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Dev blog: Building Dreams: Introducing Engineering Complexes

First post First post First post
Author
Angela Zelin
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#161 - 2016-10-10 20:41:42 UTC
Justine Musk wrote:
Also I was reading the fuel cost of the new modules.... 20 fuel / hour to research and copy, 20 to invent and 30 to manufacture something.... 70 fuel per hour to do what amedium tower does with 20. And for a fast reference the cheapest block (helium) cost 20k per block, making it 1.4mil per hour.

This count also ignore the onlining cost of these modules, at example on live a reprocessing module cost 5 blocks per hour but 320 to online and a market module the cost 40 block per hour need 2880 to online

How can a new players enter the industry gameplay when the basic structure with rigs and modules is going to be well over the 1bil cost, onlining the 3 basic module is going to cost probably 5k blocks (around 100+ mils) and at this point the new guy need to figure out what to do in the industry... while now to check how industry work in pos he can simply anchor a small pos, and with 10 fuel hour, no onlining cost, 30 minute anchoring and a cost under the 400mil he can check if he likes the doing industry or not.

I would be very discouraged by the upcoming system.

And please before saying "lol, go join a true man corp in null/low/wh" remember that everybody joined some high sec corp that hooked him / her to the game, and pushed him to move on other kind of spaces.

In my opinion to be a bit more "newbro" friendly remove the onlining cost (or reduce it by a great deal) from the industry modules.


Agreed that the fuel costs are on the crazy side. That definitely needs to get looked at.

However,
Who the **** said this stuff is suppose to be for new players?

Stations still exist.
POSes aren't going away any time soon.
There will be plenty of these structures open for public use.

SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#162 - 2016-10-10 20:43:32 UTC
Justine Musk wrote:


How can a new players enter the industry gameplay when the basic structure with rigs and modules is going to be well over the 1bil cost, onlining the 3 basic module is going to cost probably 5k blocks (around 100+ mils)


For what has to be the umpteenth time, now: By using OTHER PEOPLE'S STRUCTURES.

Please stop with the insipid implication that you can't even enter industrial play without owning your very own EC. It's ignorant at best, and an unabashed lie, at worst.

Using someone else's POS was generally infeasible because of the lack of personal storage and sufficiently granular permissions. There's no such concern under the new structure model.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Justine Musk
Space Exploration Technologies Corporation
#163 - 2016-10-10 20:44:09 UTC
Drago Shouna wrote:
Skia Aumer wrote:
Althalus Stenory wrote:
tl;dr; I need tons of isk to run multiple engineering complexes (EC) to have something hardly any better than my current POS

TBH, I'm afraid it'll be exactly opposite.
There will be gazillions of public ECs with the best possible rigs and zero fees.



Feel free to risk 10 manufacturing runs or 10 me runs and risk losing the lot if you want, I'll pass on that. Regardless of asset safety I'd rather not risk losing months of research just to have to start over...


That was also the case in the POS system we have now with a tiny difference.

What happen if the person owning the station offline the module or doesn't fuel it? Job cancelled? Job Halted? I'm not concerned about having to interrupt a job due to war, but having the chance that some guy trolls me by offlining the module or decide to unanchor when i've a 2 month me/te research in progress....
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#164 - 2016-10-10 20:45:50 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Skia Aumer wrote:


As for the investments, that should yield the same reward, as you say it. Does your pimped marauder provide the same isk per hour running level 4's as the same marauder in nullsec haven? Why dont you cry about that?
And what about operational costs? Did you compare them? How much does logistics cost for nullsec? Red and Black Frogs - they have different pricing, go figure.

Your Marauder does the same damage in both situations, with the same tank.
Same Isk, same reward.


So you're saying the DPS output of a ship is the "reward"?

That's uniquely daft, even for you.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Justine Musk
Space Exploration Technologies Corporation
#165 - 2016-10-10 20:52:15 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Justine Musk wrote:


How can a new players enter the industry gameplay when the basic structure with rigs and modules is going to be well over the 1bil cost, onlining the 3 basic module is going to cost probably 5k blocks (around 100+ mils)


For what has to be the umpteenth time, now: By using OTHER PEOPLE'S STRUCTURES.

Please stop with the insipid implication that you can't even enter industrial play without owning your very own EC. It's ignorant at best, and an unabashed lie, at worst.

Using someone else's POS was generally infeasible because of the lack of personal storage and sufficiently granular permissions. There's no such concern under the new structure model.


