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When NPCs become detrimental to PVP

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Shayla Etherodyne
Delta Laroth Industries
#61 - 2016-12-30 22:22:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Shayla Etherodyne
Railyn Quisqueya wrote:
Easy fix is for NPC's to cease all activities when player with negative standings warps in so that he may gank in peace. Once he leaves, NPC's may go about their business.


LOL, so I jump a character with negative standing in any engagement with NPC and now they become dead on water and I can kill them at leisure? WOW, do that. Roll
Even better, all the damage dealt by NPC should be immediately healed, you know, to remove the NPC factor. Cool


Or better: Don't do that.


morion wrote:


Moving that DCM to a distinct corp from player join able and keeping there function.


That is a reasonable solution.
Shayla Etherodyne
Delta Laroth Industries
#62 - 2016-12-30 22:29:15 UTC
Torin Corax wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
Torin Corax wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
NPC's have always been screwing with PvP. There is little difference; if anything these are easier to evade.

What really makes no sense is when you warp into a mission and start attacking the mission runner, and all the NPC's turn on you when you are killing the ship that has just been obliterating them.....


Alternatively you uncloak in a low sec annom, use neuts to turn off the tank of the Vexor that was running the site and watch the NPC's kill him.


From my experience activating any kind of ewar (neuts/scram/web) in the presence of NPCs will get most of them to instantly aggress you. So unless the Vexor has been using it's own ewar then they will switch to you.

The aggression formula is slightly more complicated than that, but as soon as you scram the enemy you are hunting, it spikes the NPC agro towards you which can be annoying when PvPing and makes little sense from the NPC's perspective as you are scramming the person who is shooting them.

If anything needs changing to help small scale PvP then it is this mechanic. Hopefully all NPC AI will be improved at some point in the future....

As for the mining fleet issue, it does seem to give an unfair advantage to some NPC corps over the others. Perhaps either every starter corp should be a mining corp or none at all. Or alternatively if joining an npc mining corp was down to a player choice with benefits and drawbacks, rather than whether you luckily picked the right corp when you started your character.


I've been away from eve for a while, so the AI may operate as you say, however I was not using the vexor example out of nowhere. It was my first kill after returning to the game, and I did not notice a switch in AI priority until after the Vexor went down.

I'm not fully up to speed on any changes thay may of been made to AI target priority, although it does seem that they are more likely to switch on to my drones than I remember.

Either way, what I dislike the most about this is the one-sided nature of it. If pirate AI will switch targets between players then neither player has any great advantage, fine. However (and I'm only going by what the OP has stated here, as I've yet to see it for myself), the NPC mining support fleet is very one-sided, and from what I have seen they are far more dangerous as a group than most other low sec NPC's to a solo player.

This might be a very small problem at the moment. But this is eve, as soon as people figure out how to take advantage of this on a larger scale I'd expect there to be quite a few alphas/ alts cropping up in low sec as members of DCM. Maybe a nice little boon for those who like to hunt in gangs, but does ganging up really need more encouragement ?

Like I said, I'm not much for solo hunting, so probably wouldn't be a major issue for me, but that doesn't mean I'm happy about something that I honestly feel has no place in Low sec or Null.


NPC switch target after a time if the target has high resistance against their kind of damage. It was done as a method to improve their AI years ago.
If your neuts caused the Vexor tank to drop the net effect would be to confirm it as the preferred target.
For the guy using his scrambler, probably his ship had weak resistances against the NPCs, so when they switched target and found that he had weak reists, they concentrated on him.



Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2016-12-30 23:18:47 UTC
Dungheap wrote:
i looked up one of op's DCM kills , and it seems it was a ratting condor , and guristas were also on the kill mail .

don't you think it was unfair of you to kill him while he was taking npc fire ?

what about npc switching targets and prioritizing gankers due to the use of ewar , is that fair ? i seem to recall a fair bit of tears as people lamented the npc no longer helping them , and in fact now having to deal with the npc switching targets .

pve'r get npc interference while being attacked by players , they deal with it . why shouldn't you ?


