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[Ascension] Command Ship skill requirement changes

First post
Author
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#21 - 2016-10-27 01:42:48 UTC
Cassiel Seraphim wrote:
You obviously haven't paid attention or tried things on Singularity.

Currently on Singularity you need to have every single pre-requisite skill in order to interact with a ship (assemble, board, undock etc). So even if you have Command Ships trained, Battlecruiser V trained etc, you'll still need to train the two racial warfare skills up to IV before you can use the ship again.

I'm guessing this is either a simple as the new Shield Command (former Siege Warfare) and Skirmish Command (former Skirmish Warfare), for a Sleipnir for example, becoming a "primary" skill requirement instead of a secondary skill required for the primary skill Command Ships ... or it has to do with the way they implemented the alpha vs omega clone "downgrade" that locks you out of ships you no longer have the skills for.

This means that a lot of older pilots will no longer be able to fly ships they currently can fly. Thus won't "be able to fly what they can already fly", which has often been CCP's stance on changes.

This is just the change from secondary skills to primary.
CCP, you need to put this into the change to first post, since currently those skills are including in the CS requirements and it makes it sound like you are totally removing the Command skills, not moving them onto the ships themselves.
oiukhp Muvila
Doomheim
#22 - 2016-10-27 05:50:57 UTC
Brown Pathfinder wrote:
Fozzie can't you give CS 3 rig slots? And give extra mid +1 across the board?


Why should a Command Ship be the only Tech II ships to have three rig slots? The whole point of limiting Tech II ships to two rig slots was to give Tech I ships some advantage over Tech II ships.


Galinius Valgani
Sirius Syndicate
The Army of Mango Alliance
#23 - 2016-10-27 06:11:34 UTC
Since you need a rigslot now when you want to install more Command Bursts I can understand this.
But since you have to be on grid I even would advise against using 1 Rig and simply use 2 Bursts per CS and bring more Commandships?
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#24 - 2016-10-27 06:16:14 UTC  |  Edited by: elitatwo
Galinius Valgani wrote:
Since you need a rigslot now when you want to install more Command Bursts I can understand this.
But since you have to be on grid I even would advise against using 1 Rig and simply use 2 Bursts per CS and bring more Commandships?


Or you could ask 5 buddies to fly battlecruisers to spit the links on you.


The question remains, why do we need wing command 4 when we have a gang of 6 pilots, not 50000?

Just a question, no worries. Command ships are so overprices now that nobody but overpaid carebears and blob-muppets would want to fly them anyway.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#25 - 2016-10-27 07:42:46 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Cassiel Seraphim wrote:
You obviously haven't paid attention or tried things on Singularity.

Currently on Singularity you need to have every single pre-requisite skill in order to interact with a ship (assemble, board, undock etc). So even if you have Command Ships trained, Battlecruiser V trained etc, you'll still need to train the two racial warfare skills up to IV before you can use the ship again.

I'm guessing this is either a simple as the new Shield Command (former Siege Warfare) and Skirmish Command (former Skirmish Warfare), for a Sleipnir for example, becoming a "primary" skill requirement instead of a secondary skill required for the primary skill Command Ships ... or it has to do with the way they implemented the alpha vs omega clone "downgrade" that locks you out of ships you no longer have the skills for.

This means that a lot of older pilots will no longer be able to fly ships they currently can fly. Thus won't "be able to fly what they can already fly", which has often been CCP's stance on changes.

This is just the change from secondary skills to primary.
CCP, you need to put this into the change to first post, since currently those skills are including in the CS requirements and it makes it sound like you are totally removing the Command skills, not moving them onto the ships themselves.



And moreover, means old dudes probably won't be able to fly them come patch day if this is the case.

Last I checked sisi, the link skills were moved out of command ships but into the hull, which means despite having several guys with command ship 5, they're not going to be able to fly it.

Maybe.

WTB CONFIRMATION
Syri Taneka
NOVA-CAINE
#26 - 2016-10-27 16:38:48 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Cassiel Seraphim wrote:
You obviously haven't paid attention or tried things on Singularity.

Currently on Singularity you need to have every single pre-requisite skill in order to interact with a ship (assemble, board, undock etc). So even if you have Command Ships trained, Battlecruiser V trained etc, you'll still need to train the two racial warfare skills up to IV before you can use the ship again.

I'm guessing this is either a simple as the new Shield Command (former Siege Warfare) and Skirmish Command (former Skirmish Warfare), for a Sleipnir for example, becoming a "primary" skill requirement instead of a secondary skill required for the primary skill Command Ships ... or it has to do with the way they implemented the alpha vs omega clone "downgrade" that locks you out of ships you no longer have the skills for.

This means that a lot of older pilots will no longer be able to fly ships they currently can fly. Thus won't "be able to fly what they can already fly", which has often been CCP's stance on changes.

