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Another permajammed thread.

Author
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2016-10-10 09:02:55 UTC
Mephiztopheleze wrote:
If you can get your drones to aggro the ECM boat, they'll continue to damage it if you get jammed.

The problem here is that frigates in general have higher lock speed too. And to order drones to do anything you would need to lock the target first.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"

Robot Robot
What.
#22 - 2016-10-11 00:54:43 UTC
Substantia Nigra wrote:
Robot Robot wrote:
I'd like to see a turret equivalent to FOF missiles. If we get that, then I will have zero problem with ECM. As it stands, I have very little problem.


I am at a loss to understand the benefits of having ECM that is 'no problem'. The whole reason you use ECM is to create a problem, for the other guy.


Sorry, I didn't mean that ECM never causes me a problem in combat. It does! But I think it's generally in a good place balance-wise. My one complaint is that it literally turns off turrets, and that's not very fun. I just wish that turret-users had a "fire blindly in the dark while jammed" option, like missiles and drones do. Frankly, I'd be fine with that option being almost completely ineffective. So long as I can spew ammo and say "I may not be able to target you, but I can still hope you fly into my bullets."

But, yeah, from a balance perspective I think ECM is fine.
Old Pervert
Perkone
Caldari State
#23 - 2016-10-11 22:20:31 UTC
Sigh lol.

You complain about getting jammed out. Would you rather RSD? Your guns would still work, but they're not gonna be inside your targeting range, so... same effect, you die. Well, not quite the same, because then you make a thread complaining about RSD instead of ECM.

How about TD/GD? A pilgrim with 2 TDs can reduce a Ferox with Spike down to a whopping 15km range (according to pyfa, I'm not logged in atm). Your guns still work, but they're not gonna be in range so... same effect. Would you be complaining here that your turrets couldn't hit anything and you couldnt' fight back?

Your ship has weaknesses, just like theirs. Take a look at ECM. It is RNG-based. If that jam doesn't land, odds are they're gonna get blapped. How would you like it if your active tank only worked 50% of the time with a 20 second cycle time?

EWAR is a means of killing other ships. It has strengths and drawbacks. Almost guaranteed the EWAR ship you face will be sacrificing tank or dps (or both if you're a falcon) for said EWAR.
Nikea Tiber
Backwater Enterprises RD
#24 - 2016-10-15 02:54:11 UTC
Oh look. Another ECM thread.
It works as intended. It is RNG based target nullification. Small gang vs small gang, it is a powerful force multiplier. Personally, i think it is pretty balanced; it can be annoying, sure, but there are options available to counter ecm. FoF missiles, and I believe drones set to aggressive will target and engage the closest hostile to you (so heavy missiles and HAMs can/will explode harmlessly on that warrior II that is orbiting you), so get close to the offending ecm boat if you have got drones or FoF.
The opposition filled out a seat just to nullify 1-3 (depending on how your jammer like to operate) of your ships, nothing is stopping you from doing the same thing.
The ridiculous thing is that sensor damps are useful in every situation ECM is (plus a few more), and don't compete for tanking slots on ships bonused for them, and nobody seems to care. Some SD boats get a bonus to scramble as well ffs, the choice should be obvious.

my other nano is a polycarb

Desiderya
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#25 - 2016-10-15 23:56:37 UTC
All in all, for diceroll based PvP the twenty second duration feels too long.

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.

Old Pervert
Perkone
Caldari State
#26 - 2016-10-17 20:45:10 UTC
Desiderya wrote:
All in all, for diceroll based PvP the twenty second duration feels too long.


Heck yes it does. I'd love to see the cycle time dropped down to 5-10 seconds.
Master Sergeant MacRobert
Space-Brewery-Association
Local Is Primary
#27 - 2016-10-18 21:00:43 UTC
Sigh
Old Pervert wrote:
Sigh lol.
Would you rather RSD? Your guns would still work, but they're not gonna be inside your targeting range, so... same effect, you die. Well, not quite the same, because then you make a thread complaining about RSD instead of ECM.


RSD does not stop you engaging in all activities other than pointing your ship somewhere.
With RSD: You are still able to use mods at close range and you are still able to pilot.
RSD pilots either uses a long point that can be escaped or it requires someone else to be close to hold point/scram etc. whom may be aggressed, attacked with energy warfare, drones, ewar of your own or escaped using range control from your own mids.

ECM does not allow for this. You lose all ability to control range, energy warfare, guns, missiles (fof is a poor substitute), use of your own EW and possibly drones as the Drone AI does not activate drones on a target if you are jammed and aggressed before they are launched.

Old Pervert wrote:
How about TD/GD? A pilgrim with 2 TDs can reduce a Ferox with Spike down to a whopping 15km range (according to pyfa, I'm not logged in atm). Your guns still work, but they're not gonna be in range so... same effect.


See above. TD's or GD make the weapons ineffective not all things.

Old Pervert wrote:
Your ship has weaknesses, just like theirs. Take a look at ECM. It is RNG-based. If that jam doesn't land, odds are they're gonna get blapped. How would you like it if your active tank only worked 50% of the time with a 20 second cycle time?

EWAR is a means of killing other ships. It has strengths and drawbacks. Almost guaranteed the EWAR ship you face will be sacrificing tank or dps (or both if you're a falcon) for said EWAR.


This you present as an argument to justify the ECM mechanic? These are all symptoms caused by the original mechanic being broken.

I'm happy to sit on the fence and hear the same situational arguments thrown back and forth through discussions of "ECM is overpowered" or "ECM is not".

