EVE General Discussion

Teckos Pech:

I made some elaborations in my post above whilst you where responding which you may want to review.

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You are misrepresenting my position, and assuming me to not understand things which I infact, do, and which are explicitly covered and considered in my positions.

No disrespect intended, this is merely an observation, but you might want to consider that when you say "no" to something and then proceed to demonstrate agreement on the issue, by repeating what the other person said which is the same as ypur position, twice over, it is a contradiction which indicates an antipathy to what you are assuming underlines someone elses arguments, or whomyou imagine they are, or a simple accidental misreading of what was said, rather than what they have infact argued on the issue.

You remind me of my mother.
She has a bizarre character trait, that she starts almost every sentence with "no", though she agrees.
For her, its probably because she had a tyrannical matron of a mother, and it was a means of resistance to maintain her own individuality against her monstrously overbearing mother.that left a permanent mark on her.

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I think you and I infact agree on just about every issue raised here.
I can tell you, that I agree with you, and understand the premises behind your positions.
I assure you, your points on the philosophical and mathematical nature of order/chaos, are ones I personally find very interesting and consider at great length and enjoy.

I am perplexed why you insist on posing as if we disagree, when infact we do not :D

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My core point, is that the sloppiness of the system bothers me, because it is so counter-intuitive.
People assume docking to do what it is stated as. Thousands of players do not know it is not what they think, nor do they have any reason to think otherwise, until they explode.

Yes, this opens up a fortunate window of PVP content, but its just a happy accident resulting from sloppy design.
Any player that, knowingly, doesnt use these tricks, take the risk they deserve.

I agree that ignorance is not an excuse.
But on the issue of un/docking, which is such a fundamental mechanic in EVE, I do wish there was more guidance ingame, whether through NPE tutorials or otherwise, to provide that information.

Im not advocating a change to docking mechanics. Im advocating that people be informed on what it is, and is not.

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I may choose to play as a carebear atm, avoiding PvP as much as I can, but that is my choice on how I play EVE.
(Primarily cos Im more concerned with isk generation atm for my plans).
That will change oneday, when I choose to change how I play EVE.
I look forward to it. Such a huge area of content, learning and experience to enjoy.

I am NOT against PvP, nor do I attempt to change the game to further restrict it.

If you read my post history, you will see I am one of the most outspoken, consistent and hard-line proponents on this board for PvP, as human interaction/conflict/competition, permeating every aspect of EVE as thoroughly as possible.

Demonstrated here in this image I made

My views are quite possibly even more hawkish than your own.

First off, let me say I have gone back and re-read the exchange.

Here is my thinking....

Here is one part of your post I'll quote,



My thinking is that this "sloppiness" is what gives us...various opportunities for types of game play that we observe. Even if it is a "happy accident" is besides the point. CCP sets up the sandbox with the basic rules and the rest of us go and provide interesting....results [note, I'm kind of struggling here because I don't think our language is suited for this kind of concept]. Yes the players who figure out that when you click the dock button means you might land outside docking range and give them an opportunity to shoot you might have an "unfair" or "sloppy" advantage is actually a feature. It will lead player who suffer from that kind of outcome to (hopefully) change their behavior (set up insta-dock book marks).

To me this is what gives us emergent game play. Players setting up an alpha ship to take advantage of this game design. And consequently players who make warp to zero bookmarks on stations. Will new players suffer disproportionately? Probably. This is why EVE is noted as having a steep learning curve, IMO. Yes, the new(er) player might be put off by this, but my guess is such a player would be put off by something else if not that.

The way I see it is that systems that display emergence and spontaneous order are often, as you say, "sloppy". They are not clean. There is quite a bit of..."roughness" that allows for new things to come about. And one thing about us humans...we don't like this kind of sloppiness. We always want to try and improve things and do away with it. But in the end those efforts often end up not working or worse...they lead to a build up of forces that end up blowing up in our faces.

Here is an analogy from where I live, southern California. There is a general dislike of brush fires. They tend to destroy property and so people try to minimize them. Problem is that what happens is that dead undergrowth starts to build up...so much so that after a certain point when you do get a brush fire it is beyond anything you'd normally get. A state of emergency is declared, extra resources are brought in and lots of homes are destroyed. It makes one think...perhaps it is better to let smaller brush fires happen and clear out the dead undergrowth before you get something truly horrible. The last such fire was so bad it looked like Baghdad in the middle of sand storm the smoke was so thick...even in places far removed from the fires.

Not sure if I answered your question, but I tried.

Yes, only avoid that gate.