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Eve Tough Guys: Separating the Wheat from the Chaff

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Beast of Revelations
Pandemic Horde Inc.
#1 - 2016-11-05 04:49:01 UTC
PREAMBLE

As a preamble, I would state that I am an infrequent reader and poster to this site. For all I know what I am about to say has already been said a thousand times before. If so, my apologies, simply ignore this, lock and delete the thread, move on, etc.

ABSTRACT

Now on to the topic at hand. Whenever I come here I always see insults of 'carebear' thrown around. As we all know, this insult normally comes from a low-sec pirate type or null-sec corp. guy (someone who envisions himself as an elite PvP'er), and is directed to some 'other' type who is stereotypically a high-sec miner, but could also be a high-sec mission runner or whatever else.

Let's cut through the B.S. What this boils down to is someone who proclaims to be an Eve 'tough guy' calling another player a 'pussy.' Before I go further, let me be explicit and state unequivocally that I am completely and 100% neutral as far as tough guy-ism or pussy-ism. If a guy wants to be (or is) a tough guy (a low-sec pirate type or whatever) - great. If a guy wants to be (or is) a pussy (a high-sec miner type or whatever) - great. And if the tough guy wants to prey on the pussy, to berate him, to call him names - I'm 100% fine with that too. In short, I am not here to defend the pussy, nor am I here to castrate the tough guy.

But what I am here to do is to ferret out hypocrisy. You see, there are far too many self-proclaimed but false 'tough-guys' here - guys who proclaim to be tough guys but are in fact pussies. "Pussies in wolves' clothing" if you will. It is this that I object to. Thus I'd like to 'separate the wheat from the chaff' so to speak - to expose or ferret out these pussies in wolves' clothing. Pursuant to this, I propose a small list of gameplay modifications. The goal of these changes is not to affect the true pussy negatively, and not to affect the true tough guy negatively, e.g. true pussies and true tough guys should support these changes. Rather, the goal here is to target the hypocrite - the false tough guy wanna-be, the pussy disguised as a tough guy. I would hope that the true tough guys out there would support ferreting out the pussies dwelling within their ranks. And again, if any or all of these things have been beaten like a dead horse a thousand times over, ignore this thread.

PROPOSED CHANGES

1) Remove ship insurance for low-sec and null-sec. This means not only that you cannot buy insurance in low-sec and null-sec, but that any insurance bought in high-sec will not payout for ships lost in low-sec and null-sec. Also, bar high-sec insurance from low-security individuals, criminals, etc, meaning if any of those folks travel to high-sec to do business, they cannot insure their ships while travelling in high-sec.

Rationale: High-sec pussies should be unaffected. They live and travel exclusively in high-sec, they have high-security statuses, etc. They can continue to procure insurance for their mining vessels or whatever. True tough guys should be unaffected as well. True tough guys don't want and don't need pussy insurance, and indeed don't carry pussy insurance, not only because 'insurance is for pussies,' but because it also screws up risk/reward, action/consequence, etc. For the true tough guy, if you live by the sword, you shall accept the risk of dying by the sword. For the true tough guy, there are no safe places in Eve. No, it is only the false tough guy, the pussy in disguise, the hypocrite, who is targeted by this. These pussies want to proclaim their elite PvP statuses and credentials, flaunt their pirate images, etc. while at the same time fly under the protection of pussy insurance. And you will know who they are by their objections below.

2) Remove clone jumping from low-sec and null-sec, and also from low-security individuals. Meaning A) clone jumping can only happen from high-sec to high-sec, and B) low-security individuals cannot clone jump at all. Optionally, reimburse skill points sunk into this, but then again why do we want to coddle false tough guys who made use of this while accusing others of being pussies? Rationale: Only pussies should be able to travel not only instantaneously, but completely safely as well. And only pussies should be protected from losing expensive implants. The true tough guy doesn't need the protection of pussy insurance (which is all this is) to save him from losing expensive implants. But the pussy in tough-guy disguise? Well we don't care about him, thus he is being targeted here, and ferreted out. Know him by his objections below.