This is just the change from secondary skills to primary.
CCP, you need to put this into the change to first post, since currently those skills are including in the CS requirements and it makes it sound like you are totally removing the Command skills, not moving them onto the ships themselves.



And moreover, means old dudes probably won't be able to fly them come patch day if this is the case.

Last I checked sisi, the link skills were moved out of command ships but into the hull, which means despite having several guys with command ship 5, they're not going to be able to fly it.

Maybe.

WTB CONFIRMATION


I'm... not exactly sure what you're talking about.

Do you mean the racial ship skills (Frigate, Cruiser, BC) or the Warfare skills each CS gives ship-race-based buffs to?

If you mean the Warfare skills... I guess what you're trying to say is that you fly Vulture/Nighthawk or Eos/Astarte but never bothered running a Sensor Integrity Link because you don't like your fleet mates enough to boost their lock range and sensor strengths?
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#27 - 2016-10-27 21:06:55 UTC
Syri Taneka wrote:


I'm... not exactly sure what you're talking about.

Do you mean the racial ship skills (Frigate, Cruiser, BC) or the Warfare skills each CS gives ship-race-based buffs to?

If you mean the Warfare skills... I guess what you're trying to say is that you fly Vulture/Nighthawk or Eos/Astarte but never bothered running a Sensor Integrity Link because you don't like your fleet mates enough to boost their lock range and sensor strengths?

There are a bunch of people who trained command ships back when you needed Logistics & HAC V amongst other things to be able to fly them. And may not have trained all the warfare skills. Not all the CS were originally primarily link boats and some made good DPS boats even then.
When CCP did the previous skill change to CS, they (self included) could all still fly all the CS they previously could, to the same ability they previously could. As DPS boats if you didn't have the link skills trained, or as links if you did.

If CCP stick with what is in Sisi less than 2 weeks from live, all those people suddenly can't fly those ships, which breaks CCP's normal rule of 'If you could fly it before you can after'.

Now they have made exceptions to this in the past when it was only a short train to sort it out, but they also gave months of notice of those exceptions to allow people plenty of time to fit the new training in without screwing over the general skill plan.
In this case, they aren't giving any notice at all, they haven't even officially commented on it if the Sisi build is old and those requirements won't exist, or if that is what we will actually be getting live. And what existing CS pilots are meant to do.
Selnix
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#28 - 2016-10-28 00:27:48 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Skyler Hawk wrote:
Will there be any changes to the CS themselves and their combat capabilities, or is it just the skill requirements that are being changed?


At this time just the skill requirements. We'll be observing how the use of these ships changes with the introduction of Command Bursts and making changes as necessary in a future patch.


Any chance of getting the third innate burst fitting back that we currently have? If we weren't losing the skill based HP/sig/etc boosts I'd understand as the third would not be needed to give the same boosts you currently can.

Is it really necessary for us to throw away half of our rig slots by default to fill the same role with the same effectiveness we would have previously been able to without that loss?
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#29 - 2016-10-28 00:31:01 UTC
Selnix wrote:


Any chance of getting the third innate burst fitting back that we currently have? If we weren't losing the skill based HP/sig/etc boosts I'd understand as the third would not be needed to give the same boosts you currently can.

Is it really necessary for us to throw away half of our rig slots by default to fill the same role with the same effectiveness we would have previously been able to without that loss?

You know they turned 2 of the previous boosts into a single boost right?
So the third boost you are asking for actually gives you more power than before.
Selnix
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#30 - 2016-10-28 01:23:37 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Selnix wrote:


Any chance of getting the third innate burst fitting back that we currently have? If we weren't losing the skill based HP/sig/etc boosts I'd understand as the third would not be needed to give the same boosts you currently can.

Is it really necessary for us to throw away half of our rig slots by default to fill the same role with the same effectiveness we would have previously been able to without that loss?

You know they turned 2 of the previous boosts into a single boost right?
So the third boost you are asking for actually gives you more power than before.


The third was driven solely by a bonus passed down based on your leadership skills regardless of what links you fitted m8.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#31 - 2016-10-28 01:55:27 UTC
Selnix wrote:

The third was driven solely by a bonus passed down based on your leadership skills regardless of what links you fitted m8.

Yes, I'm aware of that, but unless I'm really misremembering the new link, it gives more than the 15% you could get from the old skills.
So you are asking for a net buff.
Raz Xym
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2016-10-28 14:35:49 UTC
I will be very disappointed if I am no longer able to fly command ships. Taking away functionality and forcing players to priority train or spend money on a ship skills is not a good idea. I know I will view it as a money grab hoping all the older players will be lazy and buy injectors.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#33 - 2016-10-28 19:38:45 UTC
Raz Xym wrote:
I will be very disappointed if I am no longer able to fly command ships. Taking away functionality and forcing players to priority train or spend money on a ship skills is not a good idea. I know I will view it as a money grab hoping all the older players will be lazy and buy injectors.

