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Ore Hauler - For Alphas
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Dior Ambraelle
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2017-01-07 21:04:50 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Dior Ambraelle wrote:
What if we would simply remove 2 of gallente's 3 special industrials and give them to amarr and caldari? Each race will have 3, and each is specialized differently. Or even put in the ammo hauler too, and redistribute them all.

Why? Gallente used to have 5 industrial ships, the other races didn't. Lore wise it makes no sense to, and from a business prospective it makes no sense.

So Gallente have 5, Minmatar have 3 and sucks to be Caldari or Amarr... why is this good exactly?

If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it!

But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2017-01-07 21:25:31 UTC
Dior Ambraelle wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
I have a better idea: don't let alphas fly the Miasmos, Kryos, or Epithal. What do they need the Epithal for, anyway?

Edit: that would also mean don't let the Minmatar alphas fly the Hoarder.

Make them all ORE industrials then and leave the alphas with the basic haulers?
I wouldn't mind this change, and it would make sense lore-wise too - I think.

CCP Rise wrote:

Some of us like this option a lot - unfortunately it would mean doing the same for all t2 haulers and all t1/t2 freighters, which would be A: A giant commitment in terms of art asset creation, B: A waste of assets that already exist and C: would probably be hated by a lot of players because of how much flavor and history it would remove from the game.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Dornier Pfeil
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#23 - 2017-01-07 22:00:03 UTC
Do Little wrote:
The specialized haulers do give Gallente an advantage and I expect CCP to adjust the balance over the winter. The easiest solution would be to move Miasmos, Kyros, Epithal and Hoarder to Ore and give Alphas the ability to train Ore industrial level 1 - would also unlock Noctis and the salvaging profession. I don't think that would be a problem.


If they did this it would be nice if they gave players the option of moving the SP for Gallente Industrial over to ORE Industrial. Until such a change I would have no reason to train ORE Ind. since I have no desire to fly any of those ships but I do have Gallente Ind. trained specifically so I can fly the Miasmos. Note: I didn't say turn the SP into general points that could end up anywhere. Just some one time use item that moves them from the Gallente skill to the ORE skill on pressing of an accept button. The item could also have a decline button. After that it vanishes. No ISK value. No transferability to another player. Just a nice way for CCP to say they understand this change screws over a subset of the players and they don't want to do that.
Dior Ambraelle
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2017-01-07 23:11:13 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Some of us like this option a lot - unfortunately it would mean doing the same for all t2 haulers and all t1/t2 freighters, which would be A: A giant commitment in terms of art asset creation, B: A waste of assets that already exist and C: would probably be hated by a lot of players because of how much flavor and history it would remove from the game.

Why/how does moving the 4 special haulers to ORE affect basically every other hauler exactly?
T2 ships are the same for every faction, and I don't think freighters have anything to do with these 4.
Also,
- A: we only need 4, quite similar ships of their own class. It's a "big" work, not a "giant". I'm sure they have more important things to work on though.
- B: the Hoarder is kind of unique, but the Gallente industrials are made like lego, we could even customize their look, we wouldn't really lose anything.
- C: flavor and history, not to mention the industrialists who learned Gallente or Minmatar industrials to level 5 just to use these the most efficiently. Which they probably have done anyways to use the t2 transport ships. The only real difference is their ORE industrial skill, which is probably on level 3 only.

If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it!

But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2017-01-08 00:26:10 UTC
Dior Ambraelle wrote:
Make them all ORE industrials then and leave the alphas with the basic haulers?
I wouldn't mind this change, and it would make sense lore-wise too - I think.

I'd like to see more actual racial industrials as well, such as:
1.) frigate-sized industrial
2.) battleship-sized industrial
3.) heavily armored industrial with combat capability

I'd remove the specialized industrials entirely and add more actual industrial options.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#26 - 2017-01-08 12:34:28 UTC
So, if you bump the Epithal over to ore, how the hell do I get my hands on another occator?

And Reaver, those are called t2 haulers. or frigates with cargo expanders. You're asking for things that already exist again.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2017-01-08 19:37:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Danika Princip wrote:
So, if you bump the Epithal over to ore, how the hell do I get my hands on another occator?

And Reaver, those are called t2 haulers. or frigates with cargo expanders. You're asking for things that already exist again.

Obviously if Epithal became an ORE ship, it would have its hull completely redesigned. Occator need not change.