3) Remove safe logout/logoff from low-sec and null-sec, and from low-security individuals. Rationale: Why on earth should true tough guys want or need "safe logout?" This kind of nonsense is the domain and purview of pussies only. All true tough guys should support this change - they don't want, need, or use safe logout. But the pussy in tough-guy disguise will cry and whine - he wants to have his cake and eat it too, you see. Again, know him by his objections below.

4) No free noob ships in low-sec, null-sec, nor for low-security individuals. It is amazing how much utility these things have. I myself use them all the time to scout gates and null-sec areas, to transport goods, etc. I see no reason why the true tough guy should want, or need, a free noob ship. He wants to face all consequences in this game, and he wants no coddling or 'free ride' in any way, shape, or form. No, it is the pussy in tough-guy disguise who wants to have his cake and eat it too. It is the pussy in tough-guy disguise who wants to point the finger of accusation at the true pussy, and accuse him of being a pussy, rather than look into his own mirror and see the pussy staring back at him.

I'm sure this is a woefully incomplete list. So I ask for help not only from the true pussies out there who don't deny being pussies, but also from the true tough guys. [CONTINUED]
Beast of Revelations
Pandemic Horde Inc.
#2 - 2016-11-05 04:49:34 UTC
Please add to this list with your suggestions below.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#3 - 2016-11-05 05:11:37 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
*sigh*

It is bait, that much is obvious... but I will bite.


You are correct in that the term "carebear" is thrown around a lot. So much so that the specific behavior/attitude that people are alluding to is lost.
I feel i defined it pretty well a few years back on another thread:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6231338#post6231338

ShahFluffers wrote:

Paranoid Lyod wrote:
Carebear is a state of mind, not a role. There are plenty of people who only PVE but are not carebears.

This.

There is a difference between "risk aversion" (attempting to avoid any and all possible risk at any cost) and "risk mitigation" (minimizing risk but accepting that it is always there and a part of the game).

A person who runs missions and "bugs out" (or doesn't take the "bait") when confronted by a "ninja looter" is not necessarily a carebear.
A person who runs missions and complains that people can interfere with his/her mission running activities IS a carebear.

A person who does industry and hauls stuff around is not necessarily a carebear.
A person who does industry and hauls stuff around, but avoids any and all potentially profitable ventures and complains about it (because he/she doesn't want to expose him/herself to any possible risk) IS a carebear.

A person who does PvP and chooses engagements to have the best odds of winning is not necessarily a carebear.
A person who does PvP, chooses engagements to have the best odds of winning, and then turns around and says that it isn't fair that others are doing the same thing is a carebear.

A person who only operates solo is not necessarily a carebear.
A person who only operates solo and complains about how groups of players have an advantage over him/her is a carebear.


It is a subtle difference. But it is important to make the distinction.



Your hyperbolic argument of "well if you guys are so tough, let's give give you massive penalties and nerf your playstyles to the ground and see how well you cope" is childish.

How did you Veterans start?
Black Pedro
Mine.
#4 - 2016-11-05 05:23:04 UTC
I think you need to HTFU my friend and stop asking CCP to do your work for you. Eve Online isn't your personal sociology experiment.

If you want to out some players as hypocrites, then go out there and grind them into the ground until they cry like little children.

Stop being such a carebear/forum whiner and go play the game which might mean you need to work on your elite PvP skills some. From the sound of things they are a little lacking. It's probably all those free rookie ships you keep taking that has kept you soft.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Beast of Revelations
Pandemic Horde Inc.
#5 - 2016-11-05 05:30:50 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
I think you need to HTFU my friend and stop asking CCP to do your work for you. Eve Online isn't your personal sociology experiment.

If you want to out some players as hypocrites, then go out there and grind them into the ground until they cry like little children.

