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[November] Rorqual Changes

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FearlessLittleToaster
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#181 - 2016-10-05 15:15:27 UTC
I have to say I'm cautiously enthusiastic about these changes, which I did not expect. Instead of making the Rorqual a hilarious pinata that you have to fix in a belt this is likely to be more case of "Pinata hits you until candy comes out" for gangs not expecting to take one on. As well the yield looks like it will be meaningfully scaled to the price of the hull. Again, bravo.

So, broad feedback aside, here are some specifics:

- Please make the big mining drones faster. Otherwise their real and theoretical yields will be absurdly far apart. And parking caps next to a rock is stupidly tedious; if this thing is supposed to be less of a mining beast than it's stats read like just nerf the stats rather than getting there through a non-intuitive mechanic on a secondary system.

- I'm guessing they won't but I'd like to confirm: Non-damage offensive modules will not work while the PANIC is active correct? By this I mean Srcams/Neuts/Etc. Hilarious abuse potential otherwise.

- Bringing back mining signatures that require probing (in addition to mining anomalies, no need to remove those) would make for much more interesting hunting. People would feel safer and therefore be more sloppy.

- Please keep the drone bay at 6000m. Even if 5/6 of it ends up being full of mining drones the rest of that space is key to the ship being viable against small gangs. One of the biggest reason my Rorq never leaves a POS is that, while I can combat fit the thing and have it tank like a pro, it has so little drone space that a capable five man roam can render it harmless in a couple minutes. Then it's pinata o'clock and that's never fun.

- the PANIC button is great for discouraging cap drops, which is really nice.

- Jump range increase is amazing, thank you.

- I like the fact that the mining potential on this thing is not linked to fitting; it can roll full combat fit and still pull in some serious ore. That being said, a drone mining augmentation module would provide more interesting gameplay choices if you wanted to add one. Remember the poor Vexor and its red-headed stepchild of a mining drone bonus!

- Will the drones drop ore into the ore bay or cargo? I ask because that's the kind of bug that gets overlooked sometimes and it should be the ore bay...

- Will it be possible to refit a new PANIC button off another Rorqual or a depot and use it immediately after you burn out the first? I would suggest some kind of cooldown or another constraint on this, otherwise I can just park two Rorqs next to each other, type iddqd in local, and stop giving a **** about anything...

- A thought on the panic button and the overall combat capacity of these things. They are pretty close to old standard drone carriers in terms of their damage output, and the PANIC button plus the FAX tank and strong remote reps would make them very difficult to stop if enough of them got together. I think there is a real danger of a "Rorquing Ball" capfleet becoming the new dominant meta. I think the best way to fix this would be to stop a ship with a weapons timer from activating the button. That would give the attackers a minute to kill one which was participating in combat.



Myrriam
Elusive Hamsters
#182 - 2016-10-05 15:26:23 UTC
Somebody already tried to figure amount of tank which will have 20 Rorqs in remrep setup? And I personally know ppl who will have 20 rorqs deployed right after this changes goes live.
Artcanin
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#183 - 2016-10-05 15:26:47 UTC
Tiberizzle wrote:
Everyone seems to be getting really excited about the theoretical yield of the rorqual but they're completely forgetting how bad drone mining mechanics are.

#1. There isn't even a hot key to make the mine, you have to use the context menu.

#2. The drone goes out, mines exactly 1 cycle and then returns with its mining amount.

The excavator drones exist on tranquility right now and they MWD at 100m/s. That's like a 10+ minute round trip to some of the ore site asteroids even with drone navigation comps and skills. The base speed needs to be an order of magnitude higher, or these things will spend over 90% of their time in transit and a sieged rorqual will be considerably worse than a barely trained barge in reality. The other option is that the Rorqual, a capital ship with **** for agility and warp speed that must additionally exit siege, rewarps for basically every individual asteroid it mines, and spends 90%+ of its time in warp... and is considerably worse than a barely trained barge in reality. Even if the drones are much quicker than the preliminary stats imply they will be, that theoretical yield will translate into a real yield of 25-50%, if that, and they'll be barely worth using as an upgrade over a Hulk.

With a theoretical yield of 18400m^3/minute and the speed as they exist on tranquility currently, for an asteroid 40,000m away (i.e. roughly the range something like half of the rocks in a colossal are from the warpin), it will take the drone 800 seconds (13.3 minutes) to travel for every 60 seconds of mining, meaning its real yield is 6.976% of the theoretical 18400 or 1283m^3 per minute. With drone navigation 5 and the MWD bonus from siege it will be 162.5m/s or 492s (8.2 minutes) of travel for 60 seconds of mining, or 10.8% efficiency / 1999m^3 per minute. That's like 20m isk/hr on spod, lol.

