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My thoughts on the so-called "Free to Play" scheme
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OneMustFall
Strange Objects On Horseback
#41 - 2016-11-21 01:57:59 UTC
From someone new to the game, the whole skill barrier is a real turnoff. When I heard you would be able to play Eve for free, I was pretty excited as I had been wanting to check the game out for a while. However I was pretty disappointed to see how limited an Alpha clone really is. There's all these ways to customize your character into the way you want yet you don't have access to half the skills. I get restricting access to higher level ships and slower skill progression but cutting off skills just isn't gonna entice me to want to break that paywall barrier. Someone who previously played the game and was a former sub who told me about the F2P move was looking to get back into the game decided to stop playing once he saw that most of the skills he had built up on his character were no longer accessible. All of that customization was now blocked by a paywall and he either had to retool his character or pay up.

I don't think this kind of model is viable nowadays. There are plenty of other games which let you just play the game for free and make their money instead off optional "conveniences" and cosmetics. A lot of these games still have the options to sub but most of the content is free. I get they want people to convert to subs but like what was stated here, the level of restrictions is too high to encourage new players (and returning players) to do so. I suspect Eve will get a boost from the recent transition but I don't think people are going to stick around if there aren't changes to make even trying out the game more enticing.
Mark Marconi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#42 - 2016-11-21 06:20:28 UTC
OneMustFall wrote:
From someone new to the game, the whole skill barrier is a real turnoff. When I heard you would be able to play Eve for free, I was pretty excited as I had been wanting to check the game out for a while. However I was pretty disappointed to see how limited an Alpha clone really is. There's all these ways to customize your character into the way you want yet you don't have access to half the skills. I get restricting access to higher level ships and slower skill progression but cutting off skills just isn't gonna entice me to want to break that paywall barrier. Someone who previously played the game and was a former sub who told me about the F2P move was looking to get back into the game decided to stop playing once he saw that most of the skills he had built up on his character were no longer accessible. All of that customization was now blocked by a paywall and he either had to retool his character or pay up.

I don't think this kind of model is viable nowadays. There are plenty of other games which let you just play the game for free and make their money instead off optional "conveniences" and cosmetics. A lot of these games still have the options to sub but most of the content is free. I get they want people to convert to subs but like what was stated here, the level of restrictions is too high to encourage new players (and returning players) to do so. I suspect Eve will get a boost from the recent transition but I don't think people are going to stick around if there aren't changes to make even trying out the game more enticing.

At this current moment CCP would be cutting their own throats by throwing away their guaranteed income stream for a hypothetical one.

I am sure when their sub income stream dies enough they would go full free to play but with they are not at the highs they once were they are not that low.

Nor is WoW that uses the same model. Are you going to tell me blizzard should go free to play as well?

The CSM gets in the way of CCP communicating properly with the players of this game.

After all we are not just players, we are customers.

Time for the CSM to be disbanded.
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
The Conference
#43 - 2016-11-21 08:49:19 UTC
That was all discussed when CCP first talked about this feature. Here are the points I then made about why this will look like an insane castle with just paywalls everywhere:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6616984#post6616984
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6624916#post6624916

The view of the majority of players in that other thread and even CCP where that it is not pay2win because you still need player skill (Which is an incredible stupid argument because this is obviously true for every game) and that this is an "extended trial" and not a "real" free2play game.

So now we have the feature and as expected we will now have this daily threads with people complaining about the paywalls and other people trying to sell it as "extended trial".

Oh well...

Evil RatKid
Mark Marconi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#44 - 2016-11-21 10:10:39 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
That was all discussed when CCP first talked about this feature. Here are the points I then made about why this will look like an insane castle with just paywalls everywhere:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6616984#post6616984
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6624916#post6624916

The view of the majority of players in that other thread and even CCP where that it is not pay2win because you still need player skill (Which is an incredible stupid argument because this is obviously true for every game) and that this is an "extended trial" and not a "real" free2play game.

So now we have the feature and as expected we will now have this daily threads with people complaining about the paywalls and other people trying to sell it as "extended trial".

Oh well...

So just name it the way WoW defaults to upto lvl20.

Its the "too poor to pay, play".

When you want to enjoy the game but are either to broke or too miserly to cough up the dough.

The CSM gets in the way of CCP communicating properly with the players of this game.

After all we are not just players, we are customers.