Blockade Runners are NOT frigates. They have cruiser align time, cruiser sig radius, cruiser hit points, cruiser max velocity, cruiser mass, industrial volume, enough powergrid for cruiser defenses, and their cargohold is a bit large for a frigate. They have tech 2 cruiser price. The only thing frigate-like about them is their slot layout. Orcas have a cruiser slot layout, but you wouldn't call them a cruiser, would you?

I want an industrial that aligns twice as fast as a BR, has half the sig radius, a third of the hit points, twice the max velocity, a tenth the mass, half the packaged volume, a tenth of the powergrid, and a quarter of the cargohold, all for a fifth of the price. Or make it tech 1, take off the covert ops bonus, and put it under a mil. What's so unreasonable about that?


Danika Princip wrote:
You're asking for things that already exist again.

I have been accused of this many times, but it has NEVER happened.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#28 - 2017-01-08 19:48:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Danika Princip
If the occator need not change, how do I actually get another one, given that it is a gallente T2 variant of a ship that you don't want to be gallente anymore?

You want an industrial that aligns in under two seconds, outruns literally everything that isn't an interceptor, carries over 1km3 and is, essentially, untouchable in a way that even a well flown blockade runner can't match. For under 25 mil. And is still cloaky. Or for under 1 mil without the cloak. What is NOT unreasonable about that? That makes travelceptors look balanced.

And your BS industrial is an orca, and your tanky industrial is a DST. Please feel free to completely redefine the concept of tanky and battleship sized, they way you usually do.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2017-01-08 20:32:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Danika Princip wrote:
You want an industrial that aligns in under two seconds, outruns literally everything that isn't an interceptor, carries over 1km3 and is, essentially, untouchable in a way that even a well flown blockade runner can't match. For under 25 mil. And is still cloaky. Or for under 1 mil without the cloak. What is NOT unreasonable about that? That makes travelceptors look balanced.

Sure, let's just spew out a bunch of subjective descriptions about the ship's absolute stats and completely ignore how it performs relative to existing ships.

Frigates align in under 3 seconds when fit for agility, but they can carry over 1000m3 when fit for cargo. What I'm suggesting is merely specialized toward hauling, and thus would have a larger carrying capacity than a probe frigate. How does it have anything to do with travelceptors?

Also, I gave approximate attributes. Who says it'll align in under 2 seconds? It depends on its exact attributes. But more importantly, why is that such a bad thing? It's not bubble immune, it's not cloaky, and it doesn't have a lot of hit points. Or are you trying to suggest that T1 frigates are overpowered?



Danika Princip wrote:
And your BS industrial is an orca, and your tanky industrial is a DST. Please feel free to completely redefine the concept of tanky and battleship sized, they way you usually do.

Orca is a miniature capital ship, DST is a tech II battlecruiser-sized industrial. I want a tech 1 battleship-sized industrial, a combat-oriented industrial, a frigate-sized industrial (both tech 1 and tech 2), and a light freighter that hauls significantly more than a DST and isn't specialized as a command ship. None of these exist and they would fill huge gaps in the ship lineup.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Dior Ambraelle
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2017-01-08 21:40:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Dior Ambraelle
Danika Princip wrote:
So, if you bump the Epithal over to ore, how the hell do I get my hands on another occator?

Sorry, but I can't follow your logic here.
The suggestion is to move the Miasmos, Epithal, Kryos and Hoarder (do we even need this ship?) to the ORE industrials group. Every other industrial - the rest of the t1 haulers, the t2 haulers, the freighters and jump freighters - would remain as they are right now.
This would also prevent alpha clones from using these ships.

If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it!

But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#31 - 2017-01-08 21:45:41 UTC
Dior Ambraelle wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
So, if you bump the Epithal over to ore, how the hell do I get my hands on another occator?

Sorry, but I can't follow your logic here.
The suggestion is to move the Miasmos, Epithal, Kryos and Hoarder (do we even need this ship?) to the ORE industrials group. Every other industrial - the rest of the t1 haulers, the t2 haulers, the freighters and jump freighters - would remain as they are right now.
This would also prevent alpha clones from using these ships.


So ORE, which is a separate racial line, would contain the t1 version of a gallente t2 ship? Something which occurs in precisely zero other places?
Dior Ambraelle
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2017-01-08 22:09:43 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Dior Ambraelle wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
So, if you bump the Epithal over to ore, how the hell do I get my hands on another occator?

