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Cyno Balance

Author
Lugh Crow-Slave
#41 - 2017-01-10 08:04:46 UTC
James Zimmer wrote:
Jerghul wrote:
The core problem seems to be the extraction. Increase risk by using a cloak timer.

IF you use a cyno, THEN you cannot cloak for an undefined period of time.

This method hits risk versus reward by increasing risk instead of decreasing reward.

It also goes well with a cloaking module rethink that is due soon anyway.


I like that as an alternate solution, though I think it would need some refinement. All I can picture now is ships rage warping between safes until the timer expires.



or if you warp to the cyno you can de-cloak them pretty easy considering they wont have much time to move off it.....
GROUND XERO
I n e r t i a
#42 - 2017-01-10 09:32:11 UTC
cyno rebalance part(no clue)

Check this out!

And of course ...i´m still missing my high slot modul, which makes it impossible to light a cyno in an area of the effect, soo pls finally give me one!

-YES I KNOW THERE ARE JAMMERS (ONE FOR SOV AND ONE TO ANCHOR ....but did you ever tried to take one for a roam???? And nowdays it is raining carriers and roquals ..GG)

THX!!!

NCPL (Necromonger of new Eden) will make EVE great again!

Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#43 - 2017-01-10 19:13:21 UTC
Cynos are unbalanced.
Local is unbalanced.

Together they are 100% balanced.


Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

Sitting Bull Lakota
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#44 - 2017-01-12 09:21:40 UTC
What exactly do you, OP, have against capital escalation?
Why exactly do you, OP, desire a very powerful GTFO warning siren for ratters?
How many anomalies have you, OP, refrained from running due to a Schrödinger's AFK Cloaky?
How many hours exactly have you, OP, spent camping a gate only to see "cyno" in your intel channel?

In essence, why do you, OP, want to take the best counter to Sov dominion and yank the rug out from under it?
I'm genuinely curious. I read your proposal and some of your follow ups, and the impression I'm left with is that you want SOV space to be safer for its residents.
Mala Zvitorepka
Karthen-Woight
#45 - 2017-01-12 14:04:48 UTC
I like the idea to change cyno, as I find cyno mechanic idiotic. There could and should be something better than to counter a hot drop with your own.
Sure, after the change ganking potential is 0 and you have an extremely niche ship.

To make them generally useful, you need to nerf local. For example:
Everyone sees all the people that said anything in the last 10 minutes and are still present (to enable communication) +
a. People in station see others in the station they are in.
b. Undocked (except WH) see total number of people in the system (docked + undocked). Total number is subject to a few minutes delay.
c. WH people see nothing, like now.
I would prefer to add dscan data to local as well to remove the need to spam it, but for that dscan needs to be reworked too - it would bring down servers. That will have to wait for another suggestion. Or, simply remove dscan, problem solved :D

---

There is another possible cyno rework:
Cyno ship needs to keep at max X km from the cyno to keep it maintained, with cyno subject to say 30s delay and another 30s duration. For the cyno delay and duration, ship cannot receive remote assistance, dock, jump, warp or cloak. Blops cyno then doesn't have further penalties, while normal cyno would make ship jammed and prevent using any offensive modules.
All ships jumping through a cyno are subject to the cyno penalty for the same 30s (= for blops, they won't be able to dock, warp etc, while non-blops will also have to wait before they can fight)
If you get out of range of either cyno you keep penalties, but make cyno useless.

And here you have it - cyno problem solved in a different way. Probably more broken one, but it does have bright sides too: Target has a meaningful delay between a single weak-ish cloaky opponent and tons of ships melting his ass. He can try to run away (because blops is tied to be near the cyno position), or attempt destroying the ship. He can even light his own normal cyno and counter hotdrop (well, cold-drop) with his own. Normal cyno might bring more powerful ships, but blops can fight for that 1m cyno and help will also have 30s fighting advantage.

And if you feel JC or transports are too unsafe, you can easily give them a role bonus of "no cyno warp/dock/... penalty" and solve this. The only remaining problem for them is getting cyno up.
The only problem is that it will make MS ganking impossible - you can't pin them down. But they are annoying to kill in such a drop already because of counterdrop, so I don't think this is a huge loss.

But even with or without cyno change one way or another, I strongly advocate for local nerf. Those stealth ships are, instead of roaming hit and run nasties, nearly the most stationary ones with the main action being jump.
Deckel
Island Paradise
#46 - 2017-01-15 19:49:14 UTC
Another possible way to rework cyno could be to prevent the activation of the module when the ship is within a bubble or when they are Scrammed. If the module has already been activated, and then a bubble/scram gets applied this causes any ship that jumps after this point to land randomly within grid or within a 1000km radius.