Because you really going to start a long manufacturing / research job in someone station that can be offlined from a moment to another, on top of being easly destructable and almost impossible to defend?

If i've to choose between a station or your EC, I'll pick the station anyday. These changes are to move people from station or pos to EC, but in this state they'll drive people from pos to station again.
Chani El'zrya
Beyond Frontier
Pandemic Horde
#166 - 2016-10-10 20:55:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Chani El'zrya
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Justine Musk wrote:


How can a new players enter the industry gameplay when the basic structure with rigs and modules is going to be well over the 1bil cost, onlining the 3 basic module is going to cost probably 5k blocks (around 100+ mils)


For what has to be the umpteenth time, now: By using OTHER PEOPLE'S STRUCTURES.

Please stop with the insipid implication that you can't even enter industrial play without owning your very own EC. It's ignorant at best, and an unabashed lie, at worst.

Using someone else's POS was generally infeasible because of the lack of personal storage and sufficiently granular permissions. There's no such concern under the new structure model.



The main points are the following:

1) With POS system a hi-sec solo player can own a structure which is very flexible, low cost in fuel, low in investment and save it from wardec.
2) When POS will be removed as you said a solo player needs to rely on OTHER PEOPLE'S STRUCTURES. This is much more restrictive. You need to find one that fit your needs, with low industrial index, low taxes not too far from hubs, hope they can survive a war dec, and so on and so on...

I don't see where are the improvements for those players.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#167 - 2016-10-10 20:56:11 UTC
At a POS I can deploy as many weapons as I want, then bring them online as required. If attacked I have the option to turn off industrial modules and online the weaponry & hardeners.

With Engineering Complexes I will basically be forced to either give up industry entirely, or find a large group of people I can pay to defend my structure against attackers. These things are basically loot piñatas. Larger vulnerability windows, fewer defences, lower hitpoints, same DPS caps (and no rep caps, because we just can't repair them ourselves) … it's going to be far easier to destroy an engineering complex than a POS with similar capabilities (remembering I can change a POS from industrial complex to ECM & resistances dickstar in a matter of minutes).

The message I'm receiving loud and clear is, "don't do industry if you're not one of the two largest coalitions in the game."
Althalus Stenory
Flying Blacksmiths
#168 - 2016-10-10 20:57:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Althalus Stenory
Angela Zelin wrote:
Skia Aumer wrote:
Althalus Stenory wrote:
tl;dr; I need tons of isk to run multiple engineering complexes (EC) to have something hardly any better than my current POS

TBH, I'm afraid it'll be exactly opposite.
There will be gazillions of public ECs with the best possible rigs and zero fees.


This guy gets it.

If you are 'too small' or solo to be able to defend your own structure. There are going to be TONS of these that are public use all over the place.

I agree, but if we "need" to always use other players structure, without "diving into it" by ourselves (because it's too expensive, risky, or any other reason), it's as worth as having the same mechanics / bonuses on the current stations instead of player structures.

And the problem is still the same : you need "TONS" of public EC to have what hardly better than we currently have, besides, it's not because you don't pay anything that the "problem" disappear.

Yes using another corps EC might be a solution, but then you have even less control than if you own it for offline, dock restriction, usage restriction, destruction etc. So no, for me it's not a solution when you have valuable stuff. :) (edit: or you need valuable trust, but not from random people / corp then)

Actually, i don't care about the fact of paying that much for it, but what I don't like is that the cost is far higher, for no real gain but far more risks.

EsiPy - Python 2.7 / 3.3+ Swagger Client based on pyswagger for ESI

Angela Zelin
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#169 - 2016-10-10 20:57:12 UTC
Justine Musk wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Justine Musk wrote:


How can a new players enter the industry gameplay when the basic structure with rigs and modules is going to be well over the 1bil cost, onlining the 3 basic module is going to cost probably 5k blocks (around 100+ mils)


For what has to be the umpteenth time, now: By using OTHER PEOPLE'S STRUCTURES.

Please stop with the insipid implication that you can't even enter industrial play without owning your very own EC. It's ignorant at best, and an unabashed lie, at worst.

Using someone else's POS was generally infeasible because of the lack of personal storage and sufficiently granular permissions. There's no such concern under the new structure model.


Because you really going to start a long manufacturing / research job in someone station that can be offlined from a moment to another, on top of being easly destructable and almost impossible to defend?

If i've to choose between a station or your EC, I'll pick the station anyday. These changes are to move people from station or pos to EC, but in this state they'll drive people from pos to station again.


