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Thoughts on improving the game

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Keno Skir
#301 - 2016-11-04 13:32:20 UTC
In all honesty, i see the gank fleets form up all the time. They undock and warp to a pre-defined safe spot to group up and prep group warp to the target. Anyone with the slightest scanning skills can easily probe down this safe (and any others) and be waiting next time the fleet lands at safe to group warp to target. I have watched various gank groups use the same undock safes time and time again.

Anyone who complains gankers are hard to catch / kill hasn't thought of this simple premise and should go back to the drawing board to think harder.

Hisec is "most dangerous area" because it contains statistically the least organized people in the game (and gankers).

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Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#302 - 2016-11-04 13:34:26 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
Artemis Ellery Sazas wrote:
Criminals are given warnings and chased by FACPO when they enter certain systems, but I have always wondered why docking rights for those criminals are not pulled by the 4 factions as well. Criminals or other gankers would not be able to easily reship or hide while their timers are running down.

With the introduction of citadels, criminals can now use an alt to install citadels and have docking rights to those, but then gankers or criminals would have something to lose because the alt corp could be war dec'd. Make the game a little more interesting and give the criminals something to protect or lose, while they also cause havoc in high sec. A sec status of -10 means nothing and does not have any real restrictions that can't easily be bypassed. Isn't this what is EVE is about, Risk vs Reward?

I do find it ironic that gankers complain High sec is too safe, all the while their mains are sitting in the safety of Null sec running endless combat anoms and mining fresh ore anoms every 1/2 hour after depletion. When I lived in Null, there were days that would go by without seeing a neutral come through the pocket, while making about 150 mil/hr running Rock Havens. Having lived in all sectors, except wh, Null sec by far is the safest space in EVE, while High sec is the most dangerous and Low sec is easily the most fun.


why dont you just go and camp the undock of where the gankers live or hunt the nullsec alts? or how about pay someone to do it, because you know if pirates want something done that doesnt involve shooting they have to pay carebears to do it or learn it themselves, maybe all you highsec carebears can form some sort of coalition and pay people to deal with it, that involves interaction though which you may not like.

null is safe because people make it safe and adapt, unlike people like you who just complain to ccp because people are using mechanics available which you dont like, god forbid if they ever let cyno's into highsec.

-10.0 holds plenty of restrictions, i.e we have to pay for alts to buy ships for us as we cant enter into highsec, which adds risk of getting ganked, but we are smart and dont make ourselves look like idiots that get ganked being bad.


Again, how about a compromise of removing faction police and putting a 10 second warp cool down for -10 players flying anything more than a pod?

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Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#303 - 2016-11-04 13:36:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Lan Wang
thats up there with the most stupid ideas ive ever heard,

maybe you guys could adopt some tactics that low, null and wh players use, intel channels, scouts and awareness

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#304 - 2016-11-04 13:50:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
Lan Wang wrote:
thats up there with the most stupid ideas ive ever heard,

maybe you guys could adopt some tactics that low, null and wh players use, intel channels, scouts and awareness


Wow. As they say on 4chan..."Not an argument."

The point of the suggestion was to make -10 players be averse to station camping.

With the removal of faction police they wouldn't be forced to station camp.

The 10 second rule is to make them avoid NPC stations.

I would bet this compromise would be favorable to gankers as 99% of the time miners aren't paying attention to who is in the system anyways.

Either than can risk an extra 10 seconds while undocking on NPC station (which unless a person is actively hunting them won't matter) or they can buddy up with a player owned citadel and have no undocking timer.

And I would think removing the faction police all together would be something gankers would like.

I personally think the faction police are bad for mercs simply because -10 are encouraged to dock up all the time.

Again this is coming from some one who has never been ganked outside of FW and who has ganked and given Intel to gankers.

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Cien Banchiere
Extrinsic Arcadia Distribution
#305 - 2016-11-04 13:50:58 UTC
If this thread had any good ideas I think they went in the shitter in the first,couple pages. The only decent idea proposed was "use your tools and watch out for yourself". The same advice given for over a decade. We have fields buried with thease dead horses. Fields. If you have issues with criminal and pirate types just figure it out. I did. I,spent two years in HS and met all sorts of awful people. It was fun. You learn a lot.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#306 - 2016-11-04 13:55:19 UTC
Cien Banchiere wrote:
If this thread had any good ideas I think they went in the shitter in the first,couple pages. The only decent idea proposed was "use your tools and watch out for yourself". The same advice given for over a decade. We have fields buried with thease dead horses. Fields. If you have issues with criminal and pirate types just figure it out. I did. I,spent two years in HS and met all sorts of awful people. It was fun. You learn a lot.


