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Dev blog: Building Dreams: Introducing Engineering Complexes

First post First post First post
Author
Angela Zelin
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#141 - 2016-10-10 20:03:50 UTC
Drago Shouna wrote:
I love the industry and manufacturing side of my game.

I love mining mats and then making Ships, Ammo, Crystals etc to sell.

I'm hating the fact that I'm struggling to find at least one positive in this release.

They fully expect us to risk a whole manufacturing run if and when it gets hit?

They expect us to risk losing a long final me run when it gets hit?

No thanks...I'd rather stop that side of things and just rat or mine to sell, being forced down that road ain't my idea of fun.....


Stations aren't going away you know? I'm pretty deep into nullsec production, and my pansy ass still has all of my BPOs researching safe and sound in highsec.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#142 - 2016-10-10 20:05:08 UTC
Cyno McLongNeck wrote:

You kinda just proved his point then no? Sarcasm or not.

If you think its too dangerous in highsec, move to lower security areas of space, make some friends and increase your new structures bonuses at the same time. I'm sure you will have many people wanting to be your friend if you can provide them the service of a well fitted and maintained production complex.

It's nothing about 'too dangerous' in high sec.
It's about investing the same isk, in the same structure giving the same reward.
For comparison, imagine if a ship only gave 3% per skill level to damage in high sec, but 5% in null. That is the same as what CCP are doing with these structures.

The differences made sense with POS because a POS could be pulled down in 30 minutes utterly avoiding any wardec risk, they don't make sense with these structures that are locked in space.
All it does is make the point that CCP themselves are breaking their rule of treating all areas of space as important, and are busy turning EVE into a theme park.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#143 - 2016-10-10 20:06:49 UTC
Althalus Stenory wrote:
Instead of giving a 25% boost to rigs, it'll be better to have a base bonus to every industry jobs, so at least, any industrial job have a real interest to be done on EC even without rigs instead of citadel without rigs...

I like this better
Elenahina
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#144 - 2016-10-10 20:07:36 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
I'm so excited! And I just can't hide it!

Edit - looking at the anchoring restrictions. Why not make it so you can anchor an Engineering Complex near your Citadel? Maybe 200km away? As far as I am concerned, the defenses on the Engineering Complex are kind of pointless and might as well not exist.. I would, however, love to see little space cities with Engineering Complexes artfully arranged around a Citadel. The Citadel can primarily function as the defense hub for the Engineering Complexes. Obviously, you still need a proper fleet for any kind of determined enemy, but it would look nice.


Actually this is kind of what I was hoping for, but otherwise, I really like the looks of these.

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno

Black Pedro
Mine.
#145 - 2016-10-10 20:08:51 UTC
Justine Musk wrote:
Skia Aumer wrote:
Chani El'zrya wrote:
As a solo and casual industrialist in high sec, i conclude that i'm pushed back to NPC station.
With my current POS set-up i was able to unanchor everything before a wardec kicks in.

Nevyn Auscent wrote:
these structures sit in space at risk, can't be pulled down to avoid a wardec like a POS could

Hisec too dangerous. Consider moving to safer areas of space.


You are actually making sarcasm, but nullsec is overall safer than some high density zones of high sec.

Yes, big fights happen daily in null, but high sec is continous grind

Not when it comes to Citadels. Only about 10% of the total Astrahus kills were in highsec last month.

No one wants to spend hours and 100M ISK to shoot a structure that drops little more than that in resources. Industrial arrays take 33% less time to kill, and may actually drop something more (although the warning of a war in highsec will probably results in most lines being cancelled), but somehow I don't think they are going to be that desirable a target either.

Maybe industrialists will start fighting each other over systems for indices and proximity to trade hubs (one can only hope), but given how much unused space there is probably not.