  • The mechanism is a failure of design.
  • It is poor gameplay and results in reduced interaction.
  • It leads to frustration (by both the user and the target in turn) depending on the circumstances of the situation.
  • It requires ship hulls that are not only specialist but are nerfed compared to their peer hulls in dps, manoeuvrability and tank.
  • It requires a reduced range compared to other forms of EWAR.
  • It requires that as many of the EW modules are fitted just to make the RND probability pass test a likelihood.
  • It requires a module that stacking boosts unlike other modules that have a stacking penalty (the more you fit the better the chance of jams).


This is not good for the game. ECM should be stripped out and replaced. Not buffed not nerfed. Redesigned. Make a system that is fun to play with and against without a win or bust situation every time.

Personally I like a model based on heat damage of modules inside the target ship with a byproduct of forced capsule ejection.

"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"

Master Sergeant MacRobert
Space-Brewery-Association
Local Is Primary
#28 - 2016-10-18 21:18:53 UTC
Nikea Tiber wrote:
Oh look. Another ECM thread.

It works as intended.


Irrelevant. The design was flawed from the start. Whether it is currently working as intended or not, it is poor design and poor gameplay. The current design is a rework of a rework because the original design saw ECM modules put on every hull possible.

Nikea Tiber wrote:
The opposition filled out a seat just to nullify 1-3 (depending on how your jammer like to operate) of your ships, nothing is stopping you from doing the same thing.


Not all ECM is deployed and played as you describe. It is at it's least effective when used to jam multiple targets. ECM often then fails to produce the required effect as the ECM ship is made primary and dies quickly because it has no tank (by design because of the broken mechanic).

The ECM pilot either decides to use ECM the most effective way or stops trying to use ECM. When they learn that ECM is best used on one target (may be two) the probability rises and the devastating effect of multiple successful cycles of jam (neutralising all items on a ship) becomes reality.

This is rarely used in Fleet operations of medium (8) or up because the ECM hull will be instantly primary (if within reach) and has no tank because all of the ECM hulls were nerfed due to the broken effect of ECM.

Nikea Tiber wrote:
The ridiculous thing is that sensor damps are useful in every situation ECM is (plus a few more), and don't compete for tanking slots on ships bonused for them, and nobody seems to care. Some SD boats get a bonus to scramble as well ffs, the choice should be obvious.


RSD does not deny use of mods at close range and range control is a very important aspect of all Eve. It has a sweetspot if the correct situation is engineered that puts it close to ECM in small / medium (kite) fleets.

It relies heavily on range control, from the target, where ECM does not.

"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"

Master Sergeant MacRobert
Space-Brewery-Association
Local Is Primary
#29 - 2016-10-18 21:21:43 UTC
Old Pervert wrote:
Desiderya wrote:
All in all, for diceroll based PvP the twenty second duration feels too long.


Heck yes it does. I'd love to see the cycle time dropped down to 5-10 seconds.


Work on the drone AI whereby a pilot might choose an auto-aggress preset priority list would perhaps help improve counters to all EWAR.

However, the denial of all actions by the ECM effect is broken, no matter how good or bad the chance of success, no matter how weak the hull wielding this weapon.

"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"

Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2016-10-21 10:21:42 UTC
Take away RNG, switch to jam duration.

For example, 10-strong jam vs. 20 sensor strength jams for 10s out of the 20s module cycle time.

Re-balance ECM strengths across the board to taste, considering that losing all locked targets is already a strong effect, even if you can re-lock after a few seconds.

Throw ECM an optimal and falloff into the mix, possibly decreasing optimal to compensate jam certainty with ship vulnerability.

Could spice things up a bit.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#31 - 2016-10-21 15:22:07 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Take away RNG, switch to jam duration.

For example, 10-strong jam vs. 20 sensor strength jams for 10s out of the 20s module cycle time.

Re-balance ECM strengths across the board to taste, considering that losing all locked targets is already a strong effect, even if you can re-lock after a few seconds.

Throw ECM an optimal and falloff into the mix, possibly decreasing optimal to compensate jam certainty with ship vulnerability.

Could spice things up a bit.


That's the most brokenly OP idea I've ever heard. That powerful of an on-demand lockbreaker would basically make ECM an every-ship kind of thing.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2016-10-21 18:00:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Gully Alex Foyle
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Take away RNG, switch to jam duration.

For example, 10-strong jam vs. 20 sensor strength jams for 10s out of the 20s module cycle time.

Re-balance ECM strengths across the board to taste, considering that losing all locked targets is already a strong effect, even if you can re-lock after a few seconds.

Throw ECM an optimal and falloff into the mix, possibly decreasing optimal to compensate jam certainty with ship vulnerability.

Could spice things up a bit.


That's the most brokenly OP idea I've ever heard. That powerful of an on-demand lockbreaker would basically make ECM an every-ship kind of thing.

Obviously there would be a limit, like <25% strength/sensor nothing happens.

Then it depends on how it's balanced.

EDIT: you could also have your previous locks come back automatically, without having to re-lock.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#33 - 2016-10-21 19:52:39 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:

Obviously there would be a limit, like <25% strength/sensor nothing happens.

Then it depends on how it's balanced.

EDIT: you could also have your previous locks come back automatically, without having to re-lock.



So it's either completely OP, or a completely wasted slot? What?

Even in the case that it came back "automatically" it would be broke as hell.

Getting kited by one balanced legion guy? Align, jam, warp. Nevermind the implications for guaranteed, even if brief, cessation of logi ability in fleet fights. