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A message to the Angels (Punitive Expedition report)
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Saya Ishikari
Ishukone-Raata Technological Research Institute
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#21 - 2016-12-16 17:04:10 UTC
This is a joke, right?

That's all I can give it, in terms of the credibility of the effort versus the intended "message".

Normally I don't bother with the Reverse Federation Recruitment Ad, but this reminds me of an upset furrier half-eating a pillow because you forgot to feed it. With a similar result.

It's hilarious, in that exact same way. Hence, a joke.

"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117
Jason Galente
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2016-12-16 17:50:05 UTC
Tl;DR!

Diana Kim tries out ratting for 30 minutes. Has a blast.

Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended.

At any cost
Velarra
#23 - 2016-12-17 17:04:34 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:

Besides ships there were demolished:

6 storage facilities;
3 landing pads;
an asteroid mining post;
an asteroid colony;
a pulsating power generator;


Base-liner civilian infrastructure. Lovely work, pilot.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#24 - 2016-12-17 22:35:11 UTC
Templar Thal Vadam wrote:
I doubt this will prove effective. The Cartel is a vast enough organization to replace all that has been destroyed.

And yet they are tiny compared to the State. Let them know what one officer can do.
Now imagine two officers.
Ten officers.
Thousand.
A Million.

I repeat again, it was conducted to show how we reply on threats.

Velarra wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:

Besides ships there were demolished:

6 storage facilities;
3 landing pads;
an asteroid mining post;
an asteroid colony;
a pulsating power generator;


Base-liner civilian infrastructure. Lovely work, pilot.

Incorrect.

Base-liner pirate infrastructure. They were built illegally in Caldari State souvereign space. All baseliners employed to work by pirate captains, pirate colony managers and pirate CEO are considered pirates by default, unless their innocence will be proven by tribunal.

Unfortunately, the speed with which these structures were destroyed and the magnitude of the explosions prevented me from collectig pirate crew in suitable medical condition (i.e. being alive) to be put under trial.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Casiella Truza
Ecliptic Rift
#25 - 2016-12-17 23:09:43 UTC
Somehow I think the entire State, or even the capsuleer contingent thereof, is not about to drop everything else and go hit pirate bases because you say so.

You really did not pay attention to anything said above, including by those of us with a bit of history with the Cartel. I guess that's fine, though, because it keeps you distracted from whatever other **** you get up to.
Teinyhr
Ourumur
#26 - 2016-12-18 11:24:06 UTC
Yarosara Ruil wrote:
Grr Angels! Hat Angels.


I await with bated breath to hear why not to hate Angels any less than other of the criminal organizations in the cluster.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#27 - 2016-12-18 17:25:51 UTC
Teinyhr wrote:
Yarosara Ruil wrote:
Grr Angels! Hat Angels.


I await with bated breath to hear why not to hate Angels any less than other of the criminal organizations in the cluster.

Uh ... your meaning's a little tricky to parse, Ms. Teinyhr, but, I think the pro-Angel argument goes something like:

  • "We're not Sansha's Nation and we're not the Blooders" (though they might sell you to either)

  • "We're at war with Sansha's Nation-- and the only entity really actively pursuing that war."

  • "More than any of our rivals, we are New Eden's black market. We provide for needs that the governments can't or don't care to fulfill. "

  • "We are your dispossessed, those who have fallen through your society's cracks. In Curse, we have a nation of our own, but in 'empire' space we are the face of your own failings and corruption. We are the shadows of your own societies. You will never be rid of us, however you try. Best learn to deal with what you can never change-- as we have."

(To be clear, I'm not one anymore, and don't remember when I was. Only, obviously, some stuff, I still remember. Like arguments.)
Casiella Truza
Ecliptic Rift
#28 - 2016-12-18 17:34:57 UTC
I'd also like to hear why we should hate Angels any more than other criminal organizations.

(NB: I don't actually hate criminals.)
Skyweir Kinnison
Doomheim
#29 - 2016-12-18 18:30:45 UTC
Teinyhr wrote:
Yarosara Ruil wrote:
Grr Angels! Hat Angels.


I await with bated breath to hear why not to hate Angels any less than other of the criminal organizations in the cluster.


I fear you have misunderstood. Mlle Ruil was clearly recommending the services of a milliner to the Cartel, which is a noble and enterprising effort to a group not widely known for their sartorial elegance.

