These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Intergalactic Summit

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
123Next page
 

On the realignment of my crew structure

Author
Wren Villeneuve
Akagi Initiative
#1 - 2016-12-20 17:30:16 UTC
The following serves as a public statement about the realignment of my crew structure towards a voluntary co-operative, posted for the benefits of my employees, in recognition towards my personal ideal of openness and transparency it is available for public view.

1) On Hierarchy;
There is a certain inevitable hierarchy that will arise due to my nature as a capsuleer and your nature as crew; With the publication of this document I am hereby announcing my intention towards the minimization of the effects of this natural hierarchy towards a flatter, worker focused structure.

2) On discrimination, and Open and Voluntary membership within the organization hereby termed thereafter as 'The Cooperative';
All members of the cooperative have the right, upon agreeing to the principles laid out in this document, to join or leave The Cooperative as they see fit. The Cooperative will not discriminate on membership on any basis of Gender and Sexuality, or Religion, or Race. All members of The Cooperative hereby agree to abide by these principles in full, both in letter and spirit of this founding document. There will be no discrimination on the basis of class or category.

3) On rewards for membership, and Democratic control of the Cooperative;
All members of the cooperative agreeing to abide by the terms of this document in letter and spirit are hereby granted one share within the Cooperative. This share entitles the member to one vote on any matter pertaining to The Cooperative, in addition to whatever financial value it holds through the labour of the collective members of The Cooperative. Votes will be called for any matter involving the overall status of the Cooperative including the formation or joining of any Capsuleer corporations hereafter. A member of the Cooperative, upon deciding to leave the Cooperative will sell their share for a commensurate amount of planetary currency of their choice.

3.1) The exception for military personnel;
In recognition of the fact that military situations involving the potential destruction of the ship, and in recognition of the fact that the capsuleer member of the Cooperative is in ultimate control of the ship, members of the Cooperative joining the crew of any militarily equipped vessel owned by the Cooperative and the capsuleer member agree to follow the orders of the Capsuleer during any period of violent conflict, either ship based or otherwise, and will have voting rights related to the conflict suspeneded until immediate hostilities are ceased.

3.2) On voting;
Direct democracy being a sufficient and ideal system for the operation of the Cooperative, all members of The Cooperative up to and including the Capsuleer member agree to hold to the results of any referendums held. All referendums will have voting be made mandatory. All referendums will have an 'Abstain' option which if it gains consensus will result in the recasting of the referendum, and a second vote. In cases where more than two options exist, referendums will be cast with a Single Transferable Vote and ranked voting preferences. The Capsuleer member of the Cooperative holds one vote. Non-capsuleer members of the cooperative hold one vote.

3.3) ISK and Planetary currency;
The majority of the money earned as ISK will go into the Cooperative for expansion of activities both immediate and ephemeral, subject to votes and referendum as outlined in 3.2. In acknowledgement of the fact that ISK is not generally accepted as a currency for non-capsuleer members for general purchases, non-Capsuleer members of the Cooperative will be compensated in planetary currency of their choice, either into a personal account or a third party account as outlined by the member.

4) Autonomy and independence;
All agreements entered into by the Cooperative must be designed in such a manner as to maintain the democratic control of the Cooperative. If outside capital is raised through any manner unrelated to the labour of the non-Capsuleer members of the cooperative it must be done in such a manner as to maintain the democratic nature of the cooperative.

5) Education, training, and information;
The Cooperative is responsible for providing training and education necessary to the operation of the Cooperative and for the general betterment of the individual members. University educations in the sciences, the social sciences, and the trades will be provided for the members and the immediate family of the members if asked.

5.1) Freedom of information;
The Cooperative is aligned with the idea of absolute freedom of information to all members of the Cooperative except where such information would cause unnecessary risk to the lives of other members of the Cooperative or any allies thereof.

6) Cooperation with other Cooperatives;
The Cooperative is, in general, aligned with other Cooperatives otherwise unrelated to The Cooperative, except in cases where such Cooperation has been determined by referendum by the majority of the members to be against the letter and spirit of this document. Such non-cooperation will be made to be public knowledge by the Cooperative.