Time for the CSM to be disbanded.
Gillia Winddancer
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2016-11-21 12:29:13 UTC
Mark Marconi wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
That was all discussed when CCP first talked about this feature. Here are the points I then made about why this will look like an insane castle with just paywalls everywhere:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6616984#post6616984
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6624916#post6624916

The view of the majority of players in that other thread and even CCP where that it is not pay2win because you still need player skill (Which is an incredible stupid argument because this is obviously true for every game) and that this is an "extended trial" and not a "real" free2play game.

So now we have the feature and as expected we will now have this daily threads with people complaining about the paywalls and other people trying to sell it as "extended trial".

Oh well...

So just name it the way WoW defaults to upto lvl20.

Its the "too poor to pay, play".

When you want to enjoy the game but are either to broke or too miserly to cough up the dough.


I'm just curious since I've never played WoW or bothered following it in detail, but was there any uproar in the community when they introduced the free to play until level 20 bit?
Bibosikus
Air
#46 - 2016-11-21 12:51:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Bibosikus
Chopper Rollins wrote:
Bibosikus wrote:
IT IS PERFECTLY FINE TO SCRAP SOME LOW END SKILL BECAUSE THERE ARE NOW MORE HIGH END ONES THAN EVER BEFORE!


I find the core skills to be very smart, just like any combat set of skills they are the basics that max your ability to do higher level things.
You went on a bit there about how you played a long time ago and others are mid-level players, whatever the hell that means.
Then you shouted, making your argument passionate assertion, which is no argument at all.






How are they smart, how do they benefit the game?
Why is it so hard to understand that as EVE has aged more and more skills have been added. (Skill Creep as i call it) Skill creep has often come hand in hand with new toys or features or balances. And while that is fine it is in fact at it's base level still moving the goal posts. And that's FINE, It keeps players chasing new toys and the game evolving. In the RMT age of plex it also kinda stops newbs getting straight into titans through buying them, (even though in theory that's now possible too).

We don't need a set of skills that are basically requirements to fly all ships competently much like the learning skills the core skills of ship functions are just a massive waste of time. Many many corps wont accept players with less than 15mill sp and core skills maxed. It's an elitism argument now. So many old players say "I had to train them so should you" or its about "I play Eve online its so hard you can't, look at all this patients i've had".

Worse now there are skill injectors these early skills are kind of looking like a cash grab by ccp. "Hey before you can fly ANY ship well you need to train these. OR you could inject them"
Basically skills like Engineering, Electronic, warp drive operations. Weapon Upgrades. and a few others need scrapping. or give them to newbs at level5 and give vets the sp to spend.

It's just a practical evolution with no real drawbacks and plenty of benefits that might stop people being put off EVE in the first 2 months. because there is nothing like being told to go study for the ship and the guns. Ohh and these other 20things like how not to overload your ships pg with the coffee machine.

Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2016-11-21 13:59:33 UTC
Bibosikus wrote:
Chopper Rollins wrote:
Bibosikus wrote:
IT IS PERFECTLY FINE TO SCRAP SOME LOW END SKILL BECAUSE THERE ARE NOW MORE HIGH END ONES THAN EVER BEFORE!


I find the core skills to be very smart, just like any combat set of skills they are the basics that max your ability to do higher level things.
You went on a bit there about how you played a long time ago and others are mid-level players, whatever the hell that means.
Then you shouted, making your argument passionate assertion, which is no argument at all.






How are they smart, how do they benefit the game?
Why is it so hard to understand that as EVE has aged more and more skills have been added. (Skill Creep as i call it) Skill creep has often come hand in hand with new toys or features or balances. And while that is fine it is in fact at it's base level still moving the goal posts. And that's FINE, It keeps players chasing new toys and the game evolving. In the RMT age of plex it also kinda stops newbs getting straight into titans through buying them, (even though in theory that's now possible too).

We don't need a set of skills that are basically requirements to fly all ships competently much like the learning skills the core skills of ship functions are just a massive waste of time. Many many corps wont accept players with less than 15mill sp and core skills maxed. It's an elitism argument now. So many old players say "I had to train them so should you" or its about "I play Eve online its so hard you can't, look at all this patients i've had".

Worse now there are skill injectors these early skills are kind of looking like a cash grab by ccp. "Hey before you can fly ANY ship well you need to train these. OR you could inject them"
Basically skills like Engineering, Electronic, warp drive operations. Weapon Upgrades. and a few others need scrapping. or give them to newbs at level5 and give vets the sp to spend.

