts, because I've seen it - Magnate wins.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
#24 - 2017-01-07 12:20:41 UTC
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#25 - 2017-01-07 12:23:29 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
The result of a 1v1 PvP encounter, is primarily decided by the ship/fit each is flying.

This is evidenced by the example where if both players are equally capable, the ship/fit is the underlying systemic factor which differentiates the outcome.

You cannot engage in combat PvP without a ship.
The ship defines the capacity of you to PvP.

Whether you are a more capable player, does not change the hardcoded stats of the ship/fit you chose.

No matter how capable a driver you are, that does not change the mechanical reality of the car you are driving...


Then why do some racing drivers in equivalent cars win far more frequently than others?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Salvos Rhoska
#26 - 2017-01-07 12:24:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Ship balance and stats are hardcoded.
It underlies all combat in PvP.

No extent of player capability can change even one iota of that(barring SP, which also is hardcoded).

As an extension of that, no amount of player skill in PvP can seat you into a ship you dont SYSTEMICALLY have the SP to fly, or 4o fly it better than your SP applies stat modifers to that ship/fit.

The notion that all ships are only as "good" as the pilot sitting in them, is false.
They are only as good as their hardcoded stats.
The players capabilities are secondary.
Salvos Rhoska
#27 - 2017-01-07 12:26:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Malcanis wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
The result of a 1v1 PvP encounter, is primarily decided by the ship/fit each is flying.

This is evidenced by the example where if both players are equally capable, the ship/fit is the underlying systemic factor which differentiates the outcome.

You cannot engage in combat PvP without a ship.
The ship defines the capacity of you to PvP.

Whether you are a more capable player, does not change the hardcoded stats of the ship/fit you chose.

No matter how capable a driver you are, that does not change the mechanical reality of the car you are driving...


Then why do some racing drivers in equivalent cars win far more frequently than others?


This specifically is addressed in a previous post of mine.
Reinhardt Kreiss
TetraVaal Tactical Group
#28 - 2017-01-07 12:26:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Reinhardt Kreiss
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Reinhardt Kreiss wrote:
Knowledge & experience are the most important factors, but rock paper scissors is very much in effect. Your statement about how you killed a Talos is a good example.

You won because the Talos' big papers couldn't hurt your small, fast and upclose scissors.


That's not rock-paper-scissors though, because a 'big' Talos doesn't necessarily have to be 'paper'. It can have webs and drones, and a good pilot would. There are too many variables, in how ships can be both fit and flown, to make it that cut-and-dry, I'm sorry. What wins in a fight, Enyo or Magnate? Well, I know you want to say Enyo, but what if the Magnate has neuts? I can tell you what happens if the Magnate has neuts, because I've seen it - Magnate wins.


What you're saying is that fights are won by using the right strategy, which is helped by someone understanding his own ship's strategy and the others'. A newbie with some practising in that Slasher would, if he had been able to get close, won as well: "orbit 500, scram ship, web drones and kill those first" is not very difficult to teach or understand.

it's NOT necessarily won by who has the most paper dps, EHP or skill points. That means it's rock, paper, scissors.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2017-01-07 12:27:44 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Ship balance and stats are hardcoded.
It underlies all combat in PvP.


Since you've never done any PVP, we'll just write this off as trolling and move on.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2017-01-07 12:29:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Reinhardt Kreiss wrote:

it's NOT necessarily won by who has the most paper dps, EHP or skill points. That means it's rock, paper, scissors.



Actually, that is a direct contradiction. If it was down to the numbers alone, that would define it as rock, paper and scissors. Have you ever played Tom Clancy's Endwar? That is rock paper scissors. EVE is nothing like that, combat is far too fluid and dynamic, and the potential ship fits far too varied, to make it a simple numbers game. Last I checked, you can't turn a pair of scissors into a sheet of paper. In EVE, you can do exactly that.

