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Warfare & Tactics

 
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transversal

Author
Annir Janau
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1 - 2016-10-27 23:29:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Annir Janau
"A high transversal velocity occurs when:
Two ships orbit one another at the same speed in opposite directions (maximal transversal)"

Not here for pedantics, but this statement is fubar. I know how things work in actuality, just need to know if that matches computer game universe.

Firstly, things can't orbit each other in opposite directions (oxymoron anyone?). I assume they mean two ships 'chasing each other in a circle'. In this case the velocities would be subtractive, reaching zero transvers at matching velocities.
If they mean rotating in opposite polarities around the circle (though not sure when this would happen in eve-- they'd have to both give orbit commands on a third point), then trans would exponentially spike at crossing, then quickly fall back down, reaching zero at parallel.

eg: two identical jets/ships get into the dogfight circle (eve equivalent, both pilots click 'orbit' same speed on other pilot). In eve world, does this falsely result in max transversal?
if they mean the strange second instance, would this falsely result in a constantly high transversal?
Or is all well with eve universe and they just wrote it wrong?

Please no [benign world I apparently cant say on eve forums] tl/dr or cr replies.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#2 - 2016-10-28 05:19:02 UTC
You are thinking more in terms of RL gunnery mechanics which simply do not apply here.


In EVE:

If your trajectories are perpendicular or opposite to each other (you and your target) then transversal is high and the odds of landing a hit diminish.

Exception: if there is a sufficient amount of range (this is key) between you and the target and you are both flying straight at each other then it is possible to score direct hits.


If your trajectories are parallel to each other, then transversal is low and the odds of scoring a hit increase.

Exception: if both you and the target are at extreme close range, then speed and sig radius (see: "sensor footprint") will play bigger role in the hit-chance and damage calculations.


Missiles don't care about the trajectories of any ships. All they take into account are; range (missile speed x flight time), speed of the target ship, and size of the target ship.
Taurean Eltanin
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2016-10-28 10:28:05 UTC
Tracking is based on vector addition. You can't just look at the magnitude of the numbers, but also their direction.

This means that from a tracking point of view, there is no such thing as 'orbit'. An orbit is something that happens over time, whereas tracking is calculated using the relative vectors of the two ships at the moment of firing.

So if you hit 'orbit', at any given moment your velocity is (theoretically) perpendicular to your target. If he has hit 'orbit' as well, and is moving in the opposite direction, then your relative velocity is exactly equal to the sum of your individual velocities, resulting in the worst possible tracking for that particular range.

If your relative velocities are not exactly opposite, then only a proportion of your individual velocities are used to calculate your relative velocity, resulting in improved tracking.

It is worth noting that orbits in opposite directions are very common, as this is the most stable system between two ships of unequal speed attempting to orbit each other at different ranges. In other words, no matter what your initial orbits are, you shifting movements will rapidly bring you into opposite orbits.

If you like reading about low sec piracy or wormhole pvp, you might enjoy my blog.

Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2016-11-02 12:45:24 UTC
Draw an infinite straight line in space, that passes through both ships.

Then look at where the ships are after a couple of seconds: the closer they are to the line, the lower the transversal.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Annir Janau
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#5 - 2016-11-05 04:26:02 UTC
I think we should omit the term 'direction' as applied to orbit, and probly 'orbit' too. It's indeed about vectors and speed at any given time. I think my answer lay in that buried implication, which is they use (proper?) vector math, as I'd assume they would, and the verbiage is jacked. (option 3 of initial post)

As a final (hope?) I'll reiterate my revised example which (should?) get a yes or no answer:
Two identical craft fly at the exact same rate clockwise in the same degree of arc (around same circle) shooting at each other. They have zero relative motion, thus zero simple transverse and angular velocity.
Eve indicates zero on both: yes / no

Thanks.

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#6 - 2016-11-05 06:08:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Bienator II
transversal velocity is not a good metric since it is distance dependant. It probably became popular because it sounds fancy.

angular velocity is much more interesting when turrets are involved, since target signature and angular vel directly influence how good you can track. The orientation or spin of your own ship does not matter at all. Two identical ships, one is standing still the other is orbiting the first - both will have the same hit chance. For the server you are a point.

with missiles it is absolute target speed and its sig

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Zirashi
Cyclical Destruction
#7 - 2016-11-05 06:21:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Zirashi
Where is this coming from?

If you are trying to figure out tracking, use angular velocity. It is easier to visualize and it is measured in radians per second with your ship as the origin, which was the old tracking rating metric for weapons before they changed it to the infinitely useless "weapon accuracy score."

Two ships of the exact same type, fit exactly the same, orbitting each other at the same range, and with equally skilled pilots (character skill) will have the same chance of hitting their mark.
xTrader One
Nothing to see here..
#8 - 2016-11-08 14:13:41 UTC
Zirashi wrote:

If you are trying to figure out tracking, use angular velocity. It is easier to visualize and it is measured in radians per second with your ship as the origin, which was the old tracking rating metric for weapons before they changed it to the infinitely useless "weapon accuracy score."


Weapon score translates into radian per seconds. The only difference is everything is now base 40 sig instead of having different base sigs for small/med/large/capital systems.

1000 weapon score = 1 rad/sec vs a 40m sig target

you just need to adjust for the sig of your opponent same as you always did.
Nalia White
Tencus
#9 - 2016-11-09 20:30:14 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
transversal velocity is not a good metric since it is distance dependant. It probably became popular because it sounds fancy.

angular velocity is much more interesting when turrets are involved, since target signature and angular vel directly influence how good you can track. The orientation or spin of your own ship does not matter at all. Two identical ships, one is standing still the other is orbiting the first - both will have the same hit chance. For the server you are a point.

with missiles it is absolute target speed and its sig


and that is the reason you can never compare the eve tracking mechanics with real world physics. in the real world the guns of the orbiting ship (perfect orbit of course) would always hit as they don't need to move (the movement part is taken by the ship).

on the contrary the orbited ship has issues hitting because the guns have to move there.

Syndicate - K5-JRD

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My biggest achievement

Annir Janau
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#10 - 2016-11-12 03:34:57 UTC
What if C-A-T spelled Dog...

"1000 weapon score = 1 rad/sec vs a 40m sig target" Thanks for this info xtrader.