It's just a practical evolution with no real drawbacks and plenty of benefits that might stop people being put off EVE in the first 2 months. because there is nothing like being told to go study for the ship and the guns. Ohh and these other 20things like how not to overload your ships pg with the coffee machine.

hm.... I'm i right that 'fly the ship competently' for you means 'have all support skills at V'?
How is it different (for example) from gunnery skills? Or you mean they are next to be removed?

And support skills really affect your fits: having 'all V' you can make t2 fit while having 'not so V' you would need to play with less demanding modules from faction/deadspace/storyline families. Or implants.

I guess using your logic we can remove all the skills from the game step by step What?

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Kyara Stone
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2016-11-21 14:08:14 UTC
absolutely true, alpha clones dont implement F2P scheme in eve, they just resemble time unlimited trial, thats it.
Countess Markievicz
Eyememyne
#49 - 2016-11-21 14:12:04 UTC
I prefer, Eve is stagnant, rather than Eve is dying.

From a business perspective, CCP did what they felt was needed to keep the game alive in the long term.

If X (whatever X needs to be) amount of the freeloaders start to pay to play, then CCP have made a good call.

If free to play does not generate the required amount of new players, then I and others who pay to pay are, in effect, paying for freeloaders to leech off our subs.

My main worry is that the freeloaders will soon start to complain that what they have been offered is not enough and will demand more value from their free sub.

What will CCP do then?

I wish CCP well.
Addicted to Eve
Loosy Lollipop
Night Raven Task Force
United Interests
#50 - 2016-11-21 15:15:50 UTC
Countess Markievicz wrote:
I prefer, Eve is stagnant, rather than Eve is dying.

From a business perspective, CCP did what they felt was needed to keep the game alive in the long term.

If X (whatever X needs to be) amount of the freeloaders start to pay to play, then CCP have made a good call.

If free to play does not generate the required amount of new players, then I and others who pay to pay are, in effect, paying for freeloaders to leech off our subs.

My main worry is that the freeloaders will soon start to complain that what they have been offered is not enough and will demand more value from their free sub.

What will CCP do then?

I wish CCP well.



Freeloaders already started to complain, their goal is to have more than they can for free, they can complain all time with no problem and with no risk.

Paying clients are already leeched, personally for example I live in a wormhole and do exploration as my favourite "active" gameplay.

Previously I had decent chances to find some relic or at least some data sites in my wormhole and in the wormholes around mine, while from the moment alphas came online I found almost nothing at all.

Everything is already farmed, resources are the same while shared by paying players and non paying players, it's harder for them to gather resources but numbers are so high resources are depleted anyway.
Kyara Stone
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#51 - 2016-11-21 16:09:32 UTC
well if resources are farmed, its maybe not a bad thing - driving people out of safe high sec into less secure areas.
Cien Banchiere
Extrinsic Arcadia Distribution
#52 - 2016-11-21 16:23:02 UTC
Loosy Lollipop wrote:


Previously I had decent chances to find some relic or at least some data sites in my wormhole and in the wormholes around mine, while from the moment alphas came online I found almost nothing at all.

Everything is already farmed, resources are the same while shared by paying players and non paying players, it's harder for them to gather resources but numbers are so high resources are depleted anyway.


What exactly is wrong with having competition?
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#53 - 2016-11-21 16:29:33 UTC
Loosy Lollipop wrote:


Freeloaders already started to complain, their goal is to have more than they can for free, they can complain all time with no problem and with no risk.

Paying clients are already leeched, personally for example I live in a wormhole and do exploration as my favourite "active" gameplay.

Previously I had decent chances to find some relic or at least some data sites in my wormhole and in the wormholes around mine, while from the moment alphas came online I found almost nothing at all.

Everything is already farmed, resources are the same while shared by paying players and non paying players, it's harder for them to gather resources but numbers are so high resources are depleted anyway.



I rather like the idea of baddies being out-competed for resources by gimped characters in gimped ships. Wormhole exploration is a particularly amusing example - the poor dears can't even fit a cloak. Lol

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#54 - 2016-11-21 16:34:50 UTC
It's been mentioned in a few other places, but it's likely not an oversight that the two current clone states are "Alpha" and "Omega". There's a lot of speculation going around that CCP will eventually be releasing clone states that have more capability than Alphas, but less capability (and cost) than Omegas.

Say, for example, CCP releases an "Epsilon" state that is half-way between an Alpha and an Omega in terms of capability but can be kept active for two months on one PLEX instead of one.