7) Concern for the Community
The Cooperative works with members of the community in its immediate environs generally towards goals of the improvement of humanity as a whole, social justice, and the general uplift of humanity into the transhuman era.

---

Any member of the entity soon to be constituted as The Cooperative who does not wish to abide by the letter and spirit of this document will have their employment contracts terminated and a fair termination fee in planetary currency of their choice provided.

Thank you.
Zenda Villeneuve
Capsuleer member of the Cooperative
Ayallah
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2016-12-20 17:50:52 UTC
The people monitoring active and non automated systems are not the ship and modules. It is not the hull.

This collective overvalues the opinions of engine technicians and medical officers and relies only on a promise that it will not be used improperly. I suggest you stick with the authoritarian position of being physically capable of venting atmosphere if you need to maintain your control of the ship or you might have crowbars at your pod doors before long.

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.

Wren Villeneuve
Akagi Initiative
#3 - 2016-12-20 17:52:57 UTC
Ayallah wrote:
The people monitoring active and non automated systems are not the ship and modules. It is not the hull.

This collective overvalues the opinions of engine technicians and medical officers and relies only on a promise that it will not be used improperly. I suggest you stick with the authoritarian position of being physically capable of venting atmosphere if you need to maintain your control of the ship or you might have crowbars at your pod doors before long.


Suggestion denied, emphatically.
Praevus
#4 - 2016-12-20 17:56:57 UTC
And this is why th... *cough* every critical task on the ship should be automated. This is not the age of sail.

Less Caille University. More science.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#5 - 2016-12-20 18:21:09 UTC
Praevus wrote:
This is not the age of sail.


Taken a look at the Zephyr lately?

As to this Collective... you realize you are, in fact, abdicating responsibility here, right? That you're pushing a lot of additional burden onto the shoulders of your crew under the guise of 'democracy'?

What do your hydrosystems techs know about politics in New Eden, or best trade practices? But you've got them voting on how you'll react to them.

They have jobs. Their jobs are to keep parts of the ship working, and ensure that when something needs to happen, it happens. You have a job, too. Your job is to be looking at the big picture, to be the bloody ship's captain. To lead, not to simply throw everything up to mob rule.

Your crew members don't have time for your self-indulgent feel-good crap. They have work to do, and they have areas of specialty and skill that they need to remain on top of and up-to-date with. Do you think my jump drive technicians were unaware of the plans to relax jump range limitations on capital ships? Do you think they weren't making sure they were up on all of the changes in how that would affect the ship's performance? Do you think the ship's medical personnel didn't need to keep up with those jump drive regulation changes, in order to keep up with how the longer jumps would effect the ship's biological central processing system, ie: me?

Your crew have lives. They do their jobs, they keep on top of their fields, and they don't need you making them do your job, too. Making the hard decisions is your job. What happens when, in a totally non-combat situation, they don't all agree, some of them strenuously? Do you really think you won't see serious issues develop among crewmembers who feel marginalized and discriminated against because they don't agree with most of the crew?

Should we go take part in humanitarian efforts on this world? Most of the crew says 'no', a minority of the crew decides the majority are a bunch of callous bastards who value money over human life. Or the crew votes to do it, and then the question becomes 'are we volunteering, or looking to makea profit? If we're making a profit, how much are we shaking these people down for saving their lives, getting them medical supplies, clean water, and on and on?'

How exactly are the crew going to trust one another when they spend significant chunks of every day bickering? What does the galley serve tomorrow night? Get half a dozen people to agree on just that without someone getting pissed off, and I'll be shocked.

Your crew work hard. They do their jobs. Do yours.
Wren Villeneuve
Akagi Initiative
#6 - 2016-12-20 18:25:07 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Praevus wrote:
This is not the age of sail.


Taken a look at the Zephyr lately?

As to this Collective... you realize you are, in fact, abdicating responsibility here, right? That you're pushing a lot of additional burden onto the shoulders of your crew under the guise of 'democracy'?

What do your hydrosystems techs know about politics in New Eden, or best trade practices? But you've got them voting on how you'll react to them.