As for the devblog, seems in line with expectations. Glad to see the progress being made on implementing the structures and that you are one step closer to removing POSes.
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#146 - 2016-10-10 20:12:32 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Rowells wrote:
Also, one other thing: there are absolutely WAY too many medium rigs. 16 different application categories, times 2 for ME/TE versions = 32 different rigs. This is absolutely more than current POS setups, including faction/specialized versions. It would be so bad if the rig slots weren't so limited, but with only three slots? You're going to find the TE bonuses rigs falling to the wayside. Not to mention an excessive amount of complexity for very little in terms of reward or gameplay.

What is the reason for splitting these up like this?


I have mixed feelings about that. I mean yeah, I looked at that and compared it to my current operation and my kneejerk reaction was, "Well, that's pretty ******* inconvenient." Buuuuuut....

I'm wondering if it will increase the viability of certain intermediate markets. For instance, if I want to produce T2 right now, it usually makes sense to build my own components. Given the low SP entry barrier, the only thing it "costs" me is the contribution to the system index and the opportunity cost of whatever else that character could be building (which is hard to quantify but, again, due to the low SP costs for production in general, basically amounts to ****-all in practice - if I need more slots, I'll make more slots). The market volume of T2 components is a sliver of their consumption rate.

In a medium EC, though, building T2 components at a comparable speed and efficiency would cost two rig slots. It won't be overnight, given the continued existence of POS, but in the long term, this model does require more specificity on a per-structure basis, and that could be a good thing over all, especially for some of the more overproduced market segments.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Angela Zelin
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#147 - 2016-10-10 20:13:30 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:


It's nothing about 'too dangerous' in high sec.
It's about investing the same isk, in the same structure giving the same reward.
For comparison, imagine if a ship only gave 3% per skill level to damage in high sec, but 5% in null. That is the same as what CCP are doing with these structures.



Problem with your analogy is that the current system already gives better bonuses to lowsec and nullsec than you get in highsec.

Nevyn Auscent wrote:

The differences made sense with POS because a POS could be pulled down in 30 minutes utterly avoiding any wardec risk, they don't make sense with these structures that are locked in space.


I do, however, agree with this. These structures are not at parity to old features if they have more restrictive use rules.

Nevyn Auscent wrote:

All it does is make the point that CCP themselves are breaking their rule of treating all areas of space as important, and are busy turning EVE into a theme park.


However you want to interpret 'Important' aside. They have never treated all areas of space the same. There is more risk involved and more reward to seek the further from highsec you go. Despite CCP making these new structures harder to defend in highsec, they are still safer in highsec than they would be in other areas of space.
Drago Shouna
Doomheim
#148 - 2016-10-10 20:16:13 UTC
Angela Zelin wrote:
Drago Shouna wrote:
I love the industry and manufacturing side of my game.

I love mining mats and then making Ships, Ammo, Crystals etc to sell.

I'm hating the fact that I'm struggling to find at least one positive in this release.

They fully expect us to risk a whole manufacturing run if and when it gets hit?

They expect us to risk losing a long final me run when it gets hit?

No thanks...I'd rather stop that side of things and just rat or mine to sell, being forced down that road ain't my idea of fun.....


Stations aren't going away you know? I'm pretty deep into nullsec production, and my pansy ass still has all of my BPOs researching safe and sound in highsec.



I know stations aren't going anywhere soon (this side of Xmas anyway)

I'm in null myself...but I was just expecting more, I should have known better after the citadel release.

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.

E6o5
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#149 - 2016-10-10 20:17:53 UTC
Why do BPOs stored/used in the structure do not drop if the structure is destroyed? With Towers right now they have a Chance to drop. With the new structures there is so little risk for the owner ...
Althalus Stenory
Flying Blacksmiths
#150 - 2016-10-10 20:21:37 UTC
E6o5 wrote:
Why do BPOs stored/used in the structure do not drop if the structure is destroyed? With Towers right now they have a Chance to drop. With the new structures there is so little risk for the owner ...