My suggestion increases PVP and benefits mercs, not Care Bears.

People who are averse to PVP will still get ganked.

Those who want to harden up or contract mercs will be benefited.

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Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#307 - 2016-11-04 14:05:36 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Cien Banchiere wrote:
If this thread had any good ideas I think they went in the shitter in the first,couple pages. The only decent idea proposed was "use your tools and watch out for yourself". The same advice given for over a decade. We have fields buried with thease dead horses. Fields. If you have issues with criminal and pirate types just figure it out. I did. I,spent two years in HS and met all sorts of awful people. It was fun. You learn a lot.


My suggestion increases PVP and benefits mercs, not Care Bears.

People who are averse to PVP will still get ganked.

Those who want to harden up or contract mercs will be benefited.


As explained, PVPrs and 'mercs' have enough advantages, they don't need more. CCP does need to stop nerfing people who do interesting things (that other of us can then learn to counter, which is the fun of being an EVE PVE players), but they sure as hell don't need a buff.
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#308 - 2016-11-04 14:16:45 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
thats up there with the most stupid ideas ive ever heard,

maybe you guys could adopt some tactics that low, null and wh players use, intel channels, scouts and awareness


Wow. As they say on 4chan..."Not an argument."

The point of the suggestion was to make -10 players be averse to station camping.

With the removal of faction police they wouldn't be forced to station camp.

The 10 second rule is to make them avoid NPC stations.

I would bet this compromise would be favorable to gankers as 99% of the time miners aren't paying attention to who is in the system anyways.

Either than can risk an extra 10 seconds while undocking on NPC station (which unless a person is actively hunting them won't matter) or they can buddy up with a player owned citadel and have no undocking timer.

And I would think removing the faction police all together would be something gankers would like.

I personally think the faction police are bad for mercs simply because -10 are encouraged to dock up all the time.

Again this is coming from some one who has never been ganked outside of FW and who has ganked and given Intel to gankers.


it makes it tedious for people who are traveling through systems in ceptors to reach other parts of space without any intention of ganking

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#309 - 2016-11-04 14:16:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
Jenn aSide wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Cien Banchiere wrote:
If this thread had any good ideas I think they went in the shitter in the first,couple pages. The only decent idea proposed was "use your tools and watch out for yourself". The same advice given for over a decade. We have fields buried with thease dead horses. Fields. If you have issues with criminal and pirate types just figure it out. I did. I,spent two years in HS and met all sorts of awful people. It was fun. You learn a lot.


My suggestion increases PVP and benefits mercs, not Care Bears.

People who are averse to PVP will still get ganked.

Those who want to harden up or contract mercs will be benefited.


As explained, PVPrs and 'mercs' have enough advantages, they don't need more. CCP does need to stop nerfing people who do interesting things (that other of us can then learn to counter, which is the fun of being an EVE PVE players), but they sure as hell don't need a buff.


Maybe I should have posted my idea under an alt as sometimes I antagonize people too much for the lulz.

But anyways.... Wouldn't you agree that the faction police need to go?

They basically encourage station camping and creates less player made content.

I suggested the 10 second rule not as a nerf but to balance it out and discourage station camping at NPC.

The suggested player owned citadel exemption just creates more player conflict content as those who harbor reds could have the chance of being targeted as well.

And don't we want more content in high sec?

I mean I'd be fine with just taking away faction police without doing anything else, but if you want that you need to concede something to the Care Bears. Either adding the 10 second rule or making reds onlydock able at player structures.

I mean you can be hostile all you want to them, the alternative is just a threadnaught.

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Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#310 - 2016-11-04 14:29:41 UTC
And look, if we went the route a banning reds from NPC stations, I wouldn't be opposed to adding pirate faction mini citadels at a way cheaper price than current citadels so gankers can easily deploy in systems.

And getting rid of the faction police is still a value added offer.

The idea is to make players more responsible for their actions.