Put another way, a rookie ship with Miner II's jetcan mining (187m^3/min) would give an unsieged Rorqual (8.5% efficiency at 40km with 125m/s speed, of 3000m^3/min =257m^3/min) a good contest for most of an ore site after you factor in travel time if the base speed on tranquility is currently representative of final stats.



This needs to be addressed.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#184 - 2016-10-05 15:26:53 UTC
Tiberizzle wrote:
#2. The drone goes out, mines exactly 1 cycle and then returns with its mining amount.

Assuming it works like normal drones, there is a "mine repeatedly" option.
Lady Ayeipsia
BlueWaffe
#185 - 2016-10-05 15:35:43 UTC
For the PANIC... How will the speed decrease and increase be handled? In other words if a fleet is waiting for it's target to lose invulnerability, if they time it correctly will the fleet be able to hit a ship at a reduced velocity as it speeds back to max or will speed be at max when the invulnerability drops?
Zhul Chembull
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#186 - 2016-10-05 15:42:42 UTC
Soleil Fournier wrote:
Rorq is only 3 billion, that's cheap, insurance mitigates a bunch of that.

Players out in the far reaches of nullsec will have whole fleets of these suckers. The supply of minerals will be obscene, leading to an inevitable crash of mineral prices and a whole lot of supercaps being built.

Think they've overdone the yields on these.


Wrong wrong and wrong. Drama drama drama. It will be ganked over and over till people realize two things:

A: It is a kick ass **** kill
B: Keep it out of siege mode


Believe me, there are going to be some nice exciting fights. After the first person that loses 15 in a belt to a well coordinated fleet rage posts, people will get the point. These changes are awsome. Great job CCP, I have not been a fan of your changes hardly ever, but some great risk vs reward here.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#187 - 2016-10-05 15:44:29 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Tiberizzle wrote:
#2. The drone goes out, mines exactly 1 cycle and then returns with its mining amount.

Assuming it works like normal drones, there is a "mine repeatedly" option.


This is meant to illustrate that there is travel time between each cycle of the mining drone, even if it automatically returns to mine a new cycle.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Zhul Chembull
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#188 - 2016-10-05 15:48:11 UTC
Vald Tegor wrote:
Gustav Mannfred wrote:
18000m3 per minute is more than 10 times more than an exumer(hulk has about 1600m3 per minute)..

Your math is VERY wrong. My hulk mines significantly more than that per laser. In reality, it will be a little more than 4 hulks. If that.

Gustav Mannfred wrote:
Is there any reason to bring some mining berges?

Yes. To mine out the mercoxit. Or because you don't feel comfortable putting 15+ Billion isk on grid at the moment.


Gustav Mannfred wrote:
2. With 10ly jumprange and its insane drone dps bonus this ship becomes the #1 choise for hotdroping and pvp. It is also like the old carriers, with its 15 effective heavy drones it has the same amount as carriers were able to launch before citadel. This also makes it again possibile to run havens and sanctums afk and get about 40 mil per tick or so.

No, for the same reason you don't rat in a dreadnaught. You finish the site in 10 minutes then spend 5 waiting for the siege cycle to end so you can move to the next one. By the time you warp and land you're making Ishtar level ticks. Likewise if you're going to drop in and siege with a glass cannon fit, why would you not drop a suicide dreadnaught that does 5x the dps of the Rorq for the same cost?

[quote=Gustav Mannfred]3. With its bonuses to RR, this ship is just like a FAX with a lot more DPS. The Industrial core boosts remote reps AND DPS. FAX triage module set drone dps to 0 when activated.

A Rorqual with T2 Capital remote booster repairs 1150 HP per cycle
A Minokawa with same repairs for 7906 HP per cycle




Your on point here. I will most likely use a orca + skiff setup. You never put out too much shiny or be prepared for a large drop of dreads. I do like the rorqual changes a lot, but no way in hell you will catch me putting one in a belt, definately back to being the poor man JF though =) Great changes ccp
Zhul Chembull
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#189 - 2016-10-05 15:51:44 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Thanks for the feedback so far everyone.

A couple quick answers to questions we see coming up multiple times:

  • We're not planning on changing the restrictions on what ships are allowed into the Rorq SMB at this time. The concern with removing the restrictions is that it would become too powerful combined with the increased jump range.
  • The mining foreman ships won't have any ability to mine gas or mercoxit at this time. You'll want to use other ships for mining those substances.



