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[news] Theology Council Issues Advisory Exhortation on Status of Clone
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Persephone Alleile
Tartarus Covert Operations
#41 - 2016-10-12 15:46:23 UTC
Hmm, too bad my mother doesn't subscribe to the Amarr faith. She still considers me to have died years ago when I became a capsuleer and believes my soul has already migrated to it's next incarnation.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#42 - 2016-10-12 15:56:55 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Also, also, the Amarr aren't exactly all-forgiving.


Garkeh Khanid defied the direct edict of the Emperor, acted in contravention of the policy of the Sacred Flesh, stole a massive amount of the Empire's military power and stood athwart the accepted and official 'will of God' for centuries, and then was welcomed back into the fold and given an express ride to 'paradise', explicitly.

If you've got enough money and enough power to offer them, the Amarr have proven they'll forgive anything.
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#43 - 2016-10-12 16:20:47 UTC
Mitara Newelle wrote:
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
Punishment seems too severe for a devoted servant who just lost his liege and couldn't cope with grief in a proper manner.

Disagree.

One does not repeatedly after being warned numerous times by The Order to remain silent continue to spout heresy and expect to walk away without severe consequences. He not only dishonored himself but the House of Kor-Azor as it's representative. Most of us have had to grieve for our respective Heirs. If this is how he opts to cope with such grief he was not fit to be a Holder to begin with.

If you may Lady Newelle.

There is a difference between justice and drastic punishment. It would be foolish to argue that insolence and breaking the code of demeanor should go unpunished. One thing is to strip accused of his rank and his fief and completely different thing to brand devoted servant who just lost his liege, the servant that fought with such zeal and devotion for his lord a blasphemer and a heretic. I would like to draw your attention to two precedents that happend in YC 105, one during inauguration of His Greatness Doriam II and actions of Fleet Admiral Sulei Manatir in service of Sarum Family, and another was a response to Stavros's tactless criticism. It is also good to remember The Word of God that states "The Mercy of our Emperor is Limitless. His Rule is Benign and Righteous. His Love is Perpetual.".

So in consideration with everything that transpired and all details kept in mind it would be a welcome sight to see Her Holiness benign and righteous judgment without any obstructions from St. Tetrimon or Privy Council. All of this of course if accused understands his insubordinate behavior and plea for forgiveness.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#44 - 2016-10-12 16:22:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Arrendis wrote:
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Also, also, the Amarr aren't exactly all-forgiving.


Garkeh Khanid defied the direct edict of the Emperor, acted in contravention of the policy of the Sacred Flesh, stole a massive amount of the Empire's military power and stood athwart the accepted and official 'will of God' for centuries, and then was welcomed back into the fold and given an express ride to 'paradise', explicitly.

If you've got enough money and enough power to offer them, the Amarr have proven they'll forgive anything.


See, you keep asking for solid, enduring, and inviolable rules, Ms. Arrendis. That's not what I admire about it, though. The Empire seeks to be the Kingdom of God in this world, but it's a nation of humans-- frail, fallible, prone to weaknesses of every kind. It has to be designed to allow for that, and so it is. The Amarr faith has been in a state of metamorphosis for basically its entire history, and there's a lot of its doctrine that's deeply pragmatic (take the Sacred Flesh itself, a doctrine kind of transparently designed to forestall entrenched gerontocracy).

There's tension here, but it's tension by design. Principle is important, but it mustn't, itself, be allowed to be a source for disaster. When needs must, needs must. Sometimes it's necessary to do what needs doing, and leave God's judgment to God. Nothing as rigid as you're imagining could have endured so long.

Durability in the face of history, the ability to keep a civilization afloat, come what may, for thousands of years-- that's what I admire.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#45 - 2016-10-12 16:32:04 UTC
It is highly unwise to speak about immortality for those who exist for way less time so far than an average baseliner.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#46 - 2016-10-12 16:35:28 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
It is highly unwise to speak about immortality for those who exist for way less time so far than an average baseliner.


Your definition of death isn't one everyone shares, though, Ms. Kim.

(I agree, though-- we're pseudo-immortal at best, even while we're active.)
Arrendis
TK Corp
#47 - 2016-10-12 16:39:26 UTC
Openly advertising their corruption and insistence that there is One Truth you must obey—unless you can afford to pay them to set it aside—isn't a virtue in any society I'm aware of, Aria.