They have jobs. Their jobs are to keep parts of the ship working, and ensure that when something needs to happen, it happens. You have a job, too. Your job is to be looking at the big picture, to be the bloody ship's captain. To lead, not to simply throw everything up to mob rule.

Your crew members don't have time for your self-indulgent feel-good crap. They have work to do, and they have areas of specialty and skill that they need to remain on top of and up-to-date with. Do you think my jump drive technicians were unaware of the plans to relax jump range limitations on capital ships? Do you think they weren't making sure they were up on all of the changes in how that would affect the ship's performance? Do you think the ship's medical personnel didn't need to keep up with those jump drive regulation changes, in order to keep up with how the longer jumps would effect the ship's biological central processing system, ie: me?

Your crew have lives. They do their jobs, they keep on top of their fields, and they don't need you making them do your job, too. Making the hard decisions is your job. What happens when, in a totally non-combat situation, they don't all agree, some of them strenuously? Do you really think you won't see serious issues develop among crewmembers who feel marginalized and discriminated against because they don't agree with most of the crew?

Should we go take part in humanitarian efforts on this world? Most of the crew says 'no', a minority of the crew decides the majority are a bunch of callous bastards who value money over human life. Or the crew votes to do it, and then the question becomes 'are we volunteering, or looking to makea profit? If we're making a profit, how much are we shaking these people down for saving their lives, getting them medical supplies, clean water, and on and on?'

How exactly are the crew going to trust one another when they spend significant chunks of every day bickering? What does the galley serve tomorrow night? Get half a dozen people to agree on just that without someone getting pissed off, and I'll be shocked.

Your crew work hard. They do their jobs. Do yours.


I believe that they have a desire and the ability to take responsibility for their own lives. Anyone who thinks as you do, that they are just here to do a job and receive payment is free to take their leave before this document goes into effect in two days. What I want are not employees. What I want are actualized human beings looking to work for the betterment not just of themselves, but of everyone else around them.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#7 - 2016-12-20 18:35:11 UTC
Wren Villeneuve wrote:
I believe that they have a desire and the ability to take responsibility for their own lives. Anyone who thinks as you do, that they are just here to do a job and receive payment is free to take their leave before this document goes into effect in two days. What I want are not employees. What I want are actualized human beings looking to work for the betterment not just of themselves, but of everyone else around them.


They are taking responsibility for their own lives: they're signing on to crew a ship. When they feel that's a bad bet, they'll put off at the next station and your XO will hire someone else for that job. You think employees don't care about making things better for everyone around them? Everyone around them is all they really have on-ship. 'Actualized human beings'... what a load of condescending crap. You are literally accusing every crew member on every ship that isn't yours of somehow being inferior, of being just some kind of puppet. Meanwhile, you're turning over the lives of your crew to the mob.

It's just going to be for 'any matter involving the overall status of the Cooperative', right? Who decides what constitutes a matter involving the overall status of the cooperative? What's your structure for determining if a matter is valid to vote on? If it's not, who decides? Does everyone get to vote on what's for dinner? If not, being served something they dislike might impair performance and endanger the Cooperative. Blowing up would involve the overall status of the cooperative, wouldn't it? Would a mutiny? If there's no vote on dinner, does the galley staff get to vote on what they're serving? Do departments have to be run by democratic process, or can your chief engineer say 'we're running engineering like we want the ship to actually work, with a clear chain of command and decisive focus for problem-solving'? If he tries, can the department members vote him out as Chief Engineer?

I mean, I'd think who's running the 'let's keep everyone from dying when life support fails and the engines explode' department would maybe be a matter that involves the overall status of the cooperative, no?

Lead. Earn their trust. Don't just whimper for their approval.
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#8 - 2016-12-20 18:38:00 UTC
Good thing someone said it. I nearly had a seizure trying to wrap my head around the sheer irresponsibility of this notion.
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#9 - 2016-12-20 18:46:03 UTC
A dentist shouldn't have any say on proper practices for performing brain surgery, a cook shouldn't have a say in item procurement aside from passing info. Just because they're on the ship doesn't mean they know enough about all functions to make decisions. Your ideas are great..... Stationside, when your crew is not on liberty nor in the field, but maintaining your ship. Your job is to safeguard them, failure is something that only yourself can be blamed for. Feel free to use your democracy idea on your ship. When inaction strikes due to it also feel free to take the blame completely. Cowards blame their charges for irresponsible leadership, remember that.
Wren Villeneuve
Akagi Initiative
#10 - 2016-12-20 18:57:24 UTC
I find it interesting that the reaction of other members of the capsuleer community so far is that anything other that sheer authoritarian control of their crew constitutes an abdication of all responsibility.