Even less players will use the new structures if they do this Lol

EsiPy - Python 2.7 / 3.3+ Swagger Client based on pyswagger for ESI

Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#151 - 2016-10-10 20:24:34 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
It's nothing about 'too dangerous' in high sec.
It's about investing the same isk, in the same structure giving the same reward.
For comparison, imagine if a ship only gave 3% per skill level to damage in high sec, but 5% in null. That is the same as what CCP are doing with these structures.

The differences made sense with POS because a POS could be pulled down in 30 minutes utterly avoiding any wardec risk, they don't make sense with these structures that are locked in space.
All it does is make the point that CCP themselves are breaking their rule of treating all areas of space as important, and are busy turning EVE into a theme park.

Can you decide if the risk is involved in your equation or not?
And if yes, is risk in nullsec greater than one in hisec?

As for the investments, that should yield the same reward, as you say it. Does your pimped marauder provide the same isk per hour running level 4's as the same marauder in nullsec haven? Why dont you cry about that?
And what about operational costs? Did you compare them? How much does logistics cost for nullsec? Red and Black Frogs - they have different pricing, go figure.
Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#152 - 2016-10-10 20:25:07 UTC
RainReaper wrote:

i HOPE you guys realise that like citadels you have to first grind trough 4,8m shields, WAIT A DAY like with a citadel then go trough armor and lastly wait a week before you can take down its structure...right?

I'm looking at this from a industry+wormhole perspective, but the issue applies to anywhere in space but highsec. The Mediums aren't defensible enough to survive anyone who wants to hit it. Once a group sets their eye on it, it takes relatively little commitment from them to kill it. A small defender is going to either have to accept the loss of the structure, or start paying out significantly more than the structure is worth in order to higher mercenaries (who may still not be able to prevent the next timer due to how little effort it's going to take to rip through its defenses).

Get 5 Oracles and 5 Logi and laugh at any attempt to stop it that isn't an overload of ECM.
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#153 - 2016-10-10 20:27:12 UTC
Althalus Stenory wrote:
tl;dr; I need tons of isk to run multiple engineering complexes (EC) to have something hardly any better than my current POS

TBH, I'm afraid it'll be exactly opposite.
There will be gazillions of public ECs with the best possible rigs and zero fees.
Cyno McLongNeck
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#154 - 2016-10-10 20:30:03 UTC
Winter Archipelago wrote:
RainReaper wrote:

i HOPE you guys realise that like citadels you have to first grind trough 4,8m shields, WAIT A DAY like with a citadel then go trough armor and lastly wait a week before you can take down its structure...right?

I'm looking at this from a industry+wormhole perspective, but the issue applies to anywhere in space but highsec. The Mediums aren't defensible enough to survive anyone who wants to hit it. Once a group sets their eye on it, it takes relatively little commitment from them to kill it. A small defender is going to either have to accept the loss of the structure, or start paying out significantly more than the structure is worth in order to higher mercenaries (who may still not be able to prevent the next timer due to how little effort it's going to take to rip through its defenses).

Get 5 Oracles and 5 Logi and laugh at any attempt to stop it that isn't an overload of ECM.


Have you seen the huge fights that come out over astrahuses? You call the enemy of the people attacking your citadel and offer them fire support from the structure itself, you'll have some new friends.

700m is cheap as hell too. I'll likely be throwing them around to bait fights for my alliance.
ripper1 Tivianne
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#155 - 2016-10-10 20:33:33 UTC
Drago Shouna wrote:
I love the industry and manufacturing side of my game.

I love mining mats and then making Ships, Ammo, Crystals etc to sell.

I'm hating the fact that I'm struggling to find at least one positive in this release.

They fully expect us to risk a whole manufacturing run if and when it gets hit?

They expect us to risk losing a long final me run when it gets hit?

No thanks...I'd rather stop that side of things and just rat or mine to sell, being forced down that road ain't my idea of fun.....