Stop being such a carebear/forum whiner and go play the game which might mean you need to work on your elite PvP skills some. From the sound of things they are a little lacking. It's probably all those free rookie ships you keep taking that has kept you soft.


First 'pussy in tough-guy clothing' exposed. Next?
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#6 - 2016-11-05 05:55:35 UTC
I do agree on the insurance thing to some degree... no idea why the premiums dont go up when people keep whelping into the same hostile systems every day... but then i like flying nicer things than i could otherwise afford as well.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#7 - 2016-11-05 06:10:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
I'm not the thought police.

People can say whatever they like within the rules and/or what the ISDs and CCP let slide.

Sticks and stones and all that. It's really not all that important.

If you're worried by what other post in the forum, perhaps look at what that implies personally about your own insecurities and self esteem, rather than trying to be judgemental about them.

Names that get thrown around here in the forum (carebear, nullbear, sociopath, etc.) mean nothing. It's just part of the game. Ignore it and move on.
Beast of Revelations
Pandemic Horde Inc.
#8 - 2016-11-05 06:48:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Beast of Revelations
Scipio Artelius wrote:

If you're worried by what other post in the forum, perhaps look at what that implies personally rather than trying to be judgemental about them.


As I stated above, I bear no ill will towards neither the true pussy who understands and admits he is a pussy, nor towards the true tough-guy who preys upon said pussies, disparages said pussies, etc. As I stated above, I'm neutral on all of that, and am not here to protect the pussy, nor am I here to castrate the tough guy.

As I stated above, what I am here to do is to ferret out and expose 'false tough guys' e.g. hypocritical pussies, by suggesting gameplay tweaks which should make sense and should be supported by everyone BUT said hypocritical pussies.

In other words, "it's about the game," not about "what others post in the forum" blah blah. If a majority of this game's players are either 1) true pussies, or 2) true tough guys, I would expect that this majority would either support these changes, or if not these exact changes, similar ones. If a majority of this game's players are hypocritical pussies, I would not expect these changes to have much support, but then we'd know where we stand as a player-base as well.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#9 - 2016-11-05 06:57:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Beast of Revelations wrote:
As I stated above, I bear no ill will towards neither the true pussy who understands and admits he is a pussy, nor towards the true tough-guy who preys upon said pussies, disparages said pussies, etc. As I stated above, I'm neutral on all of that, and am not here to protect the pussy, nor am I here to castrate the tough guy.

Yeah sure. This thread implies something different.

Quote:
If a majority of this game's players are either 1) true pussies, or 2) true tough guys, I would expect that this majority would either support these changes, or if not these exact changes, similar ones. If a majority of this game's players are hypocritical pussies, I would not expect these changes to have much support, but then we'd know where we stand as a player-base as well.

Whether I'm a pussie, tough guy or some sort other classification anyone might label me with, meh who cares. Their right and at different times I've been labelled a whole range of different things.

I don't support these changes though because they make no logical sense. The majority of the game's players don't use the forum at all. They happily play their game with no care whether someone here gets labelled a carebear, or a sociopath, or whatever.

You want to change their gaming experience because you're upset about forum labels. That makes no real sense at all.
Solonius Rex
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2016-11-05 07:00:48 UTC
Beast of Revelations wrote:


PROPOSED CHANGES

1) Remove ship insurance for low-sec and null-sec. This means not only that you cannot buy insurance in low-sec and null-sec, but that any insurance bought in high-sec will not payout for ships lost in low-sec and null-sec. Also, bar high-sec insurance from low-security individuals, criminals, etc, meaning if any of those folks travel to high-sec to do business, they cannot insure their ships while travelling in high-sec.