Fozzie these are all great changes, they really are. I have heard a lot of how strong defensively they will be. But as we all know, players are crafty and they will be sunk like any other ship, albeit a lot more fun to take down now. I mine for my living and pretty much have been in industry since 03. My bank account is moderate size, but I can not wait to get in on some fleets where someone decided to put 15 on the field. Be one hell of a battle. Great changes man they really are. Thanks for increasing that jump range, I always used my rorqual as a poor mans JF and it is good for corps just getting into null. Just great changes all around. Lot of new content for both the pvp crowed and the care bears. Lots of fun in the future.
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#190 - 2016-10-05 16:08:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Skia Aumer
FearlessLittleToaster wrote:
- Please make the big mining drones faster. Otherwise their real and theoretical yields will be absurdly far apart. And parking caps next to a rock is stupidly tedious; if this thing is supposed to be less of a mining beast than it's stats read like just nerf the stats rather than getting there through a non-intuitive mechanic on a secondary system.

...

- I like the fact that the mining potential on this thing is not linked to fitting; it can roll full combat fit and still pull in some serious ore.

I think I got it. Excavator drones are slow on purpose.
You will want to fit those navigation comps, 3x nonofibers and a capital-sized MWD in order to get a good mining yield. Furthermore, maneuvering between roids will take a lot of attention span, and this makes multiboxing really difficult. Bravo! Good job, CCP!

Now we only need to make sure its combat capabilities are balanced. Rorquing ball may be a thing. And definitely all offensive modules (including neuts and EWAR) should not be functioning while in PANIC.
Damjan Fox
Fox Industries and Exploration
#191 - 2016-10-05 16:13:37 UTC
Just a thought...

If i park an industrial ship with a fleet hangar (full of PANIC modules) next to my Rorqual, could i just swap the burned PANIC module for a new one? If the Panic module doesn't give me a weapons timer, which prevents refitting, could i just swap modules as long as i have new ones in my industrial?

Proposal: >>> New Inventory / Item Hangar <<<
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#192 - 2016-10-05 16:57:58 UTC
Querns wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Tiberizzle wrote:
#2. The drone goes out, mines exactly 1 cycle and then returns with its mining amount.

Assuming it works like normal drones, there is a "mine repeatedly" option.


This is meant to illustrate that there is travel time between each cycle of the mining drone, even if it automatically returns to mine a new cycle.

Ah ok
Gevlin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#193 - 2016-10-05 16:58:36 UTC
in the PANIC Mode

I am concerned about the use of Capital repers being used when Panic Mode is on, Its repair ability repair other combat ships while in Industrial and Panic mode, making it an unkillable Force Aux target for upto 7.5 mins

Could this repairing be only limited to those sharing the same Panic effect as the Rorqual, since it only will be working on ships producing no FPS, Even giving the inability to use remote reps while in panic mode might work.

What about the Panic mode effecting Electronic warfare - for 7.5 mins you have indestructable industrials that can tackle and jam for upto 7.5 mins, being immune even to doomdays

Mining fleet = best Tackle -> should not be the case.

To keep the Panic in line with it's intentions of being a Sit and wait for help tool

Prevent Rorqual providing Remote reps,
--> it has a passive regen x10 ability plus a 99.99% immunity. I would take a capital feel to take out a Covetor. remote reps beyond drones would be overkill.

Prevent the use of Electronic fair modules

Someday I will have the time to play. For now it is mining afk in High sec. In Cheap ships
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#194 - 2016-10-05 17:04:21 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
Now we only need to make sure its combat capabilities are balanced. Rorquing ball may be a thing. And definitely all offensive modules (including neuts and EWAR) should not be functioning while in PANIC.

I'd suggest simply stop cycling of all modules. And disconnect all drones. Otherwise, it will be rather difficult to keep track on all those exploits we can possibly come with.
Frauleinwunder
New Edens Moon Preservation Society
Goonswarm Federation
#195 - 2016-10-05 17:07:08 UTC
Also another question as to the yields stated before, does that include the effecs of Drone damage amps?
FearlessLittleToaster
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#196 - 2016-10-05 17:30:32 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:

I think I got it. Excavator drones are slow on purpose.
You will want to fit those navigation comps, 3x nonofibers and a capital-sized MWD in order to get a good mining yield. Furthermore, maneuvering between roids will take a lot of attention span, and this makes multiboxing really difficult. Bravo! Good job, CCP!

Now we only need to make sure its combat capabilities are balanced. Rorquing ball may be a thing. And definitely all offensive modules (including neuts and EWAR) should not be functioning while in PANIC.


The problem with that is how hard it hits anyone trying to mine anywhere other than an upgraded nullsec anom. The anoms have a few huge rocks that miners can park next to, which would mean fitting an MWD to relocate every few cycles. A belt or one of the randomly spawned mining sites, on the other hand, features tons of little rocks spread out over a very large area. That isn't to say the amount of ore available in belts is small, quite the contrary, but using the current numbers for these drones a mining barge would probably perform better.