Humanity has won its battle. Liberty now has a country.
Teinyhr
Ourumur
#30 - 2016-12-18 18:43:08 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Teinyhr wrote:
Yarosara Ruil wrote:
Grr Angels! Hat Angels.


I await with bated breath to hear why not to hate Angels any less than other of the criminal organizations in the cluster.

Uh ... your meaning's a little tricky to parse, Ms. Teinyhr, but, I think the pro-Angel argument goes something like:

  • "We're not Sansha's Nation and we're not the Blooders" (though they might sell you to either)

  • "We're at war with Sansha's Nation-- and the only entity really actively pursuing that war."

  • "More than any of our rivals, we are New Eden's black market. We provide for needs that the governments can't or don't care to fulfill. "

  • "We are your dispossessed, those who have fallen through your society's cracks. In Curse, we have a nation of our own, but in 'empire' space we are the face of your own failings and corruption. We are the shadows of your own societies. You will never be rid of us, however you try. Best learn to deal with what you can never change-- as we have."

(To be clear, I'm not one anymore, and don't remember when I was. Only, obviously, some stuff, I still remember. Like arguments.)


My meaning is that it is a criminal organization and why would you want to defend such an organization unless you are as despicable as they are?

So first off you nullify your own defence - nice. They sell people to slavery, prostitution, to experimentation, and to who knows what else. They are loyal only to their next paycheck.
Everyone is also at war with Sansha's Nation, and seeing how they still can organize their raids and throw tons of vessels at high security space just shows how little the Sansha seem to care or are inconvenienced about their war with the Angels.

Ah yes the black market of drugs, people, mercenaries and thugs. We needed more of those.

Ah yes, woe are the poor souls who live in Curse, who are only victims of society - oh and yes, who **** and pillage other decent folk when they get the chance or are paid for it. To think they are infallible and forever is, to put it mildly, naivete only on par with the capsuleers belief in their own infallibility and immortality.

Be pro-Angel if you want to speak on behalf of the worst the society has to offer. Sure, they might not be drinking your blood or turning you in to a barely sentient toaster, but if that's the standard of decency we admire today, well, we're ******.


Casiella Truza wrote:
I'd also like to hear why we should hate Angels any more than other criminal organizations.

(NB: I don't actually hate criminals.)


Nobody told you to hate them more.
Neither do I hate a pickpocket who steals only to survive to the next day, but criminal empires are a whole another entity and worth only our contempt.
Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#31 - 2016-12-18 19:21:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Makoto Priano
Let me preface this by saying I have no particular love for the Cartel. Indeed, I find that their agents are the single most self-aggrandizing set in the Cluster, and I'd rather traffic in the gray markets of the Syndicate, or even the markets of the Guristas, before I set foot in an Angel bazaar.

That said, Kim, this is a farce, even moreso than your normal farces. What you've done here is let a drop of blood into the river already being let loose by independent capsuleers every day, and then parade it around as a great threat. However, even you yourself can't make good on that threat. Who would answer your call? Perhaps one, two other pilots at most? A handful? Those you would then berate for not fighting in the warzone itself? Maker, but you've even admitted yourself you can't set policy for the State, so who could you order on your latest farcical venture? You lead no corporation, no alliance, no coalition. While you are a capable combat pilot, even in the warzone the achievements are not yours, but those of organizations greater and better than yourself.

You say we should respect a Caldari officer, that those who insult you insult the Caldari uniform.

Diana Kim, you are a frothing, rabid mongrel. Your mere existence is an insult to the uniform.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#32 - 2016-12-18 19:46:21 UTC
Makoto Priano wrote:

Diana Kim, you are a frothing, rabid mongrel. Your mere existence is an insult to the uniform.

Ahh, I see the Priano is still her old self. Annoying, lying and honorless coward.
You already was caught on your lies ( https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=381560 ) and you have already shown whole IGS that your words were empty and that you don't have courage to stand for them.

Why are you still trying? Everyone can see how empty you are.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#33 - 2016-12-18 19:59:28 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:

Everyone can see how empty you are.


And yet, darling Kim, I am willing to observe fact and reason despite personal bias, and so I've amounted to so much more than you.

You would do well to remember your lessons on kutuoto miru.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#34 - 2016-12-18 20:55:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Teinyhr wrote:
My meaning is that it is a criminal organization and why would you want to defend such an organization unless you are as despicable as they are?