NPCs can get on killmails whether they were part of the engagement the victim died in, or aggressed them a few minutes before the engagement they died in took place. I'm not sure exactly what kill you're talking about, but I can tell you many stories of targets that have escaped after I was jammed by Guristas rats. Once again though, you're talking about the regular belt rats. I'm not.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2016-12-30 23:29:21 UTC
Marcus Binchiette wrote:
OP. You are suffering from the delusion that combat should take place in a vacuum absent of external factors. You are also suffering from the notion that there is nothing which you can do about it. One of the most fundamental aspects of combat is keeping awareness of your surroundings. If you failed to notice the hostile NPC, or chose to do battle in those areas where they would appear, then guess what? You just gimped your own chances of winning that fight, because, you didn't pay attention to your surroundings.


Actually, if you actually read what I've written, you'll see I have no delusions at all, and that I can adapt to this just fine. I have outlined the problems and concerns this situation raises, as well as solutions, but in no way whatsoever does this mean I cannot adapt. I have been adapting to changing PVP circumstances for a long time now without an issue, but I take issue with this one because it is different, as I have explained in my OP.

People keep throwing this 'consequences' thing at me as if they think I haven't addressed that. I have. I have absolutely no problem with consequences. The consequences for attacking someone illegally in high sec is CONCORD.

As for 'awareness of my surroundings', I can dscan a belt all day before I make an attack on whoever's in there. If the NPCs mining fleet lands while the fight is going on, that fight then gets determined by NPCs, regardless of any measures I took beforehand. I didn't set up that situation, and my opponent didn't set up that situation. It wasn't determined by guile, it was determined by RNG.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Grigg Skjellerup
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#65 - 2016-12-30 23:51:52 UTC
Didn't know that happened.

Seems a bit silly that one? out of 16 possible NPC corps that players can join has NPC mining fleets.

On the other hand, players don't get a direct benefit from being in that NPC corp. Players get a benefit if the person shooting them is disliked by that NPC corp. So it just becomes one more thing to think about, that maybe you mine with an NPC fleet, makes you very slightly safer, that they sort of kind of act like gate guns.

On the other other hand, maybe there becomes an indirect long term benefit to being in that particular NPC corp, as players avoid shooting you so their standings stay ok and they're free to shoot everyone else.

It seems like one more thing that unexpected stuff might emerge from. But it would make sense that there be some interaction between players and NPCs of the 16 joinable NPC corps, not just one of them. Either that or there be none of the joinable corps involved, but you may still experience the RNG of a fleet warping in and deciding a fight if you've been hunting NPC miners enough to draw the ire of their corp.
Specia1 K
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#66 - 2016-12-31 00:33:38 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Marcus Binchiette wrote:
OP. You are suffering from the delusion that combat should take place in a vacuum absent of external factors. You are also suffering from the notion that there is nothing which you can do about it. One of the most fundamental aspects of combat is keeping awareness of your surroundings. If you failed to notice the hostile NPC, or chose to do battle in those areas where they would appear, then guess what? You just gimped your own chances of winning that fight, because, you didn't pay attention to your surroundings.


Actually, if you actually read what I've written, you'll see I have no delusions at all, and that I can adapt to this just fine. I have outlined the problems and concerns this situation raises, as well as solutions, but in no way whatsoever does this mean I cannot adapt. I have been adapting to changing PVP circumstances for a long time now without an issue, but I take issue with this one because it is different, as I have explained in my OP.

People keep throwing this 'consequences' thing at me as if they think I haven't addressed that. I have. I have absolutely no problem with consequences. The consequences for attacking someone illegally in high sec is CONCORD.

As for 'awareness of my surroundings', I can dscan a belt all day before I make an attack on whoever's in there. If the NPCs mining fleet lands while the fight is going on, that fight then gets determined by NPCs, regardless of any measures I took beforehand. I didn't set up that situation, and my opponent didn't set up that situation. It wasn't determined by guile, it was determined by RNG.


It does create some interesting scenarios though. What if you were good standings with the NPC corp, and your opponent too. Would the NPC ships then assist a)both b)neither c)one side.

If you 'fix' your standings, will you then use this as an advantage?
I wouldBlink

Champion of the Knights of the General Discussion

Thunderdome
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
The Conference
#67 - 2016-12-31 00:39:24 UTC
The standing loss is completely silly even before the NPC mining fleets this made no sense. If some NPC corp player attacks you because you are suspect or in a duel and you kil him, bamm.. corp standing gone...

I doubt CCP will fix this before it is used for evil. But I am sure we can work something out here. What if I put suicide gank chars in those corps? Will AG get a standing hit if they whore on the CONCORD killmail? Can we drag a mining responce fleet to another location in the system? Sisi is not working for me at the moment, but I am sure there is some potential here.