I do not see giving some of the power back to the people who work on these ships as abdicating responsibility for them. In many ways I see it as taking responsibility for something deeper than the mere employee/employer relationship.

Any crew who do not wish to participate in the cooperative have two days to leave, no questions asked and full payment made to their contracts. Anyone who wishes to remain to join me on this grand adventure is welcome.

Remember that these other captains appear to want to have the ability to flush you out an airlock at a whim.
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#11 - 2016-12-20 19:10:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Deitra Vess
I believe it comes more down to the fact that we have some of the most efficient means to control a ship possible as capsuleers. Doling out responsibilities that we perform better is gross negligence of our duties is it not?
Arrendis
TK Corp
#12 - 2016-12-20 19:13:44 UTC
It's not 'sheer authoritarian control', it's 'a clear chain of command'. They already have the power to control their lives: they can leave. All of the normal arguments for why labor can't relocate go right out the window when you're talking about spacers crewing a ship because they're already relocating constantly. They're skilled labor. They can get another berthing in about 30 seconds, no question. The family they're supporting is already not likely to be anywhere nearby to need relocating—especially not with the crew of a ship in Empire-controlled space. All you have to offer is money, and a promise that you'll be a leader they can trust, someone who will not hesitate to make the difficult decisions when the chips are down, and lives are at stake.

And you're failing one of those right now.

A moment's indecision can mean the difference between a bad choice, and complete disaster—say, having to decide whether you can put out the fires in a cargo hold full of ammo you're hauling, or if the half-dozen men desperately trying to do just that are already casualties, and you have to vent the atmosphere in that section to keep the ship from blowing up and killing everyone else. Worse, a moment where you've taken that initiative and given the order, and the crew hesitates because hey, this isn't a military vessel, they get to vote before you space people...

Boom.

That's not being authoritarian. It's establishing a clear chain of command so that in any crisis, military, industrial, or 'holy crap, the navigational shielding spazzed out and a rock the size of a dinner plate just blew through the engines and there's radiation everywhere'-levels of improbable 'the universe just hates you today' crap, the crew is not paralyzed into inaction. They know whose orders they are listening to, and their department heads know whose orders they are listening to, and if your XO is any damned good at all, he knows his job is not just to make sure your orders get relayed, but to be the guy whispering into the secure line 'hey, Boss...' when he thinks you're screwing up.

His job is to be the check on your authoritarian impulses. His, and every other senior officer on that ship. And if you can't trust them to do that, if you have to hand the ship over to utter nonsense like direct democracy, then you need to find a better XO, and let them teach you how to hire decent bloody officers.
Hetu Hegirin
Doomheim
#13 - 2016-12-20 19:17:24 UTC
I think the general organizational principle proposed is interesting, and as a limited form of civilian self-governance there are certainly worse experiments to attempt. In terms of the co-operative as a whole, I believe some measure of success is possible. Hopefully, you will provide further account of your organization's endeavors as a means to augment stated intent with tangible outcomes.

As others have noted, extending the same scheme to crew operations, whether active combat duty or otherwise, is not something I would personally endorse. Many of my crews are merchant marines with hundreds of hours combat experience beyond my own, but even being a mere researcher, I am the captain. With clear delineation of objective and procedure, the crew operate as a unified body, grounded in our reciprocal roles. The chain of command is a time-tested means of collective function toward our shared goals.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#14 - 2016-12-20 19:19:24 UTC
Deitra Vess wrote:
I believe it comes more down to the fact that we have some of the most efficient means to control a ship possible as capsuleers. Doling out responsibilities that we perform better is gross negligence of our duties is it not?