Quote:
Principle is important, but it mustn't, itself, be allowed to be a source for disaster. When needs must, needs must. Sometimes it's necessary to do what needs doing, and leave God's judgment to God. Nothing as rigid as you're imagining could have endured so long.


Principle is a thing society must uphold. In the kinds of situations you're presenting, the responsible and moral thing to do is for individuals to take the action they must, and when the crisis has passed, they must acknowledge that those actions were in contravention of the principles their society expects of its members, and submit themselves to judgment for their criminal acts. At that point, society can choose to be merciful, but there must be an acknowledgment of the offense.

That is not the case with Khanid. At no point was wrongdoing acknowledged. At no point was there even an offering of regret. In a dire situation where terrible things must be done to avert worse disaster, I would at least expect that: at least an offering of 'I do not regret doing what was necessary, but I do regret the necessity itself'. Instead, there was nothing. Whatever might have been offered privately, that addresses only the personal transgression of Lord and Liege, not the greater transgression against society.

All things considered, this latest development only reinforces that the individuals tasked with providing the highest levels of moral guidance are themselves corrupt and easily bought. In light of that, how can any of their decisions be trusted to be anything but self-serving?
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#48 - 2016-10-12 16:47:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
Arrendis is spot on.

If Amarr does not uphold the principles of the faith, then we do not deserve our Empire. Better to collapse than to continue in sin. Stability for stability's sake is worth nothing.

The choice to allow Khanid to return to the Empire and to participate in the Succession Trials (for a second time) did much to erode the confidence many people once had in those who are supposed to be our betters. That decision now taints all forthcoming decisions like this Exhortation.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#49 - 2016-10-12 17:03:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Arrendis wrote:
Principle is a thing society must uphold.


You say this, and yet I'm aware of not one long-lasting society that does.

Not. One.

The place where you really slander the Amarr, though, is where you suggest this happened easily.

Consider what they got for allowing King Khanid his chance to claim the throne. They pretty much got the Khanid Kingdom back, bloodlessly. That's something no one had managed at all. A more than fair price for allowing King Khanid a somewhat outside chance at the throne and then letting him die with honor.

This world is not kind to idealists, Ms. Arrendis. It's not very kind to pure pragmatists, either, eventually (what goes around comes around, etc.-- the Sani are as purely pragmatic as they come, and THEIR civilizations tend to go to bits in a handful of generations at best. See, e.g., the Takmahl).

The best arrangements seem to involve a careful blending and balance of the two, and the Amarr are really quite good at it.

(And always have been. Sorry, Ms. Kernher-- the experience of the Ealur, among others, suggests that sin being tolerated here and there isn't exactly new to the Empire.)
Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#50 - 2016-10-12 17:28:02 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
This world is not kind to idealists, Ms. Arrendis. It's not very kind to pure pragmatists, either, eventually (what goes around comes around, etc.-- the Sani are as purely pragmatic as they come, and THEIR civilizations tend to go to bits in a handful of generations at best. See, e.g., the Takmahl).


Read my award-winning History of the Takmahl Empire.

Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
Ayallah
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#51 - 2016-10-12 17:37:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Ayallah
Samira Kernher wrote:
The choice to allow Khanid to return to the Empire and to participate in the Succession Trials (for a second time) did much to erode the confidence many people once had in those who are supposed to be our betters. That decision now taints all forthcoming decisions like this Exhortation.
If he had won I would agree with you. His death and the return of the kingdom to its place in the Empire is a victory though.

It is the duty of the faithful to follow when they do not understand and trust in the result. God's will was done in the end even though for many months anyone would have doubted his return and the decision to allow it. Erosion of confidence is exactly what happened but in the end, Jamyl's decision proved to be wise.

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#52 - 2016-10-12 17:55:25 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
You say this, and yet I'm aware of not one long-lasting society that does.

Not. One.


And this is why most societies fail, morally.

Quote:
Consider what they got for allowing King Khanid his chance to claim the throne. They pretty much got the Khanid Kingdom back, bloodlessly. That's something no one had managed at all. A more than fair price for allowing King Khanid a somewhat outside chance at the throne and then letting him die with honor.