Evil RatKid
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2016-12-31 00:48:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
The standing loss is completely silly even before the NPC mining fleets this made no sense. If some NPC corp player attacks you because you are suspect or in a duel and you kil him, bamm.. corp standing gone...

I doubt CCP will fix this before it is used for evil. But I am sure we can work something out here. What if I put suicide gank chars in those corps? Will AG get a standing hit if they whore on the CONCORD killmail? Can we drag a mining responce fleet to another location in the system? Sisi is not working for me at the moment, but I am sure there is some potential here.


I've already thought of this and I'm making a new alpha this week sometime to join DCM for ganking with you guys ^_^ got a bit of war stuff to handle before I get distracted by that, but I'll be seeing you all soon.

EDIT: Actually, I have some time this afternoon to make the toon and get him skill training ASAP.

SECOND EDIT: just realised it'll have to be subbed, not alpha. To get a toon into DCM, you have to be Deteis, which is caldari. Not a huge kink, I have a few plex lying around, and now training will be faster ^_^

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Railyn Quisqueya
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#69 - 2016-12-31 02:42:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Railyn Quisqueya
Shayla Etherodyne wrote:
Railyn Quisqueya wrote:
Easy fix is for NPC's to cease all activities when player with negative standings warps in so that he may gank in peace. Once he leaves, NPC's may go about their business.


LOL, so I jump a character with negative standing in any engagement with NPC and now they become dead on water and I can kill them at leisure? WOW, do that. Roll
Even better, all the damage dealt by NPC should be immediately healed, you know, to remove the NPC factor. Cool


Or better: Don't do that.


morion wrote:


Moving that DCM to a distinct corp from player join able and keeping there function.


That is a reasonable solution.

I was actually being sarcastic P. My post was meant to highlight the absurdity of the OP. If it had been a miner asking for a change to the way NPC's behave to his favor he would have been burned alive within the first 10 posts, probably by the same posters agreeing with the OP.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2016-12-31 02:59:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Railyn Quisqueya wrote:
Shayla Etherodyne wrote:
Railyn Quisqueya wrote:
Easy fix is for NPC's to cease all activities when player with negative standings warps in so that he may gank in peace. Once he leaves, NPC's may go about their business.


LOL, so I jump a character with negative standing in any engagement with NPC and now they become dead on water and I can kill them at leisure? WOW, do that. Roll
Even better, all the damage dealt by NPC should be immediately healed, you know, to remove the NPC factor. Cool


Or better: Don't do that.


morion wrote:


Moving that DCM to a distinct corp from player join able and keeping there function.


That is a reasonable solution.

I was actually being sarcastic P. My post was meant to highlight the absurdity of the OP. If it had been a miner asking for a change to the way NPC's behave to his favor he would have been burned alive within the first 10 posts, probably by the same posters agreeing with the OP.


I'm not asking for a change to NPCs in my favour. I'm actually asking for the opposite, because right now they work in favour of a select group of people. I'm asking that they not favour anyone. Have you even read the post? The replies? You clearly don't understand the mechanics at work here and you are strawmanning my position by claiming that I am asking for a change of NPC behaviour in my favour. I am not, because as it stands, I can use these NPCs to work in my favour. And I SHOULD NOT be able to, nor anyone else.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Railyn Quisqueya
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#71 - 2016-12-31 03:11:24 UTC
You are asking for a change in mechanics to your favor. You can dress this pig however you like. But in essence, that is exactly what it is.

This mechanic has been around for decades. Standing loss has always been a consequence to player actions. You want it changed to your favor so that you can continue your actions without consequences. Like I said, go ahead and put lipstick on the pig and tell me how that works out for you.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2016-12-31 03:21:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Railyn Quisqueya wrote:
You are asking for a change in mechanics to your favor. You can dress this pig however you like. But in essence, that is exactly what it is.

This mechanic has been around for decades. Standing loss has always been a consequence to player actions. You want it changed to your favor so that you can continue your actions without consequences. Like I said, go ahead and put lipstick on the pig and tell me how that works out for you.


The fact you think I'm asking for mechanics that favour me shows how little you understand the mechanics. No, this mechanics has not been around for decades, the new NPCs are... wait for it.... NEW. And if you think my actions do not have consequences, think again. Do you know what sec status is? Do you know what cyno bait is? Do you know how to make friends? Do you even have a clue what consequences I'm alluding to? Doubt it, given your limited (if not non-existent) understanding of the mechanics being discussed.