Again, I'm being dictated to on what PVP in EVE is by someone who hasn't done any PVP in EVE.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Fek Mercer
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2017-01-07 12:32:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Fek Mercer
Salvos is saying that the fit/ship primarily determines the outcome of a fight, whereas remiel aslo said the same thing in that the fit was what let him win the talos fight, and that fits determine a good pilot. You are both saying the same thing with a different set of clothes. can we get back to the rifter now please?
Salvos Rhoska
#32 - 2017-01-07 12:33:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
No pilot, no matter how good, can exceed the mechanical constraints of the ship they are flying.

Ships have stats completely separate from the pilot flying it.
You cant make a ship do aomething it cant, no matter how good you are.

Ship balance is completely separate from the players that fly them.
Ship balance defines the restrictions on the craft you fly, in relation to others.

Ship stats. Ship balance. Only therafter, does it matter how well you fly that craft.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2017-01-07 12:34:44 UTC
Fek Mercer wrote:
Salvos is saying that the fit/ship primarily determines the outcome of a fight, whereas remiel aslo said the same thing in that the fit was what let him win the talos fight, and that fits determine a good pilot. You are both saying the same thing with a different set of clothes. can we get back to the rifter now please?


That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying no one single factor determines the outcome of a PVP encounter.

But on topic, I stand by what I said earlier - a good pilot can make a Rifter great. Feel free to peruse the Rifter's solo KB for examples.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Reinhardt Kreiss
TetraVaal Tactical Group
#34 - 2017-01-07 12:36:22 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Reinhardt Kreiss wrote:

it's NOT necessarily won by who has the most paper dps, EHP or skill points. That means it's rock, paper, scissors.



Actually, that is a direct contradiction. If it was down to the numbers alone, that would define it as rock, paper and scissors. Have you ever played Tom Clancy's Endwar? That is rock paper scissors. EVE is nothing like that, combat is far too fluid and dynamic, and the potential ship fits far too varied, to make it a simple numbers game. Last I checked, you can't turn a pair of scissors into a sheet of paper. In EVE, you can do exactly that.


I fear we have a different meaning on the concept of rock, paper, scissors :)

If you know that a Talos' guns (paper) can't track you because you dual prop (scissors) then you win. If you didn't dual prop then the Talos can switch from Paper to rock if he fitted dual webs. Has nothing to do with the ship stats or piloting as such, it has to do the the strategical choice of fitting to counter a specific type of target and make an educated guess on what the other's strategy will be.

Of course piloting is an important factor but ultimately it's about strategy.
Salvos Rhoska
#35 - 2017-01-07 12:36:55 UTC
Ship stats determine, on a fundamental basis, the process and outcome of every engagement.
Reinhardt Kreiss
TetraVaal Tactical Group
#36 - 2017-01-07 12:38:23 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
No pilot, no matter how good, can exceed the mechanical constraints of the ship they are flying.

Ships have stats completely separate from the pilot flying it.
You cant make a ship do aomething it cant, no matter how good you are.

Ship balance is completely separate from the players that fly them.
Ship balance defines the restrictions on the craft you fly, in relation to others.

Ship stats. Ship balance. Only therafter, does it matter how well you fly that craft.


Combat Heron says hello. LOL Helios also says hello, same with combat haulers and the Venture. There's many ships that weren't designed for combat that work just fine if used right against the right type of target and pilot.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2017-01-07 12:44:26 UTC
Reinhardt Kreiss wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Reinhardt Kreiss wrote:

it's NOT necessarily won by who has the most paper dps, EHP or skill points. That means it's rock, paper, scissors.



Actually, that is a direct contradiction. If it was down to the numbers alone, that would define it as rock, paper and scissors. Have you ever played Tom Clancy's Endwar? That is rock paper scissors. EVE is nothing like that, combat is far too fluid and dynamic, and the potential ship fits far too varied, to make it a simple numbers game. Last I checked, you can't turn a pair of scissors into a sheet of paper. In EVE, you can do exactly that.


I fear we have a different meaning on the concept of rock, paper, scissors :)

If you know that a Talos' guns (paper) can't track you because you dual prop (scissors) then you win. If you didn't dual prop then the Talos can switch from Paper to rock if he fitted dual webs. Has nothing to do with the ship stats or piloting as such, it has to do the the strategical choice of fitting to counter a specific type of target and make an educated guess on what the other's strategy will be.