We got it back in a way where it:

-Doesn't have to change
-Doesn't have to be punished for its actions
-Is able to be a member while also enjoying its special independent qualities
-Is able to spread its twisted ideals to us

It needed to be Reclaimed. But we didn't Reclaim it. We brushed its sins under the rug and forgave it. There is more to creating the Kingdom of God than simply expanding our borders on a map.

Quote:
(And always have been. Sorry, Ms. Kernher-- the experience of the Ealur, among others, suggests that sin being tolerated here and there isn't exactly new to the Empire.)


It isn't. And that tolerance is something that needs to change.

Ayallah wrote:
His death and the return of the kingdom to its place in the Empire is a victory though.

It is the duty of the faithful to follow when they do not understand and trust in the result.


Any victory won through sin is no victory. But yes, I do follow. Events have simply made it very difficult to trust.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#53 - 2016-10-12 17:56:29 UTC
New Empress, New rules. What amazes me are the number of you who believe that the Empress has a divine mandate from heaven to rule in the manner she believes is best but now question those changes.

God didn't elect a conservative candidate, he elected one who is likely to depart from the past. That Empress is now acting in precisely the way one would expect. If it has been God's plan that the Empire suffer for a few generations because of adherence to certain principles, why would you not expect a countervailing period where the Empire now changes those policies and enjoys some prosperity therefore.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Aldrith Shutaq
Atash e Sarum Vanguard
#54 - 2016-10-12 18:10:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Aldrith Shutaq
Oh, this is rich. A member of Goonswarm giving a lecture about political expediency, all the while willingly serving in a fascistic dictatorship that thrives on propaganda and the perpetuation of the myth of the Mittani and his greatness. Save your false concerns for your own 'empire', I hear it needs a bit of help.

Ms. Kernher, I strongly suggest that you cease doubting the motivations and validity of Theology Council exhortations in public and trust in the sacred processes of their office. If they truly believed clones and capsuleers were not worthy of acknowledgement by the Imperial Rite, they could surely keep this matter in limbo as they have for so long, despite the Empress's suggestions. I do not need to remind you that they are an independent body that interprets and maintains the Scripture, and they fulfill that purpose quite well. I also suggest that you stop doubting the judgement of the Empress, as that is not a healthy habit to get into, especially after having a coronation marred by a rebellion.

I am going to clue you both into a little secret you both are probably bright enough to figure out yourself but are conveniently ignoring so you can complain: capsuleers are the future of warfare. The Empire clearly recognizes they are the future of warfare, and that to survive she will need to rely more heavily upon them in the future. Now, this is the practical argument to make. God had shown the capsuleer and clone soldier as the new dominant instruments of war. If the Empire does not use them, it will fall at their hands. Does that mean God wills the Empire to fall in the face of an onslaught of soulless abominations? Somehow I doubt that.

What this exhortation suggests is that cloned people are exactly that - people. We are not demons, and we are not sefrim. We are people, with all of their failings and obligations, now including the obligation to abide by the Amarr faith. This is not a freeing suggestion, this is placing the burden of human morality back upon us. We have souls that may be enlightened or be damned, and it is up to us to take care of those souls. It is also now the responsibility of faithful capsuleers to bring the word to others, as they may now be saved as we have been. Basically, it means we behave exactly as we have been already, but now with certainty that what we are doing is not a futile exercise.

In summary, God apparently does not consider us as special. He expects us to abide by the laws set forth to all humanity. How is this even a revelation?

Accept this chance to be saved. You are foolish if you dig your heels in and refuse to believe you are responsible for yourself just because you are a capsuleer. You are a moral, thinking, human being that just happens to have been re-made through technology. Your power and ability to temporarily escape death do not exempt you from anything but mortal laws - God's law still hunts your head if you fail to abide by it. I, for one, welcome this. The rest of you, perhaps not, but today I am reminded of a particular bit of Scripture that describes the hopefully soon to be confirmed place of faithful and unfaithful capsuleers everywhere:

"So the Lord sent forth the Chosen,
to bring forth the light of faith
And those who embrace his love
Shall be saved by his grace
For we are his shepherds in the darkness
His Angels of Mercy.
But those who turn away from his light,
And reject his true word
Shall be struck down by his wrath
For we are his retribution incarnate
His Angels of Vengeance"

- The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 4:45

We can be Angels of Mercy or Angels of Vengeance in the coming age. Pray you allow us to be merciful.

Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle

Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Lord Consort of Lady Mitara Newelle, Champion of House Sarum and Holder of Damnidios Para'nashu
Arrendis
TK Corp
#55 - 2016-10-12 18:17:20 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:

You say this, and yet I'm aware of not one long-lasting society that does.

Not. One.


So? Societies are collections of living things, no different than a colony of ants, a herd of cattle, or any other. They are born. They grow. They live.

And they die. And that is right. That is proper. It is the natural order of things.

Quote:

The place where you really slander the Amarr, though, is where you suggest this happened easily.

Consider what they got for allowing King Khanid his chance to claim the throne. They pretty much got the Khanid Kingdom back, bloodlessly. That's something no one had managed at all. A more than fair price for allowing King Khanid a somewhat outside chance at the throne and then letting him die with honor.


Princples are not a business transaction, Aria. 'Consider what they got'... only proves my point. If you offer them enough money and power, they will give you whatever you like. If the people who tell you what is virtue are corrupt, how can you believe them on anything?

Quote:

This world is not kind to idealists, Ms. Arrendis.


No, Aria, the universe is not kind at all. Nor is it cruel. It simply is. The universe knows no moral compass. That is a human invention. And corruption and graft are by their very nature anathema to it. It is why so many of us in the sovereign powers of nullsec recognize that the necessities of realpolitik will make monsters of us all, over time. It is why we, unlike the Empire, do not claim to be the agents of supremely virtuous Divine Will. It is in that claim of moral authority that these moves of graft, of moral compromise, of realpolitik trumping principle become hypocrisy, and it is that hypocrisy that is offensive to many, and an insult to all who follow them—whether they perceive the insult, or not.

It is that hypocrisy, that clear and obvious abdication of their moral function, that should make it obvious that no, the duty of the faithful is not to blindly follow the edicts of openly corrupt men, but to seek their own understanding of God and morality, and obey that.

Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
New Empress, New rules. What amazes me are the number of you who believe that the Empress has a divine mandate from heaven to rule in the manner she believes is best but now question those changes.


How fortunate, then, that not all of us who question the sincerity of this decree believe in her.
Aldrith Shutaq
Atash e Sarum Vanguard
#56 - 2016-10-12 18:29:02 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
It is that hypocrisy, that clear and obvious abdication of their moral function, that should make it obvious that no, the duty of the faithful is not to blindly follow the edicts of openly corrupt men, but to seek their own understanding of God and morality, and obey that.

Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
New Empress, New rules. What amazes me are the number of you who believe that the Empress has a divine mandate from heaven to rule in the manner she believes is best but now question those changes.


How fortunate, then, that not all of us who question the sincerity of this decree believe in her.

Oh, look, I think I spotted the first one to be an Angel of Vengeance towards.

Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle

Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Lord Consort of Lady Mitara Newelle, Champion of House Sarum and Holder of Damnidios Para'nashu
Arrendis
TK Corp
#57 - 2016-10-12 18:30:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Arrendis
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:
Oh, this is rich. A member of Goonswarm giving a lecture about political expediency, all the while willing serving in a fascistic dictatorship that thrives on propaganda and the perpetuation of the myth of the Mittani and his greatness. Save your false concerns for your own 'empire', I hear it needs a bit of help.


Nonsense. We're not fascistic at all. We're a socialist totalitarian dictatorship. We're also doing just fine. Really, Aldrith, you hear a lot of things. It's a pity you never listen to the ones that are true.

Quote:

I am going to clue you both into a little secret you both are probably bright enough to figure out yourself but are conveniently ignoring so you can complain: capsuleers are the future of warfare. The Empire clearly recognizes they are the future of warfare, and that to survive she will need to rely more heavily upon them in the future. Now, this is the practical argument to make. God had shown the capsuleer and clone soldier as the new dominant instruments of war. If the Empire does not use them, it will fall at their hands. Does that mean God wills the Empire to fall in the face of an onslaught of soulless abominations? Somehow I doubt that.


Obviously, Capsuleers are the future of warfare. Water's still wet, too. Neither of these has anything at all to do with God sticking his tongue in the ears of the head of state or the Theology Council. If anything, this clearly demonstrates there's no divine guidance at work, just a bunch of people, making it up as they go along.

Aldrith Shutaq wrote:

Oh, look, I think I spotted the first one to be an Angel of Vengeance towards.