Sorry, but I can't follow your logic here.
The suggestion is to move the Miasmos, Epithal, Kryos and Hoarder (do we even need this ship?) to the ORE industrials group. Every other industrial - the rest of the t1 haulers, the t2 haulers, the freighters and jump freighters - would remain as they are right now.
This would also prevent alpha clones from using these ships.


So ORE, which is a separate racial line, would contain the t1 version of a gallente t2 ship? Something which occurs in precisely zero other places?

So...


Every other faction is using their "fast" hauler as the base of their DST, but Gallente decided to use the PI ship?
Does anyone have any facepalms I can borrow?

If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it!

But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#33 - 2017-01-08 22:15:02 UTC
Relic of the old lineup. Other races using their tanky hauler for the DST doesn't really mean a lot when two of them only have two hauler hulls.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2017-01-09 00:42:59 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
So ORE, which is a separate racial line, would contain the t1 version of a gallente t2 ship? Something which occurs in precisely zero other places?

Obviously the T2 BPCs would come from researching Iteron V, which its model should be migrated to anyway, I think. But it doesn't have to have the same base model as its T1 counterpart. The Bustard uses the Badger Mk III model which isn't even used on a T1 ship.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Kaia Lin Garemoko
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2017-02-23 18:52:17 UTC
Simply remove the Industrial racial restriction from Alpha accounts.

Right now Alphas can use all races' Corvettes and Shuttles. Just add T1 Industrials to that list.
Cade Windstalker
#36 - 2017-02-23 19:00:30 UTC
blargderp wrote:
last I checked alpha clones only got their faction's indy up to level one, so the gap between the miasmos and any other alpha accessible indy with cargo expanders isn't all that huge. I agree that it does provide another advantage to gallente alphas though. none of this would be a problem if the racial restrictions were lifted however.


As soon as you lift the racial restrictions though you can train a lot more combat-focused skills on a single character, and you either open up Pirate Faction stuff to Alphas or you have to line-item restrict it in a way that isn't intuitive just based on trainable skills.

I'd agree that the hauler imbalance is an issue, but for once I'd actually prefer that CCP take the option that produces more work for them, because lifting racial restrictions would produce more issues down the line.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2017-02-23 20:50:13 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
blargderp wrote:
last I checked alpha clones only got their faction's indy up to level one, so the gap between the miasmos and any other alpha accessible indy with cargo expanders isn't all that huge. I agree that it does provide another advantage to gallente alphas though. none of this would be a problem if the racial restrictions were lifted however.


As soon as you lift the racial restrictions though you can train a lot more combat-focused skills on a single character, and you either open up Pirate Faction stuff to Alphas or you have to line-item restrict it in a way that isn't intuitive just based on trainable skills.

I'd agree that the hauler imbalance is an issue, but for once I'd actually prefer that CCP take the option that produces more work for them, because lifting racial restrictions would produce more issues down the line.

The best suggestion I have read was to make the specialized haulers require racial industrial 2, barring them from all Alpha access.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#38 - 2017-02-23 21:14:34 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

The best suggestion I have read was to make the specialized haulers require racial industrial 2, barring them from all Alpha access.


Simple, elegant, fair.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Cade Windstalker
#39 - 2017-02-23 21:18:03 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

The best suggestion I have read was to make the specialized haulers require racial industrial 2, barring them from all Alpha access.


Simple, elegant, fair.


I dunno, I think I'd personally go the other way, and let Alphas train any race's Industrial but nothing else to 1 so they can use anything.

Does anyone have a particularly compelling reason Alphas shouldn't be able to use the specialized haulers? Especially the Ore one?

By my estimation the only thing it does is allow them to risk more for the potential for greater rewards, since the specialist ships don't come close to matching Freighter volume and an Alpha clone can't fit too much in the way of tank.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#40 - 2017-02-23 23:05:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
The specialised haulers can fit for tank, speed and evasion all at once without sacrificing capacity. Imo they are broken and remove choice. If i could I'd have them just deleted for everyone, not just alphas.

I believe an alpha can still get 20k ehp out of them. Though id need to double check. But putting their requirements up isn't really to do with any of that. It's just a super easy fix to what i see as whining that wouldn't even exist if we had dealt with superfluous haulers properly.

Edit-

Ah crap. Just remembered, ccp have a rule of 'if you could fly it before, you can fly it after changes',

Kinda torpedoes that solution.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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