It's about 3 days training if you didn't have any of the specific leadership skills trained I believe. Not 'significant' but it's very lacking in warning if that's what they are going through with.
Sylvia Kildare
Kinetic Fury
#34 - 2016-10-29 01:35:17 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hello everyone! This thread will be about the changes to Command Ship skill requirements planned for the Ascension expansion this November.

Earlier in the development cycle we had been investigating making stat changes to the Command Ships at the same time as this release, but after further investigation we have decided to hold off on stat and bonus changes for now. We'll observe how the Command Burst introduction changes the meta around these ships and make changes informed by that information in the near future.


But... but...

"Blog three will focus on the balance tweaks being made to combat-focused boosting ships to release alongside the new system."

What happened to blog three. ;_;

There's even an extra week. The ships themselves are receiving no PG/CPU/slot layout changes... no tank or DPS or application buffs for them being on-grid? ... look, ofc overbuffing them now would just lead to a nerf later on (see t3dds, esp. confessor and svipul), but... not making any changes to the ships themselves while they come from off-grid to on-grid is... um... not good.
Sylvia Kildare
Kinetic Fury
#35 - 2016-10-29 01:43:33 UTC
oiukhp Muvila wrote:
Brown Pathfinder wrote:
Fozzie can't you give CS 3 rig slots? And give extra mid +1 across the board?


Why should a Command Ship be the only Tech II ships to have three rig slots? The whole point of limiting Tech II ships to two rig slots was to give Tech I ships some advantage over Tech II ships.


There's no need to give Command Ships three rigs. CCP just needs to keep it where Command Ships can use 3 warfare links/command bursts at the same time instead of downgrading us to 2 links/bursts like they talked about in the first devblog.

Now that it seems we're getting this forum thread instead of the devblog that first devblog promised... not sure if it'll ever be fully gone over until a balance pass many months from now. ;_;

elitatwo wrote:
Or you could ask 5 buddies to fly battlecruisers to spit the links on you.

The question remains, why do we need wing command 4 when we have a gang of 6 pilots, not 50000?

Just a question, no worries. Command ships are so overprices now that nobody but overpaid carebears and blob-muppets would want to fly them anyway.


Wing Command will have nothing to do with the size of fleet come November 15th.

Leadership + Wing Command + Fleet Command are going to increase the boosting sphere range. They threw WC 4 in there to replace the armor/shield/info/skirmish requirements, it's quite the decrease in training time. Sure, the WC 4 requirement makes no sense, but it's much less training time for newbros to boosting, so meh, I've no problem with the swap skills-requirement-wise.

I just want my Eos and Claymore to perform better on grid than the current editions do, and apparently we aren't going to get that when we have to come on grid. Ah well.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#36 - 2016-10-29 01:56:14 UTC
Raz Xym wrote:
...I know I will view it as a money grab hoping all the older players will be lazy and buy injectors.


What in the world of warcr- errm New Eden gave you the idea that we are lazy?

Do you really think I would waste any currency to make a lobotomy for a 6 day skill, after training for more than a decade??

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Celthric Kanerian
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#37 - 2016-10-29 13:45:54 UTC
Really good change considering how the command skills themselves takes +50 days to train for.
Ele Rebellion
Fat Dragon Mining Co.
Darwinism.
#38 - 2016-10-30 17:26:52 UTC
Fozzie:

What will happen to pilots that have the Command ship injected/trained but do not have the Wing Command skill trained?

Will we have to train wing command to fly the command ships?
Tjak Erattic
Funky Monkey Business
#39 - 2016-11-04 16:49:20 UTC
Ok so with these large changes to how command boosts work... im sure there are many of us who have no interest in on grid boosting... therefore would have never trained it..

Are you going to refund all our Leadership sp so we can choose?

Im sure the months/years of sp in leadership that is no longer wanted would be better used somewhere else now..

YOU made the changes... we did the training BEFORE.

We should be given a choice what to do with it now!
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2016-11-04 18:15:35 UTC
Tjak Erattic wrote:
Ok so with these large changes to how command boosts work... im sure there are many of us who have no interest in on grid boosting... therefore would have never trained it..

Are you going to refund all our Leadership sp so we can choose?

Im sure the months/years of sp in leadership that is no longer wanted would be better used somewhere else now..

YOU made the changes... we did the training BEFORE.

We should be given a choice what to do with it now!

Look at the number of skill, ship and mechanics changes since refunding SP became doable.
Look at the number of refunds issued in that time.
What do you think the answer to your question is?
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