I'm in 9CG6-H, only 7 jumps out of the Empire's vassal-state run by House Khanid. Feel free to bring some friends along. It's only 8j from highsec. You can get almost all the way here without having to worry about a single enemy ship. Heck, you can probably even dock here in the Fortizar, since it's a semi-freeport. C'mon. Get vengeful, baby.
Aldrith Shutaq
Atash e Sarum Vanguard
#58 - 2016-10-12 18:36:35 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Obviously, Capsuleers are the future of warfare. Water's still wet, too. Neither of these has anything at all to do with God sticking his tongue in the ears of the head of state or the Theology Council. If anything, this clearly demonstrates there's no divine guidance at work, just a bunch of people, making it up as they go along.

Arrendis, I know exactly what you are doing. I also know exactly what you want. You want the Empire to fail. You want it to burn, and you just have a fancy way of expressing that desire.

You are not calling out a hypocrisy. You are upset that the Empire might counter the power of capsuleers by incorporating them fully into its society. That is a threat to you, and to every null power out there, including yours. And you do not want that to happen, so you cast doubt upon this decision because you want to sway more hesitant Amarr to resist this change. I get it. I understand. You do not give a damn about Amarr purity or morality, you give a damn about taking advantage of the sense of purity and morality.

Shut it. You have no business here. Your words are false, your manipulative skinks**t is old. But now I can be confident your enfeebled soul is going to pop out of existence when you die for the last time, so I'm not too worried about you. I do worry about those you are trying to corrupt, however.

Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle

Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Lord Consort of Lady Mitara Newelle, Champion of House Sarum and Holder of Damnidios Para'nashu
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#59 - 2016-10-12 18:37:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:
I do not need to remind you that they are an independent body that interprets and maintains the Scripture, and they fulfill that purpose quite well. I also suggest that you stop doubting the judgement of the Empress, as that is not a healthy habit to get into, especially after having a coronation marred by a rebellion.


The judgments of the Theology Council, and the Empress, must be doubted. We must all be doubted, at all times. It is our duty to prove our worth before God. The one whose arrogance believes their test already passed risks being cast down from Heaven at their Final Judgment. No one is guaranteed entry. If the Theology Council and the Empress are doing God's will, then blessed be they. If the Theology Council and the Empress are acting according to God's will, then no one needs to defend them, because it is their actions that are important to God. But they must be challenged, and they must prove themselves worthy, like we all must. We've given a free pass to sinners for too long, simply because they can hide behind their titles or their blood.

Which test reveals more of the soul, the test that a man will take to prove his faith, or the test that finds the man who believed his faith already proven? If you know this answer, then you also know which of these challenges bear the greatest penalty for failure.
-Missions 5:14

Quote:
I am going to clue you both into a little secret you both are probably bright enough to figure out yourself but are conveniently ignoring so you can complain: capsuleers are the future of warfare. The Empire clearly recognizes they are the future of warfare, and that to survive she will need to rely more heavily upon them in the future. Now, this is the practical argument to make. God had shown the capsuleer as the new dominant instrument of war. If the Empire does not use them, it will fall at their hands. Does that mean God wills the Empire is to fall in the face of an onslaught of soulless abominations? Somehow I doubt that.


We must find a way to succeed without them. Souls or not, capsuleers are a cancer on modern society, a breeding ground for sin and corruption of the worst sort, and more of them is only going to create further devastation.

Quote:
Accept this chance to be saved. You are foolish if you dig your heels in and refuse to believe you are responsible for yourself just because you are a capsuleer. You are a moral, thinking, human being that just happens to have been re-made through technology. Your power and ability to temporarily escape death do not exempt you from anything but mortal laws - God's law still hunts your head if you fail to abide by it. I, for one, welcome this.


Who said I refused to believe that? Since when have I ever said that we are not responsible? I have been arguing the opposite. My concerns are about our collective responsibility to uphold the faith, and whether or not we as a society are truly fulfilling it. It has nothing to do with whether or not clones have souls, but instead whether we as Amarr are meeting our obligations to be a righteous people worthy of God's love.
Aldrith Shutaq
Atash e Sarum Vanguard
#60 - 2016-10-12 18:42:36 UTC
I see I was too late.

Congratulations, Arrendis, enjoy your new pawn.

Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle

Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Lord Consort of Lady Mitara Newelle, Champion of House Sarum and Holder of Damnidios Para'nashu