Then you should probably choose the structure owned by a group you know can defend it.
If you are otherwise too paranoid to trust other people in even the smallest way. Then use a station.

All structures are going to be better than stations, and are going to come with risks. Either you have to risk having to defend your own structure (god forbid), or you are going to have to trust someone else to be able to defend it.

And if you just can't bring yourself to do either of those things. Use a station and stop bitching, or reconsider why you are paying money to play a game with other people when you refuse to work with any of them.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#170 - 2016-10-10 20:59:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Shae Tadaruwa
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Cyno McLongNeck wrote:

You kinda just proved his point then no? Sarcasm or not.

If you think its too dangerous in highsec, move to lower security areas of space, make some friends and increase your new structures bonuses at the same time. I'm sure you will have many people wanting to be your friend if you can provide them the service of a well fitted and maintained production complex.

It's nothing about 'too dangerous' in high sec.
It's about investing the same isk, in the same structure giving the same reward.
For comparison, imagine if a ship only gave 3% per skill level to damage in high sec, but 5% in null. That is the same as what CCP are doing with these structures.

The differences made sense with POS because a POS could be pulled down in 30 minutes utterly avoiding any wardec risk, they don't make sense with these structures that are locked in space.
All it does is make the point that CCP themselves are breaking their rule of treating all areas of space as important, and are busy turning EVE into a theme park.

In nullsec, it helps offset the costs of transport of materials and products.

Without a greater benefit for null, those costs eat straight into profit and provide a disadvantage against highsec because not all things made stay in null. They are still brought to highsec to access the markets.

It's just levelling the opportunity, not providing an advantage for any of those products that make it to the same market.

For example, take this example trip in order to bring products to highsec for sale:

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/jump/Anshar,555/H-S80W:Perbhe

Return, that's 42,000 isotopes required, 4 cynos and 1000 ozone.

At about 700 ISK per isotope in Amarr, that's 30,000,000 in isotopes + 8-9 million in cynos + the additional time.

That's a significant disadvantage without some offset on cost. That's a fairly common example

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#171 - 2016-10-10 20:59:45 UTC
Justine Musk wrote:
What happen if the person owning the station offline the module or doesn't fuel it? Job cancelled? Job Halted? I'm not concerned about having to interrupt a job due to war, but having the chance that some guy trolls me by offlining the module or decide to unanchor when i've a 2 month me/te research in progress....


Citadels and Engineering Complexes have exactly the same issues as POSes, with the extra caveat that you can't reconfigure them to defend against a wardec (and you certainly can't unanchor them to protect the asset). You have to have a bigger navy to defend an EC than the same size Citadel.
Angela Zelin
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#172 - 2016-10-10 21:02:19 UTC
Althalus Stenory wrote:
Angela Zelin wrote:
Skia Aumer wrote:
Althalus Stenory wrote:
tl;dr; I need tons of isk to run multiple engineering complexes (EC) to have something hardly any better than my current POS

TBH, I'm afraid it'll be exactly opposite.
There will be gazillions of public ECs with the best possible rigs and zero fees.


This guy gets it.

If you are 'too small' or solo to be able to defend your own structure. There are going to be TONS of these that are public use all over the place.

I agree, but if we "need" to always use other players structure, without "diving into it" by ourselves (because it's too expensive, risky, or any other reason), it's as worth as having the same mechanics / bonuses on the current stations.

And the problem is still the same : you need "TONS" of public EC to have what hardly better than we currently have, besides, it's not because you don't pay anything that the "problem" disappear.

Yes using another corps EC might be a solution, but then you have even less control than if you own it for offline, dock restriction, usage restriction, destruction etc. So no, for me it's not a solution when you have valuable stuff. :)

Actually, i don't care about the fact of paying that much for it, but what I don't like is that the cost is far higher, for no real gain but far more risks.


Yeah. and I agree on the main point here. That the new system puts the owner at far more risk than the current one. Encouraging people to work together and use new mechanics is great and all. But if there is a system currently in place that has a set Risk for reward structure. Its replacement shouldnt increase risk (by as much as this would) for the same or marginally better rewards.

That being said, I do like CCPs general direction in the risk V reward they are building in with the different structures, investment needed and sec status of where you put them. They just need to leave the current capabilities that people currently have while still offering the alternatives.