Rationale: High-sec pussies should be unaffected. They live and travel exclusively in high-sec, they have high-security statuses, etc. They can continue to procure insurance for their mining vessels or whatever. True tough guys should be unaffected as well. True tough guys don't want and don't need pussy insurance, and indeed don't carry pussy insurance, not only because 'insurance is for pussies,' but because it also screws up risk/reward, action/consequence, etc. For the true tough guy, if you live by the sword, you shall accept the risk of dying by the sword. For the true tough guy, there are no safe places in Eve. No, it is only the false tough guy, the pussy in disguise, the hypocrite, who is targeted by this. These pussies want to proclaim their elite PvP statuses and credentials, flaunt their pirate images, etc. while at the same time fly under the protection of pussy insurance. And you will know who they are by their objections below.


Absurd. Null and losec are the exact people that needs insurance because they are the ones living in a section of space where they can freely be engaged and die. Its a lot easier not to die in hisec as long as you are paying attention. In null, even if you pay attention you can still die.
Quote:

2) Remove clone jumping from low-sec and null-sec, and also from low-security individuals. Meaning A) clone jumping can only happen from high-sec to high-sec, and B) low-security individuals cannot clone jump at all. Optionally, reimburse skill points sunk into this, but then again why do we want to coddle false tough guys who made use of this while accusing others of being pussies? Rationale: Only pussies should be able to travel not only instantaneously, but completely safely as well. And only pussies should be protected from losing expensive implants. The true tough guy doesn't need the protection of pussy insurance (which is all this is) to save him from losing expensive implants. But the pussy in tough-guy disguise? Well we don't care about him, thus he is being targeted here, and ferreted out. Know him by his objections below.


Even more absurd. When you hold sov and need to move to a section of space quickly because its under attack or because someone needs help, you need jump clones. This isnt the case in hisec.
Quote:


3) Remove safe logout/logoff from low-sec and null-sec, and from low-security individuals. Rationale: Why on earth should true tough guys want or need "safe logout?" This kind of nonsense is the domain and purview of pussies only. All true tough guys should support this change - they don't want, need, or use safe logout. But the pussy in tough-guy disguise will cry and whine - he wants to have his cake and eat it too, you see. Again, know him by his objections below.

Uh, what about supercaps?

But seriously, when youre in hostile space after a huge battle that raged for hours and lost, do you really expect the losing side to have to self destruct? Or if you are stuck between a gatecamp, should you have to either die or self destruct yourself? I mean, wtf?

Quote:


4) No free noob ships in low-sec, null-sec, nor for low-security individuals. It is amazing how much utility these things have. I myself use them all the time to scout gates and null-sec areas, to transport goods, etc. I see no reason why the true tough guy should want, or need, a free noob ship. He wants to face all consequences in this game, and he wants no coddling or 'free ride' in any way, shape, or form. No, it is the pussy in tough-guy disguise who wants to have his cake and eat it too. It is the pussy in tough-guy disguise who wants to point the finger of accusation at the true pussy, and accuse him of being a pussy, rather than look into his own mirror and see the pussy staring back at him.

I'm sure this is a woefully incomplete list. So I ask for help not only from the true pussies out there who don't deny being pussies, but also from the true


Your proposed changes isnt going to make low/null more dangerous, just more tedious. Like adding a 100 million isk tax charge on every market transaction. They are stupid suggestions that have no merit beyond "hurr durr lets make it more annoying to live in null/low because reasons" .

You want to make it more difficult to live in null? Use Autopilot.
Avaelica Kuershin
Paper Cats
#11 - 2016-11-05 07:21:12 UTC
Beast of Revelations wrote:

As I stated above, I bear no ill will towards neither the true pussy who understands and admits he is a pussy, nor towards the true tough-guy who preys upon said pussies, disparages said pussies, etc. As I stated above, I'm neutral on all of that, and am not here to protect the pussy, nor am I here to castrate the tough guy.


Your use of words is, to say the least, curious. Perhaps it's a matter of different idioms, but to me there are very ugly connotations here.