So first off you nullify your own defence - nice. They sell people to slavery, prostitution, to experimentation, and to who knows what else. They are loyal only to their next paycheck.

....

Be pro-Angel if you want to speak on behalf of the worst the society has to offer. Sure, they might not be drinking your blood or turning you in to a barely sentient toaster, but if that's the standard of decency we admire today, well, we're ******.

The parenthetical was "me," Ms. Teinyhr. The rest is my predecessor (I think). There are kind of a lot of places where I don't agree with my former self or might want to undercut her "defense." You seem inclined to assume any analysis I put forward is something I agree with, anyway, though, so, I think I don't care about your moral judgments anymore and will just analyze as best I can.

Quote:
Everyone is also at war with Sansha's Nation, and seeing how they still can organize their raids and throw tons of vessels at high security space just shows how little the Sansha seem to care or are inconvenienced about their war with the Angels.

Ah yes the black market of drugs, people, mercenaries and thugs. We needed more of those.

Ah yes, woe are the poor souls who live in Curse, who are only victims of society - oh and yes, who **** and pillage other decent folk when they get the chance or are paid for it. To think they are infallible and forever is, to put it mildly, naivete only on par with the capsuleers belief in their own infallibility and immortality.


  • I think the war the Angels have been fighting with the Nation is mostly against the remnant based in Stain, rather than the forces directly working under Kuvakei, which seem to be based somewhere (hopefully) in W-space. (I say "hopefully" because I really don't like the idea of Sansha Kuvakei picking the bones of the Jovian Directorate.)

    • They've been at it for a while. By the way, not "everyone" is at war with the Sansha; the Blood Raiders and Guristas are apparently on good terms with them, which is a little alarming any way I look at it.

  • A black market also of medicines, supplies, and even food. That actually leads kind of into the next point....

  • The idea isn't so much that the Angels as an entity are immortal; it's that they represent something permanent. The perfect society hasn't been invented; there are always gaps, and people fall through them. Outside of maybe Sansha's Nation, not one human nation has ever been able to eliminate crime, and often those that try the hardest become most corrupt. The Angels' argument is that it's better-- and safer-- for everyone concerned to have order even among thieves, rather than leave the streets in chaos. You can't reach an understanding with chaos.

    • One counter-argument, of course, is that chaos also doesn't actively look for systemic weaknesses to exploit and rifts it can widen to its own advantage. (It might find them anyway, because: chaos, but it won't look for them.) Organized crime tends to do that. It's also arguable whether it aids underclasses or exploits them mercilessly (human affairs being what they are, probably some of both, maybe even simultaneously).
Nomistrav
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2016-12-18 23:31:24 UTC
Makoto Priano wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:

Everyone can see how empty you are.


And yet, darling Kim, I am willing to observe fact and reason despite personal bias, and so I've amounted to so much more than you.

You would do well to remember your lessons on kutuoto miru.


On a somewhat related note, I offered Madam Kim a reasonable compromise in the situation of the Federal Detention Facilities in Black Rise. It became clear to me that, with the use of F.O.F Identifier Tags, that the prisoners could potentially be rescued without ever firing a shot on Federal servicemen - men and women who are just trying to do their jobs. A team of stealth vessels could very well sneak into the complex where the detention facilities are held and with a little bit of coordination could evacuate the prisoners before the explosives are detonated.

While certainly not surprising, it is unfortunate that Madam Kim declined this offer, insisting that violence was the only way; that killing Federation Navy Servicemen unnecessarily was the only way.

It is regrettable, given so soon after our duel, that I already feel that Madam Kim is unreasonable in intent and motive. It has become clear to me that the situation in Black Rise was less about rescuing Caldari prisoners and more about a pseudo-justifiable reason to hunt and kill Federation Military.

"As long as space endures,

as long as sentient beings exist,

until then, may I too remain

and dispel the miseries of the world."

~ Vremaja Idama
Arrendis
TK Corp
#36 - 2016-12-19 06:48:18 UTC
Nomistrav wrote:
It is regrettable, given so soon after our duel, that I already feel that Madam Kim is unreasonable in intent and motive.