I doubt that the whole F2P -> P2P dynamic is quite done being hammered out yet. Give CCP some more time.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#55 - 2016-11-21 16:37:02 UTC
I thought I should respond to you but then all these guys said it better than I ever could.

Sugar Von MurdererTits : Jake Warbird gets my vote for most intriguing and attractive male character in Eve.
Loosy Lollipop
Night Raven Task Force
United Interests
#56 - 2016-11-21 17:12:34 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Loosy Lollipop wrote:


Freeloaders already started to complain, their goal is to have more than they can for free, they can complain all time with no problem and with no risk.

Paying clients are already leeched, personally for example I live in a wormhole and do exploration as my favourite "active" gameplay.

Previously I had decent chances to find some relic or at least some data sites in my wormhole and in the wormholes around mine, while from the moment alphas came online I found almost nothing at all.

Everything is already farmed, resources are the same while shared by paying players and non paying players, it's harder for them to gather resources but numbers are so high resources are depleted anyway.



I rather like the idea of baddies being out-competed for resources by gimped characters in gimped ships. Wormhole exploration is a particularly amusing example - the poor dears can't even fit a cloak. Lol



I think everything comes to a price.

It can be good that a alpha can compete with a omega about something, but if resources are already scarce it can happen that omega, paying to play the game, is a bit unhappy.

You can share a piece of bread with ten persons and still be decently happy but if you share the same piece of bread with a hundred persons it can potentially be not so fun anymore.
Xavier Higdon
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#57 - 2016-11-21 17:16:50 UTC
I wish someone would have told me EVE was dying before I resubbed.
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#58 - 2016-11-21 17:18:16 UTC
Loosy Lollipop wrote:



I think everything comes to a price.

It can be good that a alpha can compete with a omega about something, but if resources are already scarce it can happen that omega, paying to play the game, is a bit unhappy.

You can share a piece of bread with ten persons and still be decently happy but if you share the same piece of bread with a hundred persons it can potentially be not so fun anymore.





Bloobloobloo. If some cloakless newbie in an Imicus can come into your home and eat your lunch, you deserved to have it taken. Put on your grownup-pants, decloak an Astero on them, and thank them for doing all the leg-work gathering up that loot for you.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Loosy Lollipop
Night Raven Task Force
United Interests
#59 - 2016-11-21 17:30:50 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Loosy Lollipop wrote:



I think everything comes to a price.

It can be good that a alpha can compete with a omega about something, but if resources are already scarce it can happen that omega, paying to play the game, is a bit unhappy.

You can share a piece of bread with ten persons and still be decently happy but if you share the same piece of bread with a hundred persons it can potentially be not so fun anymore.





Bloobloobloo. If some cloakless newbie in an Imicus can come into your home and eat your lunch, you deserved to have it taken. Put on your grownup-pants, decloak an Astero on them, and thank them for doing all the leg-work gathering up that loot for you.


Bad attitude, I'm saying something general, not something specific about me.
Judaa K'Marr
Shadow Legions.
SONS of BANE
#60 - 2016-11-21 18:16:39 UTC
Mark Marconi wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
That was all discussed when CCP first talked about this feature. Here are the points I then made about why this will look like an insane castle with just paywalls everywhere:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6616984#post6616984
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6624916#post6624916

The view of the majority of players in that other thread and even CCP where that it is not pay2win because you still need player skill (Which is an incredible stupid argument because this is obviously true for every game) and that this is an "extended trial" and not a "real" free2play game.

So now we have the feature and as expected we will now have this daily threads with people complaining about the paywalls and other people trying to sell it as "extended trial".

Oh well...

So just name it the way WoW defaults to upto lvl20.

Its the "too poor to pay, play".

When you want to enjoy the game but are either to broke or too miserly to cough up the dough.


They wouldn't name it correctly for what it is, because they wanted the publicity from telling the whole world "EVE is now F2P!". Essentially it is one big bait-and-switch scheme. Posts like OP is just the start of the whine fest that will follow, understandably.

The matter has never been about "too poor to play", unlikely anyone is that poor if they own a computer and net access. The issue is that, they pay for EVE, then for WOW, then for FFXIV, then something from an item store, and gem store. Then wife is asking about where all this money is going. So it comes down to picking only that which is value for money, which to them, EVE isn't. This is Microeconomics 101, shouldn't need explaining to EVE players.