I'd also agree to making NPC stations less desirable over all to encourage players to get out of them in general. Being safe havens should come at a price, don't you agree?

Despite my grudge, citadels were the best idea CCP has come up with in along time.

We should make use of them.

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Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#311 - 2016-11-04 14:32:54 UTC
people getting ganked is the result of people not being responsible for their own actions.

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#312 - 2016-11-04 14:37:21 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:


Maybe I should have posted my idea under an alt as sometimes I antagonize people too much for the lulz.


That has nothing to do with it, I can have conversations with people I don't personally care for.

Quote:

But anyways.... Wouldn't you agree that the faction police need to go?

They basically encourage station camping and creates less player made content.

I suggested the 10 second rule not as a nerf but to balance it out and discourage station camping at NPC.

The suggested player owned citadel exemption just creates more player conflict content as those who harbor reds could have the chance of being targeted as well.

And don't we want more content in high sec?


More 'content' is great an all, but your line of thinking misses key points, mainly the nature of people.

Most ideas people have fail the reality test because of human nature. People simply won't do what you think they will. The bad guys adapt to any nerfs, while the people you are supposedly trying to help (even the ones you think are activley seeking pvp against bad guys) won't actually benefit, because if you can't get people to use tools they already have, they won't use new tools either.

Quote:

I mean I'd be fine with just taking away faction police without doing anything else, but if you want that you need to concede something to the Care Bears. Either adding the 10 second rule or making reds onlydock able at player structures.

I mean you can be hostile all you want to them, the alternative is just a threadnaught.


"Reds" don't need to dock. Jettisoning ships is a thing. Which comes to antoher point, your ideas not only fail to take into accopunt human nature, but also already existing game mechanics that would let 'reds' ignore any changes you suggest. The most advisable course I can suggest is that you spend more time learning the mechanics (even the more obscure ones) so as to gain an insight into why many of us think what you suggest not only won't work, but would make things worse for everyone (especially 'non-reds).


--

Side note, you are not the 1st to make such mistakes. CCP has done so time and time again. (
CCP made that change to null for the same expressed reasons your ideas suggest. The actual result was LESS pvp and a stark and noticeable increase in big bloc taking space soloey for the purpose of renting it out.

In other words, wanting to increase PVP be implementing a change that does not take human nature into account results in the opposite happening.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#313 - 2016-11-04 14:38:07 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
people getting ganked is the result of people not being responsible for their own actions.



Would you agree to:

A. Getting rid of faction police?

And

B. Making it undesirable to use NPC stations for safe havens for everyone (not just gankers)

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pajedas
Doomheim
#314 - 2016-11-04 14:44:28 UTC
Too many posts here to read them all...

The greatest gift CCP gave HS gankers (-5 thru -10) is the ability to tether to a citadel.

This should not be allowed and removed as an option immediately!

🐇
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#315 - 2016-11-04 14:46:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Lan Wang wrote:
people getting ganked is the result of people not being responsible for their own actions.


This i think is what Tardbar and others with similar ideas don't understand.

You simply can't fix (or game develop away) laziness, stupidity and victim-hood thinking. Look at all the changes CCP made:

-safeties,

-protective pop ups,

-more EHP for mining ships,

-slots for freighter class ships,

-higgs anchor riggs,

-the recent anti-bumping warp mechanics change,

The YEARS of tinkering with the war dec and bounty systems etc etc.

And STILL we have these threads. How much more has to happen before people understand that the problem isn't game mechanics, it's the mental and emotional characteristics of certain players that other players are good at exploiting? When will they learn that NO external change if going to solve their problem, that the ONLY option is an individual, internal change that would make those players mostly invulnerable to the actions of others?

I know the answer, it's the same in game is it is out (never...). But it's a shame, because the game developer seems to also think like that to. Notice the revamped (for the umpteenth time) NPE and the free to play thing, neither are which are likely to succeed because CCP seems to really not understand what EVE is and why it's players like it.
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#316 - 2016-11-04 14:53:44 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
people getting ganked is the result of people not being responsible for their own actions.



Would you agree to:

A. Getting rid of faction police?

And

B. Making it undesirable to use NPC stations for safe havens for everyone (not just gankers)


yes and nope

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#317 - 2016-11-04 15:15:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
Jenn aSide wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
people getting ganked is the result of people not being responsible for their own actions.