I feel the same way Ugh
Justine Musk
Space Exploration Technologies Corporation
#156 - 2016-10-10 20:33:36 UTC
Also I was reading the fuel cost of the new modules.... 20 fuel / hour to research and copy, 20 to invent and 30 to manufacture something.... 70 fuel per hour to do what amedium tower does with 20. And for a fast reference the cheapest block (helium) cost 20k per block, making it 1.4mil per hour.

This count also ignore the onlining cost of these modules, at example on live a reprocessing module cost 5 blocks per hour but 320 to online and a market module the cost 40 block per hour need 2880 to online

How can a new players enter the industry gameplay when the basic structure with rigs and modules is going to be well over the 1bil cost, onlining the 3 basic module is going to cost probably 5k blocks (around 100+ mils) and at this point the new guy need to figure out what to do in the industry... while now to check how industry work in pos he can simply anchor a small pos, and with 10 fuel hour, no onlining cost, 30 minute anchoring and a cost under the 400mil he can check if he likes the doing industry or not.

I would be very discouraged by the upcoming system.

And please before saying "lol, go join a true man corp in null/low/wh" remember that everybody joined some high sec corp that hooked him / her to the game, and pushed him to move on other kind of spaces.

In my opinion to be a bit more "newbro" friendly remove the onlining cost (or reduce it by a great deal) from the industry modules.
Angela Zelin
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#157 - 2016-10-10 20:36:00 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
Althalus Stenory wrote:
tl;dr; I need tons of isk to run multiple engineering complexes (EC) to have something hardly any better than my current POS

TBH, I'm afraid it'll be exactly opposite.
There will be gazillions of public ECs with the best possible rigs and zero fees.


This guy gets it.

If you are 'too small' or solo to be able to defend your own structure. There are going to be TONS of these that are public use all over the place.
Drago Shouna
Doomheim
#158 - 2016-10-10 20:37:37 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
Althalus Stenory wrote:
tl;dr; I need tons of isk to run multiple engineering complexes (EC) to have something hardly any better than my current POS

TBH, I'm afraid it'll be exactly opposite.
There will be gazillions of public ECs with the best possible rigs and zero fees.



Feel free to risk 10 manufacturing runs or 10 me runs and risk losing the lot if you want, I'll pass on that. Regardless of asset safety I'd rather not risk losing months of research just to have to start over...

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#159 - 2016-10-10 20:39:35 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:


As for the investments, that should yield the same reward, as you say it. Does your pimped marauder provide the same isk per hour running level 4's as the same marauder in nullsec haven? Why dont you cry about that?
And what about operational costs? Did you compare them? How much does logistics cost for nullsec? Red and Black Frogs - they have different pricing, go figure.

Your Marauder does the same damage in both situations, with the same tank.
Same Isk, same reward.
What use you then put that reward to might be different, but you used a flawed analogy.
As for operational costs, most people don't red & black frog. And they are a neutral entity who has to run the risk of being shot by blues of the people ordering the shipping and can't use the jump bridges the alliance has in place. Again, flawed analogy.

It's very simple, the structures should give the same for all areas of space. It's the same isk sitting in space waiting to be attacked. And while you might need a wardec in highsec, you also have significantly inferior defences on your structures since you don't get any AOE weapons or doomsdays etc.

Pretending otherwise is just asking for CCP to make a single area of the game superior to all other areas, which is the long term path to a dead EVE, because it creates a themepark like 'End game' for EVE, and sidelines everyone who doesn't go into the end game.
Planeteer Uno
Altcorp No2754
#160 - 2016-10-10 20:40:25 UTC
I haven't read anything about Datacore generation which was mentioned as a possible service module for research laboratories. As the ECs are getting a Bonus to research are research labs still coming as a seperate structure or have they been incorporated into ECs now. If so, will the current system with research agents stay or is there still a plan to substitute the current system in the near future?