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T3 battleships: Capital Killers
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Dior Ambraelle
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2016-10-16 20:12:27 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Dior Ambraelle wrote:
Deckel wrote:

Of course another option could be to have a special battleship that is designed to carry only a single weapon. 1 reduced power Doomsday weapon that burns out after a single shot, and maybe even causes your ship to explode afterwards.

I think doomsday weapons should be used the capitals only.

Also, I don't think these XL battleships would be used against fleets that have no capitals. However they could become especially useful against citadels in hi-sec.


Yeah, you'll be able to pay a billion isk to do maybe 2k damage at the absolute most, and won't be able to apply that to anything smaller than a citadel.

Or, you can spend 200mil and bring two talos to do the job faster instead...


I don't think these need to cost a billion. The T3 idea for these was dropped quite early, what if we would make these T1, like the BC versions, and calculating about the same base price difference these would cost roughly 250-275 million. For this money you would get about 12k HP without resistances and let's say 4 XL weapon slots.
According to my 5 minutes long calculations (using Mega Pulse Laser I, Quad Mega Pulse Laser I and Dual Giga Pulse Laser I with standard frequency crystals), during which I ignored every possible bonuses the weapons could get and the base armor and shield damage of the ammo, the damage calculation looks like this:

- an Oracle with 8 MPL I deals about 100dps (768 damage/7.8 sec) and has 21km optimal range
- this new BS with 4 Quad MPL I would deal about 50dps (300 damage/6 sec) with 33km optimal range
- this new BS with 4 DGPL I would deal about 165dps (2k damage/12 sec) with 42km optimal range

So... the BCs have double damage, while these have double tank. I call it a tie, however the XL guns in this case shoot somewhat faster, which could be important.
Equipped with anti-capital guns, this new BS have double tank, double range and 1.5x more damage. And this is just for the short range combat, with XL beam lasers the optimal goes over 100km, while the damage is still about 1.25x more than what the BCs can deal to close range.

These ships should have more firepower than the dreadnoughts which only have 3 of these guns, while being much faster, I think this means they have their place in the low/null capital fleet battles.
And if we design ships against hi-sec citadels, why is it a problem exactly?
Freighters would have one more thing to worry about though...

If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it!

But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#22 - 2016-10-16 21:30:47 UTC
...You have no idea what you are talking about and should probably stop posting.
Dior Ambraelle
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2016-10-16 22:57:03 UTC
Then could you please explain where was I wrong?

If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it!

But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#24 - 2016-10-16 23:11:56 UTC
For one thing, you seem to have forgotten the existence of a siege module. For another, you've looked at t1 stats with zero skills as opposed to something anyone would ever actually use. (an oracle with all Vs, t2 pulses and two magstabs, for example, tops 700 DPS with scorch, while a t2 fit revelation does 7000 dps with scorch, before implants/rigs.

You cannot balance anything around how it performs with zero bonuses.

Capital guns also don't actually apply to anything smaller than a battleship without serious support.

And if these things have more firepower than a dread, bearing in mind that a moros or a nag can top 10,000 DPS, one of them solo could hit the damage cap on a fortizar. They would also cost one tenth of the price.

Why would anyone ever fly a dread again?
Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#25 - 2016-10-16 23:32:49 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
...Why? It does battleship damage for pirate battleship cost. just use a pirate battleship.

Or a talos, if you want to do more damage for much lower cost.


Can you explain what you mean by 'tanks like a t2 battleship', given that a properly set up vargur can tank something insane like 30k dps, but a widow can tank a fraction of that? Same for the rest of the stats, what do you even mean by t2 battleship stats? (And how do you figure a 1b t2bs is the same price as a 3b dread?)



Who do you think is going to field these things in the kind of numbers that would be required for them to be any use at all, when they could simply use a quarter of that number of dreadnaughts for the same effect?

Why do they have a warp core strength bonus?



Is this thread posted about two years too late or something?


There's something ironic about this post Big smile
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#26 - 2016-10-17 00:22:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Arronicus
This is pretty garbage. I can't find anything at all compelling in these ships to make them remotely desirable. The immunity to doomsday damage in defensive mode does little to make up for the fact that these ships are otherwise completely lackluster in all areas. Gotta agree with Baltec on this one, you'd be a fool to use these over t1 hulls.
Dior Ambraelle
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2016-10-17 02:06:28 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
For one thing, you seem to have forgotten the existence of a siege module. For another, you've looked at t1 stats with zero skills as opposed to something anyone would ever actually use. (an oracle with all Vs, t2 pulses and two magstabs, for example, tops 700 DPS with scorch, while a t2 fit revelation does 7000 dps with scorch, before implants/rigs.

You cannot balance anything around how it performs with zero bonuses.

Capital guns also don't actually apply to anything smaller than a battleship without serious support.

And if these things have more firepower than a dread, bearing in mind that a moros or a nag can top 10,000 DPS, one of them solo could hit the damage cap on a fortizar. They would also cost one tenth of the price.

Why would anyone ever fly a dread again?

I was calculating with t1 stuff because it was the easiest for me. According to you, with maxed skills and a proper full t2 fit we can have about 7 times the damage I was counting with. Is this ratio consistent for all weapons by the way?

Why would anyone use a dread if we have these?
Well, dreads can use siege modules for example, which boosts their firepower and defense. With that a dread could probably kill a lot of these battleships with no problem, while taking minimal damage. Also, dreads have about 300k HP without resistances, which is about 10 times as much as these things could have the most. Not to mention the entosis links or the emergency hull energizers if everything goes wrong.
And as subcapitals, these battleships are affected by the micro jump field generators and the GTFO.

If my calculations were wrong, I'll accept it. to be honest I'm not really interested in capital fights. But this won't change my opinion, I still think these ships can find their places in the arsenal.

If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it!

But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.
Deckel
Island Paradise
#28 - 2016-10-17 05:52:45 UTC
There are always balancing issues whenever something new is implemented. Lets just assume that XL guns on a specialty battleship can be balanced to the point where it can be a useful, but not overpowered ship.

So what are some benefits to implementing this?

The main benefit I can think of is that these ships would become entry-level ships into the capital ship tier because it lets pilots train and utilize the XL guns before needing to invest in the expensive ship hull. Most players hesitate to ever even buy or train capitals skills because of the huge time investment to get proficiently skilled in them. It can also gives those specialized in capital skills the ability to perform a utility role in highsec by allowing a XL gun fitted battleships into high security space (I'll assume that them being properly balanced means this doesn't turn out to be a horrible idea)

As an entry-level ship into the capital ship build it will naturally be less powerful and more vulnerable than a Capital, but will be able to project the appropriate damage to assist in battling them.
Deckel
Island Paradise
#29 - 2016-10-17 06:10:46 UTC
Another way of doing something about this might be to create a new form of bomber.
Cruiser or Battlecruiser sized ships that can fit XL torps

I'm not suggesting to give them the covert ops cloak btw, maybe some sort of a bonus to Microjumpdrives though instead
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