This i think is what Tardbar and others with similar ideas don't understand.

You simply can't fix (or game develop away) laziness, stupidity and victim-hood thinking. Look at all the changes CCP made, safeties, protective pop ups, more EHP for mining ships, slots for freighter class ships, higgs anchor riggs, the recent anti-bumping warp mechanics change, the YEARS of tinkering with the war dec and bounty systems etc etc.

And STILL we have these threads. How much more has to happen before people understand that the problem isn't game mechanics, it's the mental and emotional characteristics of certain players that other players are good at exploiting? When will they learn that NO external change if going to solve their problem, that the ONLY option is an individual, internal change that would make those players mostly invulnerable to the actions of others?

I know the answer, it's the same in game is it is out (never...). But it's a shame, because the game developer seems to also think like that to. Notice the revamped (for the umpteenth time) NPE and the free to play thing, neither are which are likely to succeed because CCP seems to really not understand what EVE is and why it's players like it.


Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day.

Teach a man to fish and he'll be fed for the rest of his life.

Teach all men to fish, and the fish population will go extinct and everyone starves.


So what I am saying here is that everyone flew a 100k EHP Skiff I would suspect there would be complaints from a certain excuse.

People claim and point to others stupidity for the reasons for their behavior, but in reality they'd be out of a profession if everyone did what they claim they want them to do.

I mean I'm getting out of the ice mining business since you can't do that on an Alpha account, but I've always felt like the 20 man bot fleets needed to be ganked, but no one... CODE or mercs were up to the challenge because they flew skiffs with a tanked Orca.

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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
The Conference
#318 - 2016-11-04 15:22:14 UTC
All this was suggested before.

Citadels are cheap and take a lot of time to bring down. I really doubt a carebear mob will form and attack them, especially since they are already used by ganker corps and no such thing happened. Even if they form a replacement will be deployed right away and you will be back crying about "throwaway citadels" and how it is not really risking assets if you already know someone will blow them up.

There is no problem here that needs to be solved. Just some wrong carebear expectations that need to be adjusted.

Evil RatKid
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#319 - 2016-11-04 15:23:19 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:


Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day.

Teach a man to fish and he'll be fed for the rest of his life.

Teach all men to fish, and the fish population will go extinct and everyone starves.


Only if there is nothing to eat but fish.

Quote:

So what I am saying here is that everyone flew a 100k EHP Skiff I would suspect there would be complaints from a certain excuse.

People claim and point to others stupidity for the reasons for their behavior, but in reality they'd be out of a profession if everyone did what they claim they want them to do.


Everyone isn't going to do it, I've never expected they would. But the point is that you don't go changing things because people who could help themsevles refuse to. The ONLY reason for game mechanics changes is a gross imbalance that no amount of personal behavior can combat.

Most people in game that call for changes don't even use the tools they have, making their whining invalid.

Quote:

I mean I'm getting out of the ice mining business since you can't do that on an Alpha account, but I've always felt like the 20 man bot fleets needed to be ganked, but no one... CODE or mercs were up to the challenge because they flew skiffs with a tanked Orca.


Report bots. Thats a tool. Hire mercs, another tool. Recruit other ice miners and out compete the existing mining fleet (even if you don't 'win' you could mine enough ice to make it unprofitable for the multibox miner). All of these are tools that don't get used, people just give up before even trying, then run to CCP for fixes. That's called meta gaming.

Be the fix you want to see.
Artemis Ellery Sazas
Shock and Awe Inc.
#320 - 2016-11-04 15:26:52 UTC
Living in High sec and living in Null are two completely different playstyles.

High sec is very casual and laid back, a lot are lazy and they become easy targets because of that attitude. Null sec is hard core with comms, scouts, 65 million intel channels to monitor, websites, CTA's, etc, etc... and those players that prepare and work hard deserve everything and more that they earn.

My point was about criminals being allowed or disallowed to dock in High sec. I am in FW and I can't dock in Minnie controlled systems. Why? I am -10 to them and Minnie hates me. So if a character is hated enough by the faction police, why should that criminal be allowed to dock in their High sec systems.

@Lan Wang - I am not a carebear sweetie, I am an FW pilot and do a bit of ganking. I live in Arzad, so please don't be a stranger. Big smile