I think that's a little unfair. She certainly has her own reasons. Everyone else may disagree with them, but she has them. Say rather that she's intractable, inflexible, implacable, rigid... but she does have reasons.
Teinyhr
Ourumur
#37 - 2016-12-19 07:09:58 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:

The parenthetical was "me," Ms. Teinyhr. The rest is my predecessor (I think). There are kind of a lot of places where I don't agree with my former self or might want to undercut her "defense." You seem inclined to assume any analysis I put forward is something I agree with, anyway, though, so, I think I don't care about your moral judgments anymore and will just analyze as best I can.


  • I think the war the Angels have been fighting with the Nation is mostly against the remnant based in Stain, rather than the forces directly working under Kuvakei, which seem to be based somewhere (hopefully) in W-space. (I say "hopefully" because I really don't like the idea of Sansha Kuvakei picking the bones of the Jovian Directorate.)

    • They've been at it for a while. By the way, not "everyone" is at war with the Sansha; the Blood Raiders and Guristas are apparently on good terms with them, which is a little alarming any way I look at it.

  • A black market also of medicines, supplies, and even food. That actually leads kind of into the next point....

  • The idea isn't so much that the Angels as an entity are immortal; it's that they represent something permanent. The perfect society hasn't been invented; there are always gaps, and people fall through them. Outside of maybe Sansha's Nation, not one human nation has ever been able to eliminate crime, and often those that try the hardest become most corrupt. The Angels' argument is that it's better-- and safer-- for everyone concerned to have order even among thieves, rather than leave the streets in chaos. You can't reach an understanding with chaos.

    • One counter-argument, of course, is that chaos also doesn't actively look for systemic weaknesses to exploit and rifts it can widen to its own advantage. (It might find them anyway, because: chaos, but it won't look for them.) Organized crime tends to do that. It's also arguable whether it aids underclasses or exploits them mercilessly (human affairs being what they are, probably some of both, maybe even simultaneously).



You don't agree with your former self, yet you find a compulsive need to justify their actions and that of their former associates. Hmm.

When I said everyone, I meant everyone that matters. Criminals fighting other criminals is power play between them and whoever wins there, we lose. Medicine and supplies are at a premium if you talk about black market, so while you can try to excuse it as something good, they are simply just profiting off the already beaten and downtrod. Not to mention these supplies are often stolen from empire convoys, other colonies or the like.

Right, and that is complete and utter bullshit, and if you really believe it, the Angel brainwashing doesn't seem to come off even after numerous capsule destruction cycles. "It is better to have organized crime than disorganized" Wow, you believe that? I don't really even know what to say about that.

Negotiating with criminals is a fool's errand - you'll support crime either way, and don't even know if you'll get what you want. Like I said, these bastards are loyal only to their next paycheck, and if someone offers them more, that's whom they'll listen.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#38 - 2016-12-19 07:12:19 UTC
Teinyhr wrote:
"It is better to have organized crime than disorganized" Wow, you believe that? I don't really even know what to say about that.


Well, that is the basic tenet of governance. Biggest protection racket in the cluster is CONCORD, after all.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#39 - 2016-12-19 08:44:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Teinyhr wrote:
You don't agree with your former self, yet you find a compulsive need to justify their actions and that of their former associates. Hmm.

....

Right, and that is complete and utter bullshit, and if you really believe it, the Angel brainwashing doesn't seem to come off even after numerous capsule destruction cycles. "It is better to have organized crime than disorganized" Wow, you believe that? I don't really even know what to say about that.

Oh, gods and spirits.

Ms. Teinyhr, I'm a Shuijing Achur. We're a sect focused on clarity and insight. I try to learn and explore the "whys" of things, and I usually leave the "shoulds" to other people. I'm offering what I understand to be an Angel perspective on things because you might find it interesting, and because if I'm wrong about some part of it maybe one of them will correct me and I'll learn something new.

Dismissing others' perspectives won't prevent others from holding those perspectives, and there's never been enough knives and bullets in the world to silence them. Condemning me for offering a pirate faction's arguments is maybe a little bit of a waste of energy, since the position I'm presenting isn't even my own. It's just my understanding of someone else's.

It's not hard to come up with points of view from which I'm an awful person, but me being able to understand a pirate's point of view isn't one of the better reasons for thinking such a thing.
Jev North
Doomheim
#40 - 2016-12-19 09:12:58 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Dismissing others' perspectives won't prevent others from holding those perspectives[.]

Now that is as concise a summary of the tragedy of the various Summits as you can get.

Even though our love is cruel; even though our stars are crossed.