There wouldn't be much manual piloting could do to fix this, the asteroids are spread tens to hundreds of KM apart and most wouldn't last a single core cycle. Warping in and out would take minutes for each rock. Same with drone speed augmenters, even fit for max drone speed travel would take more time than mining for all but the closest asteroids. So if the design goal is to soft-restrict Rorq mining to upgraded systems where mining anoms spawn then the mining drone speeds make sense. If not then it needs changed. I can think of a couple use cases where this restriction would cripple emergent gameplay:

- It would force anyone using a Rorq to mine in a couple utterly predictable locations, instead of giving the choice between highest yield in a the obvious location of an anom or lower output hiding in one of thirty belts (Output/time would probably be around a T1 mining barge with drone speed as low as it is).

- It would prevent an organized corp from dropping Rorqs on a system to blitz-mine the industrial index up as a defensive tactic, which would otherwise be a really cool application for the upgraded hull. Without the upgrade spawned anoms a fleet of Procurers would be better, a rather sad state for the end-all of mining hulls.

- Since anyone who wants boosts while belt mining (say for Mercoxit, which will still need barges) will likely need a Rorq in the belt anyhow. This would be frustrating for the Rorq pilot to say the least, they would get all the risk but none of the benefit of flying the hull.

Also just consider how much of a hit to output this would really be. Lets assume that these drones have a 60 second mining cycle and I fit my Rorqual so their speed is boosted to 200m/s. I fit an MWD and so nanofibers too, and 1000m from my mining target. Though it might seem like my drones are going to be making a 10 second round trip, meaning that they will lose 1/7 of their total time mining to travel, the reality is a lot worse. When drones mine a rock they orbit it, and some rocks can be several KM long. If a drone finishes it's cycle on the far side of a larger asteroid it would add massive delay to each run, and not even parking on the rock at zero would prevent that.

Then we get into the travel time issue on the hull, namely that with slow drones and the core shut down to relocate a Rorq will be probably mine less than an Exhumer. So if the design forces constant relocation there will be a massive hit to output for even the best flown ships; even the most efficient piloting won't make drones harvest more while the Rorq is in transit.

I would rather have fast drones and lower base output than outstanding paper output which cannot be achieved.
Monee Sasen
Doomheim
#197 - 2016-10-05 17:41:17 UTC
Why is there always an assumption that that panic button is there to allow time for defenders to come and help. What if you operate in a small corp in null and there is no-one to help?

Is the answer that we will be penalised because the only solution will be not to operate the industrial core which effectively makes the compression null n void which was the main trait of a Rorqual.

or

Are you just making players move into larger corps/alliances to try and benefit from having a defenders there by eliminating the small people.

All in all i think the nessesary use of the Panic button and being stuck ( because it will happen and you will need it ) will just deter the single solo players like me from the game.


Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#198 - 2016-10-05 17:53:27 UTC
Monee Sasen wrote:
Why is there always an assumption that that panic button is there to allow time for defenders to come and help. What if you operate in a small corp in null and there is no-one to help?

Is the answer that we will be penalised because the only solution will be not to operate the industrial core which effectively makes the compression null n void which was the main trait of a Rorqual.

or

Are you just making players move into larger corps/alliances to try and benefit from having a defenders there by eliminating the small people.

All in all i think the nessesary use of the Panic button and being stuck ( because it will happen and you will need it ) will just deter the single solo players like me from the game.



Do they not have Astrahus or pos-mounted Compression Arrays where you live?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Monee Sasen
Doomheim
#199 - 2016-10-05 18:06:20 UTC
Querns wrote:
Monee Sasen wrote:
Why is there always an assumption that that panic button is there to allow time for defenders to come and help. What if you operate in a small corp in null and there is no-one to help?

Is the answer that we will be penalised because the only solution will be not to operate the industrial core which effectively makes the compression null n void which was the main trait of a Rorqual.

or

Are you just making players move into larger corps/alliances to try and benefit from having a defenders there by eliminating the small people.

All in all i think the nessesary use of the Panic button and being stuck ( because it will happen and you will need it ) will just deter the single solo players like me from the game.



Do they not have Astrahus or pos-mounted Compression Arrays where you live?



ok i use the compression mode as a bad example - activating the industrial core then to get full bonus
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#200 - 2016-10-05 18:13:46 UTC
FearlessLittleToaster wrote:
I would rather have fast drones and lower base output than outstanding paper output which cannot be achieved.

Me, on contrast, prefer Rorqual to be a wunderwaffe on paper and every miner's pipe dream. But if said miners get into those vessels, I dont want them to crash the market. It is very good if Rorq requires expert manual piloting. Give them miners something to do, and solve the multiboxing problem. Sounds great.