I also realise POSes aren't going anywhere for a good awhile. So people can still keep doing what they are currently doing. I just hope that between now and when POSes are gone, this gets addressed.
Drago Shouna
Doomheim
#173 - 2016-10-10 21:07:58 UTC
Angela Zelin wrote:
Justine Musk wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Justine Musk wrote:


How can a new players enter the industry gameplay when the basic structure with rigs and modules is going to be well over the 1bil cost, onlining the 3 basic module is going to cost probably 5k blocks (around 100+ mils)


For what has to be the umpteenth time, now: By using OTHER PEOPLE'S STRUCTURES.

Please stop with the insipid implication that you can't even enter industrial play without owning your very own EC. It's ignorant at best, and an unabashed lie, at worst.

Using someone else's POS was generally infeasible because of the lack of personal storage and sufficiently granular permissions. There's no such concern under the new structure model.


Because you really going to start a long manufacturing / research job in someone station that can be offlined from a moment to another, on top of being easly destructable and almost impossible to defend?

If i've to choose between a station or your EC, I'll pick the station anyday. These changes are to move people from station or pos to EC, but in this state they'll drive people from pos to station again.


Then you should probably choose the structure owned by a group you know can defend it.
If you are otherwise too paranoid to trust other people in even the smallest way. Then use a station.

All structures are going to be better than stations, and are going to come with risks. Either you have to risk having to defend your own structure (god forbid), or you are going to have to trust someone else to be able to defend it.

And if you just can't bring yourself to do either of those things. Use a station and stop bitching, or reconsider why you are paying money to play a game with other people when you refuse to work with any of them.



Crap troll..

Here's a thing for you..Go invest 4bn in Structure Component bpo's then put them in a public EC to research, last I looked it's over 400 days to me 10. Let me know how it goes.

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.

Justine Musk
Space Exploration Technologies Corporation
#174 - 2016-10-10 21:12:21 UTC
Angela Zelin wrote:
Justine Musk wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Justine Musk wrote:


How can a new players enter the industry gameplay when the basic structure with rigs and modules is going to be well over the 1bil cost, onlining the 3 basic module is going to cost probably 5k blocks (around 100+ mils)


For what has to be the umpteenth time, now: By using OTHER PEOPLE'S STRUCTURES.

Please stop with the insipid implication that you can't even enter industrial play without owning your very own EC. It's ignorant at best, and an unabashed lie, at worst.

Using someone else's POS was generally infeasible because of the lack of personal storage and sufficiently granular permissions. There's no such concern under the new structure model.


Because you really going to start a long manufacturing / research job in someone station that can be offlined from a moment to another, on top of being easly destructable and almost impossible to defend?

If i've to choose between a station or your EC, I'll pick the station anyday. These changes are to move people from station or pos to EC, but in this state they'll drive people from pos to station again.


Then you should probably choose the structure owned by a group you know can defend it.
If you are otherwise too paranoid to trust other people in even the smallest way. Then use a station.

All structures are going to be better than stations, and are going to come with risks. Either you have to risk having to defend your own structure (god forbid), or you are going to have to trust someone else to be able to defend it.

And if you just can't bring yourself to do either of those things. Use a station and stop bitching, or reconsider why you are paying money to play a game with other people when you refuse to work with any of them.


I'm sorry, but in a game that almost give you a medal for awoxing and stealing your friends and corp mate stuff, I'm not going to entrust a random stranger with billions in bpos.

Also like the poster above said... crap trolling mate
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#175 - 2016-10-10 21:14:07 UTC
Disappointed, you just throw the same mechanics working fine for citadels on the industry structures, which do not fit here. You know, the index prevents people from banding together and share resources ...

I'm my own NPC alt.

Angela Zelin
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#176 - 2016-10-10 21:17:38 UTC
Drago Shouna wrote:
Angela Zelin wrote:
Justine Musk wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Justine Musk wrote:


How can a new players enter the industry gameplay when the basic structure with rigs and modules is going to be well over the 1bil cost, onlining the 3 basic module is going to cost probably 5k blocks (around 100+ mils)


For what has to be the umpteenth time, now: By using OTHER PEOPLE'S STRUCTURES.

Please stop with the insipid implication that you can't even enter industrial play without owning your very own EC. It's ignorant at best, and an unabashed lie, at worst.

Using someone else's POS was generally infeasible because of the lack of personal storage and sufficiently granular permissions. There's no such concern under the new structure model.


Because you really going to start a long manufacturing / research job in someone station that can be offlined from a moment to another, on top of being easly destructable and almost impossible to defend?

If i've to choose between a station or your EC, I'll pick the station anyday. These changes are to move people from station or pos to EC, but in this state they'll drive people from pos to station again.