No no, Deitra, you don't get it. She's a visionary. She's letting them reach their potential. I mean, obviously, this has never been tried before, or we'd all know this is the best way to do it. Everyone in the entire history of crewed vessels, spacefaring or otherwise has totally missed this idea because we're idiots.
Wren Villeneuve
Akagi Initiative
#15 - 2016-12-20 19:21:13 UTC
I see the issue. People think I'm going to be assigning responsibility for, say, whether or not to activate a particular module at a particular time to popular vote.

This is not the case, my crew are professionals and will be treated as professionals. This document does not cover the individual operation of individual ships at individual times, but towards the overall operation of the organization.

I'm still flying the boats. What we aim towards and the goals we set is a communal effort.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#16 - 2016-12-20 19:24:59 UTC
Wren Villeneuve wrote:
This document does not cover the individual operation of individual ships at individual times, but towards the overall operation of the organization.


Kinda already addressed that canard. Open the door a crack and watch the battering ram plow through it.

Arrendis wrote:

It's just going to be for 'any matter involving the overall status of the Cooperative', right? Who decides what constitutes a matter involving the overall status of the cooperative? What's your structure for determining if a matter is valid to vote on? If it's not, who decides?Does everyone get to vote on what's for dinner? If not, being served something they dislike might impair performance and endanger the Cooperative. Blowing up would involve the overall status of the cooperative, wouldn't it? Would a mutiny? If there's no vote on dinner, does the galley staff get to vote on what they're serving? Do departments have to be run by democratic process, or can your chief engineer say 'we're running engineering like we want the ship to actually work, with a clear chain of command and decisive focus for problem-solving'? If he tries, can the department members vote him out as Chief Engineer?

I mean, I'd think who's running the 'let's keep everyone from dying when life support fails and the engines explode' department would maybe be a matter that involves the overall status of the cooperative, no?


After all: how many ships do you intend to pilot through space at a given time? Last I checked, my pod can't be in two hulls simultaneously. Maybe you've got a magic pod.
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#17 - 2016-12-20 19:28:08 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Deitra Vess wrote:
I believe it comes more down to the fact that we have some of the most efficient means to control a ship possible as capsuleers. Doling out responsibilities that we perform better is gross negligence of our duties is it not?


No no, Deitra, you don't get it. She's a visionary. She's letting them reach their potential. I mean, obviously, this has never been tried before, or we'd all know this is the best way to do it. Everyone in the entire history of crewed vessels, spacefaring or otherwise has totally missed this idea because we're idiots.

All I know is with the crew members that have stuck beside me over the years, the system proposed here is done and works, Stationside.... When they have the luxury of doing work and not getting sucked into the vacuum of space and can simply quit if they don't like it. Theres no reason to be tightly run aside from security and maintenance. The second we hit the undock queue they know who they answer to and who they answer to answers to. It's their own lives and anyone worth their weight on a ship knows that.
Ibrahim Tash-Murkon
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#18 - 2016-12-20 19:34:48 UTC
Arrendis, dear, when we seem to be in agreement on something I get this unsettling feeling of having lost my hold on reality. I wonder if you feel it too?

I know OP must feel it. Constantly.

"I give you the destiny of Faith, and you will bring its message to every planet of every star in the heavens: Go forth, conquer in my Name, and reclaim that which I have given." - Book of Reclaiming 22:13

Ibrahim Tash-Murkon
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#19 - 2016-12-20 19:53:10 UTC
Reds on the gate they just came through,
Voting must start on what to do!
As ballots were cast,
Their cloak field collapsed,
Tackled and scrammed, so ends the crew.

"I give you the destiny of Faith, and you will bring its message to every planet of every star in the heavens: Go forth, conquer in my Name, and reclaim that which I have given." - Book of Reclaiming 22:13

Jev North
Doomheim
#20 - 2016-12-20 19:58:38 UTC
I've underestimated how much you love politics. At least, I hope so, because you'll be doing plenty of it in the very near future.

Good luck. I don't think you will succeed, but I almost hope you do, what with all the knee-jerk authoritarians failing at reading comprehension on field.

Even though our love is cruel; even though our stars are crossed.

123Next page