With this mechanic cyno pilots must be relatively clear of engagement before they can initiate a hotdrop, and delaying incoming ships becomes possible if you can jam/bubble the cyno in time. Smaller ships that jump in together will still be able to engage the blob quickly by warping in, but it will give the defending group time to breathe as a jumping capital would be too slow to properly engage. Or would the opposition jumping in at range be more of a benefit for them than a detriment?
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#47 - 2017-01-15 21:12:34 UTC
[quote=Deckel]Another possible way to rework cyno could be to prevent the activation of the module when the ship is within a bubble or when they are Scrammed. If the module has already been activated, and then a bubble/scram gets applied this causes any ship that jumps after this point to land randomly within grid or within a 1000km radius.[quote]

Yes, because gate camping needs to be buffed and made less risky. Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#48 - 2017-01-16 06:30:47 UTC
Mala Zvitorepka wrote:
I like the idea to change cyno, as I find cyno mechanic idiotic. There could and should be something better than to counter a hot drop with your own.


That's the best solution, but there are lots of other solutions:

A)Don't get caught. It is trivially easy not to get caught by a hunter, and even easier to not get caught by bait.

B)Bring ECM/Neuts. Break tackle, walk away.

C)Fly quick things/nano-gang. No one wants to drop a nano-gang - you can't catch or hold anything long enough for cyno tactics to work (mostly).

D)Rat in a PVP fit ship. You'd be surprised what you can do.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#49 - 2017-01-16 08:33:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2017-01-16 08:45:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Mala Zvitorepka wrote:
I like the idea to change cyno, as I find cyno mechanic idiotic. There could and should be something better than to counter a hot drop with your own.
Sure, after the change ganking potential is 0 and you have an extremely niche ship.

To make them generally useful, you need to nerf local. For example:
Everyone sees all the people that said anything in the last 10 minutes and are still present (to enable communication) +
a. People in station see others in the station they are in.
b. Undocked (except WH) see total number of people in the system (docked + undocked). Total number is subject to a few minutes delay.
c. WH people see nothing, like now.
I would prefer to add dscan data to local as well to remove the need to spam it, but for that dscan needs to be reworked too - it would bring down servers. That will have to wait for another suggestion. Or, simply remove dscan, problem solved :D

---

There is another possible cyno rework:
Cyno ship needs to keep at max X km from the cyno to keep it maintained, with cyno subject to say 30s delay and another 30s duration. For the cyno delay and duration, ship cannot receive remote assistance, dock, jump, warp or cloak. Blops cyno then doesn't have further penalties, while normal cyno would make ship jammed and prevent using any offensive modules.
All ships jumping through a cyno are subject to the cyno penalty for the same 30s (= for blops, they won't be able to dock, warp etc, while non-blops will also have to wait before they can fight)
If you get out of range of either cyno you keep penalties, but make cyno useless.

And here you have it - cyno problem solved in a different way. Probably more broken one, but it does have bright sides too: Target has a meaningful delay between a single weak-ish cloaky opponent and tons of ships melting his ass. He can try to run away (because blops is tied to be near the cyno position), or attempt destroying the ship. He can even light his own normal cyno and counter hotdrop (well, cold-drop) with his own. Normal cyno might bring more powerful ships, but blops can fight for that 1m cyno and help will also have 30s fighting advantage.

And if you feel JC or transports are too unsafe, you can easily give them a role bonus of "no cyno warp/dock/... penalty" and solve this. The only remaining problem for them is getting cyno up.
The only problem is that it will make MS ganking impossible - you can't pin them down. But they are annoying to kill in such a drop already because of counterdrop, so I don't think this is a huge loss.

But even with or without cyno change one way or another, I strongly advocate for local nerf. Those stealth ships are, instead of roaming hit and run nasties, nearly the most stationary ones with the main action being jump.

Anyway ignoring the trolls and stupids -

I don't think cyno's need a incredibly complex fix - consider cloaking ships.

A non covert ops cloaking ship has a minimum delay I think starting at around 30 seconds. Cloaking ships are easily argued to be less dangerous than an ibis with a cyno and a fleet in range. Given that simply giving cynoing ships a similiar recalibration delay after cynoing is a simple and elegent solution.

A covert ship has a minimum cloaking delay of around 5 seconds - given these ships using a cyno the same recalibration delay for jumping is likewise a small but elegant solution.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

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