Then you should probably choose the structure owned by a group you know can defend it.
If you are otherwise too paranoid to trust other people in even the smallest way. Then use a station.

All structures are going to be better than stations, and are going to come with risks. Either you have to risk having to defend your own structure (god forbid), or you are going to have to trust someone else to be able to defend it.

And if you just can't bring yourself to do either of those things. Use a station and stop bitching, or reconsider why you are paying money to play a game with other people when you refuse to work with any of them.



Crap troll..

Here's a thing for you..Go invest 4bn in Structure Component bpo's then put them in a public EC to research, last I looked it's over 400 days to me 10. Let me know how it goes.


If you aren't satisfied with the safety of ECs don't use them. I researched all my component BPCs in highsec stations for that very reason. The threshold for what is a large investment is different for many people.

Sticking 4b of BPOs into a POS or EC to research or copy is fine by me. But after a certain amount, putting all my eggs into 1 breakable basket tips the scale too far toward risk vs the possible rewards for keeping so many in there.

There is risk involved in doing things in eve. If you want higher rewards, higher risk comes with that.
And, as Ive said in a reply above this, I do agree that, once they are removed anyway, POSes in highsec are far more secure than ECs due to the interactions of War Vs ECs and Vs POSes, and that there needs to be an appropriate mechanic to replace the current positions POSes have in highsec industry.

You invest time and money into putting the POS up and get better benefits than using an NPC station. The structures will be better than those POSes, and will have higher risks to go along with that. But just taking away the step between Stations and ECs does seem kinda silly.

All that being said. I only agree with that because of feature parity. I don't like the idea of being able to have nearly invincible benefits.
Prometius
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#177 - 2016-10-10 21:18:45 UTC
I noticed these new facilities do not accommodate booster manufacturing? How will reactions work for T3 production?
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#178 - 2016-10-10 21:19:56 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Justine Musk wrote:
Angela Zelin wrote:
Justine Musk wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Justine Musk wrote:


How can a new players enter the industry gameplay when the basic structure with rigs and modules is going to be well over the 1bil cost, onlining the 3 basic module is going to cost probably 5k blocks (around 100+ mils)


For what has to be the umpteenth time, now: By using OTHER PEOPLE'S STRUCTURES.

Please stop with the insipid implication that you can't even enter industrial play without owning your very own EC. It's ignorant at best, and an unabashed lie, at worst.

Using someone else's POS was generally infeasible because of the lack of personal storage and sufficiently granular permissions. There's no such concern under the new structure model.


Because you really going to start a long manufacturing / research job in someone station that can be offlined from a moment to another, on top of being easly destructable and almost impossible to defend?

If i've to choose between a station or your EC, I'll pick the station anyday. These changes are to move people from station or pos to EC, but in this state they'll drive people from pos to station again.


Then you should probably choose the structure owned by a group you know can defend it.
If you are otherwise too paranoid to trust other people in even the smallest way. Then use a station.

All structures are going to be better than stations, and are going to come with risks. Either you have to risk having to defend your own structure (god forbid), or you are going to have to trust someone else to be able to defend it.

And if you just can't bring yourself to do either of those things. Use a station and stop bitching, or reconsider why you are paying money to play a game with other people when you refuse to work with any of them.


I'm sorry, but in a game that almost give you a medal for awoxing and stealing your friends and corp mate stuff, I'm not going to entrust a random stranger with billions in bpos.

Also like the poster above said... crap trolling mate



How are you "entrusting" them with your BPOs? They literally CANNOT steal them under the new structure model, which is what makes public structures feasible in the first place. You can't even lose them if the structure is destroyed (WH space aside).

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Chani El'zrya
Beyond Frontier
Pandemic Horde
#179 - 2016-10-10 21:24:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Chani El'zrya
T3 manufacturing is also a big concern for me since it becomes either ECs or nothing.
I would be fine with manufacturing T3 in stations although the taxes are higher.
Milla Goodpussy
Garoun Investment Bank
#180 - 2016-10-10 21:27:26 UTC


How are you "entrusting" them with your BPOs? They literally CANNOT steal them under the new structure model, which is what makes public structures feasible in the first place. You can't even lose them if the structure is destroyed (WH space aside).[/quote]


they didn't even mention the tax or timeframe it would take for a bpo to transfer to the next citadel.. which can easily be taken as they're avoiding really pissing off the fanbase cause asset safety mechanic is scewed up already.