Of course piloting is an important factor but ultimately it's about strategy.


I see what you're saying, but there is only one definition of rock-paper-scissors. You really need to play Endwar to understand what that would look like. EVE is not it. Yes, strategy is one important factor of an engagement, as is tactics, ship type and how it's fit and flown, etc etc. But if you're me and fly by the seat of your pants with no real strategy in mind, only tactical considerations, which is how I like to fly, the dynamism of EVE's PVP really shines through. I didn't engage a Talos in a Slasher because I knew I would beat it. I had no idea how he was fit, or what kind of pilot he was, how old, any of that. I just went suspect on him and hoped he'd shoot at me, more just to test myself than anything. I like to do that from time to time. I was honestly expecting to lose.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2017-01-07 12:45:15 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Ship stats determine, on a fundamental basis, the process and outcome of every engagement.


Is that why you have so many kills?

Oh wait...

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Reinhardt Kreiss
TetraVaal Tactical Group
#39 - 2017-01-07 12:52:31 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
I didn't engage a Talos in a Slasher because I knew I would beat it. I had no idea how he was fit, or what kind of pilot he was, how old, any of that. I just went suspect on him and hoped he'd shoot at me, more just to test myself than anything. I like to do that from time to time. I was honestly expecting to lose.


You knew a few things:

1) his guns probably wouldn't hit you even once
2) I'm sure you had a decent idea on his piloting capability based on location and corp/alliance
3) you know how you were fit and made an educated guess on which strategy to use and the chances of success

In short you KNOW if you were rock, paper or scissors and you had a fairly good idea which he'd be. Doesn't mean you knew 100% of course but the odds were in your favour. Besides, losing a slasher to a BC isn't much of an issue, killing a BC like that is hilarious and probably rage inducing for the other guy due to a death of a thousand cuts :)

You threw scissors and you fully expected him to throw paper. That is why you attacked, and being right about him being paper is why you won.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2017-01-07 13:05:41 UTC
Reinhardt Kreiss wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
I didn't engage a Talos in a Slasher because I knew I would beat it. I had no idea how he was fit, or what kind of pilot he was, how old, any of that. I just went suspect on him and hoped he'd shoot at me, more just to test myself than anything. I like to do that from time to time. I was honestly expecting to lose.


You knew a few things:

1) his guns probably wouldn't hit you even once
2) I'm sure you had a decent idea on his piloting capability based on location and corp/alliance
3) you know how you were fit and made an educated guess on which strategy to use and the chances of success

In short you KNOW if you were rock, paper or scissors and you had a fairly good idea which he'd be. Doesn't mean you knew 100% of course but the odds were in your favour. Besides, losing a slasher to a BC isn't much of an issue, killing a BC like that is hilarious and probably rage inducing for the other guy due to a death of a thousand cuts :)

You threw scissors and you fully expected him to throw paper. That is why you attacked, and being right about him being paper is why you won.


Actually, I did none of that. I just went suspect hoping for a fight. I explained this. I didn't 'throw' anything except my safety to yellow so I could steal his loot and get flagged. Look, I get what you're saying, but that's not how rock-paper-scissors works. Again, go check out Endwar for an example of a rock-paper-scissors game. EVE simply isn't it. There are too many variables. Even if I threw 'scissors' somehow 'knowing' he'd throw 'paper', there's always the chance that I'll slip and cut myself and the scissors won't be sharp enough or I'll accidentally overheat the blades until they melt or something like that. There's also the chance of someone else warping in to help with another small, fast ship.

It really irks me when people make assumptions about me though. No, I did not assume his guns wouldn't hit me, because I didn't assume he had no web and drones; no, I didn't have one seventeenth of a clue what his ability was; and no.... well, yes, but only because there's only really one strategy available in that situation, and that's to take the bull by the horns hope you don't get gored. It wouldn't be the first big ship that I've done this sort of thing with and there have been many instances where I've won and lost.

In any case, it's still not rock-paper-scissors. Everything has a counter, sure, but there is so much of 'everything' that we're gonna need more than just 3 methods of attack, all of them situational and with caveats, to analogise it all.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104