I suggest you read the posts directly above your first, because as it stands, I CAN USE THIS MECHANIC IN MY FAVOUR, AND TO THE DETRIMENT OF OTHERS. What I'm saying is, it shouldn't be that way, and as long as it remains this way, that's exactly how I'm going to play it. Pay attention.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Chopper Rollins
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#73 - 2016-12-31 04:43:35 UTC
Standings are a great mechanic to eject players from Empire space entirely.
If you want to do missions for pirate factions in npc null, it's better if you leave Empire sooner, not later.
Re: OP. I can see how this new wrinkle to lowsec could be a stifling headache but on the whole i like it, attacking people should attract trouble, at least where there is local might and control.


Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
Omar Alharazaad
New Eden Tech Support
#74 - 2016-12-31 06:15:32 UTC
Interesting.
So, being that I have the mad faction with DCM, I could theoretically find one of their mining fleets and use that belt for suspect baiting... and once someone bites have my alt trigger the combat fleet's response?
I then would get a friendly NPC fleet to provide me with free logi?

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
Eve Griefer
Doomheim
#75 - 2016-12-31 06:20:30 UTC
FWIW, being shot when criminal doesn't seem to have affected my accomplice's standings with DCM.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#76 - 2016-12-31 06:26:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
Interesting.
So, being that I have the mad faction with DCM, I could theoretically find one of their mining fleets and use that belt for suspect baiting... and once someone bites have my alt trigger the combat fleet's response?
I then would get a friendly NPC fleet to provide me with free logi?

Yes, that's correct.

If you build up standings and find a belt with the relevant NPC Corp mining fleet, since the latest release, the response fleet will assist you with logistic support.

What I'm not sure about is if they will assist you if you are suspect baiting, since anyone engaging you would be doing so completely legally. So it might only work that way if someone aggresses illegally (I'd need to test on SiSi to answer with certainty).

Either way, that's good emergent gameplay. I can't see it being used much, but I kind of hope it is. That sort of positive use of the mechanic is a good thing, as sucky as it would be for someone like me that can't be bothered with standings.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#77 - 2016-12-31 06:32:56 UTC
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
Interesting.
So, being that I have the mad faction with DCM, I could theoretically find one of their mining fleets and use that belt for suspect baiting... and once someone bites have my alt trigger the combat fleet's response?
I then would get a friendly NPC fleet to provide me with free logi?


Precisely. Please do it. Often.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Eternus8lux8lucis
Guardians of the Gate
RAZOR Alliance
#78 - 2016-12-31 06:33:38 UTC
Podding anyone in an NPC corp will trash your standings with that corp fast. Trust me on this. One pod kill and my alt was -5 to DCM. Legit crimewatch flagged podding.

So I am quite interested in the topic at hand and some of the later ideas already ran through my head earlier too.Blink

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.
Omar Alharazaad
New Eden Tech Support
#79 - 2016-12-31 06:34:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Omar Alharazaad
This merits further research....

FOR SCIENCE!

Edit: I'm not just being flippant here, honestly.
I will have to dink around with this a bit to see just how much this can be manipulated by a player with high standings.
I have my suspicions, but it seems possible that this is something that a segment of the populace can use to generate a huge advantage in PVP engagements, within limited areas and times.
I'm very curious as to how they're going to respond to suspect timers, limited engagements and whatnot.

There's enough rage out there about neutral logi as it is, now it comes in NPC form with a kill fleet attached.
Not so sure I'm okay with that.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#80 - 2016-12-31 08:19:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Tipa Riot
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
The standing loss is completely silly even before the NPC mining fleets this made no sense. If some NPC corp player attacks you because you are suspect or in a duel and you kil him, bamm.. corp standing gone...

I doubt CCP will fix this before it is used for evil. But I am sure we can work something out here. What if I put suicide gank chars in those corps? Will AG get a standing hit if they whore on the CONCORD killmail? Can we drag a mining responce fleet to another location in the system? Sisi is not working for me at the moment, but I am sure there is some potential here.

There should be a rule to have all ganking alts in DCM and then let you pod by players as often as possible (hope it works also with criminal flag, not sure) ... tears would be guaranteed, which may help the case.

I'm my own NPC alt.