I would not care if I was considered a carebear or not, but if I do get my ship blown up while exploring, I would like to think I will get some of my investment back. In a similar vein, if I'm deep down a chain, or in the far reaches of null, and a WH closes, I'd like to think I could log off safely.
Beast of Revelations
Pandemic Horde Inc.
#12 - 2016-11-05 07:36:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Beast of Revelations
Solonius Rex wrote:

Absurd. Null and losec are the exact people that needs insurance because they are the ones living in a section of space where they can freely be engaged and die.


Null and lowsec are no places for carebears, 'pussies,' whatever you want to call them. True carebears, 'pussies,' etc. live in highsec.

'Real men,' tough guys, etc. live in nullsec or lowsec. They don't need insurance. They accept the concepts of risk vs. reward, they accept 'consequences to actions,' they accept 'live by the sword, die by the sword' blah blah.

But there is a third type who also lives in nullsec or lowsec. The 'sheep in wolf's clothing,' the pretender, the hidden or crypto pussy/carebear who would have us all think he's a tough guy. It is he who would object to these changes. The other two groups wouldn't be affected by said changes.

Quote:
But seriously, when youre in hostile space after a huge battle that raged for hours and lost, do you really expect the losing side to have to self destruct? Or if you are stuck between a gatecamp, should you have to either die or self destruct yourself?


Yes.
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2016-11-05 07:49:40 UTC
Complete nonsense.

I'm my own NPC alt.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#14 - 2016-11-05 08:02:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
Beast of Revelations wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
I think you need to HTFU my friend and stop asking CCP to do your work for you. Eve Online isn't your personal sociology experiment.

If you want to out some players as hypocrites, then go out there and grind them into the ground until they cry like little children.

Stop being such a carebear/forum whiner and go play the game which might mean you need to work on your elite PvP skills some. From the sound of things they are a little lacking. It's probably all those free rookie ships you keep taking that has kept you soft.


First 'pussy in tough-guy clothing' exposed. Next?
Wait, what you are actually serious? I though the OP was tongue-in-cheek and thus merited a similar response. I guess I was wrong.

Ok more seriously, your idea is inane. It would do nothing to separate anything as everyone - real tough guys, fake tough guys, and the vast silent majority would be affected. The game would change dramatically, and with no control group you won't know why people are changing their behaviour. Not to mention there are good game design reasons for many of the things you want to remove from in the game, making it risky that many players would even stick around to leave a game for you to see the result.

More importantly, people are allowed, maybe even encouraged, in this game to be tough guys and talk trash, lie, present themselves as stronger than they are, present themselves as weaker than they are, boast, taunt, attempt to enrage their opponent and all sorts of other psychological tricks and falsehoods. Calling some dude a hypocrite for acting tough to discourage someone else from invading his space is a little much as it might actually work. He is just playing the game.

Eve Online isn't a court of law or some sort of civil society where being a hypocrite is of importance. It is a fictional video game where we don space personas, some of which might even be straight-out hypocrites, but so what? Don't let people's role-playing or trash talk bother you, and certainly not enough to make actual game design proposals. These tough guys have no say over the game design process, and neither do you.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
EDENCOM DEFENSIVE INITIATIVE
#15 - 2016-11-05 08:08:57 UTC
Vigirr
#16 - 2016-11-05 09:05:05 UTC
"Carebear" has different meanings to different people, to me it's someone who is unwilling to be responsible for his own well being or is just very risk averse. He wants others to do his thinking and acting for him. This is a very broad description and because of that lots of people are carebears in my eyes.

The typical miner or mission runner in high sec, oblivious to game mechanics and ganking, never put in any actual thought, who mines away and goes full ****** when you cross him whining about how the game should be more safe. That's a carebear.

Same with pvpers, most of them are carebears. They hide in massive numbers, perhaps they always camp the same system backed by alts, gang links, eleventy billion safespot and whatnot and then preferably in a system that's next to high sec (near Arnon or starter systems for the ultimate carebears) or is labelled as a go-to system for solo pvp. Gankers are also carebears, hiding behind faceless alts shooting people who don't shoot back using throwaway ships, they're hilariously risk averse.


But a miner or mission runner who is prepared, puts in the effort to understand the dangers and thus takes steps to avoid trouble by using his brain cells, not a carebear. Same with a PVPer who is willing to rely on his own capabilities (doesn't mean he has to fly solo) and is willing to not always have the upper hand but get into the fight anyway, not a carebear. So someone isn't a carebear just because he's a miner, mission runner or trader, it's a mindset.

And the mindset difference is "am I willing to personally be responsible for my well being and (in)actions... or not".

Now to the hilarious OP: don't be dumb.
Sitting Bull Lakota
Poppins and Company
#17 - 2016-11-05 09:59:46 UTC
I'm of a rather fey and doughy sort.

Beast of Revelations sounds like a real toughie. Blink
voetius
Grundrisse
#18 - 2016-11-05 10:04:26 UTC

Removal of insurance was my prediction for 2015 when there was a thread at the start of that year. Obviously, I was wrong about that. I still support that idea but perhaps a better version would be for removal of insurance payouts over some arbitrary amount to protect newbros.

Don't agree with any of the other of the OPs points or their "rationale", it all seems a bit arbitrary and designed to punish some aspects of gameplay that presumably he doesn't like.

Also, F&I is that way ->
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#19 - 2016-11-05 10:07:04 UTC  |  Edited by: sero Hita
Beast of Revelations wrote:
PREAMBLE


Now on to the topic at hand. Whenever I come here I always see insults of 'carebear' thrown around. As we all know, this insult normally comes from a low-sec pirate type or null-sec corp. guy (someone who envisions himself as an elite PvP'er), and is directed to some 'other' type who is stereotypically a high-sec miner, but could also be a high-sec mission runner or whatever else.

Let's cut through the B.S. What this boils down to is someone who proclaims to be an Eve 'tough guy' calling another player a 'pussy.' Before I go further, let me be explicit and state unequivocally that I am completely and 100% neutral as far as tough guy-ism or pussy-ism. If a guy wants to be (or is) a tough guy (a low-sec pirate type or whatever) - great. If a guy wants to be (or is) a pussy (a high-sec miner type or whatever) - great. And if the tough guy wants to prey on the pussy, to berate him, to call him names - I'm 100% fine with that too. In short, I am not here to defend the pussy, nor am I here to castrate the tough guy.

But what I am here to do is to ferret out hypocrisy. You see, there are far too many self-proclaimed but false 'tough-guys' here - guys who proclaim to be tough guys but are in fact pussies. "Pussies in wolves' clothing" if you will. It is this that I object to. Thus I'd like to 'separate the wheat from the chaff' so to speak - to expose or ferret out these pussies in wolves' clothing. Pursuant to this, I propose a small list of gameplay modifications. The goal of these changes is not to affect the true pussy negatively, and not to affect the true tough guy negatively, e.g. true pussies and true tough guys should support these changes. Rather, the goal here is to target the hypocrite - the false tough guy wanna-be, the pussy disguised as a tough guy. I would hope that the true tough guys out there would support ferreting out the pussies dwelling within their ranks. And again, if any or all of these things have been beaten like a dead horse a thousand times over, ignore this thread.



Why should I as a normal non-tough guy lowsec/nullsec player be punished, because you take offense that someone on the forum is a toughguy hypocrite? This suggestion makes no sense and does not only punish the guys who apperently annoy you, but also everyone elseRoll. It is a pretty good troll/flame bait though, I'll give you that.

"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
Elenahina
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2016-11-05 10:47:57 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
I do agree on the insurance thing to some degree... no idea why the premiums dont go up when people keep whelping into the same hostile systems every day... but then i like flying nicer things than i could otherwise afford as well.


Because it's not really insurance; it's a PvP subsidy so people aren't even more risk adverse than they already are naturally.

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno
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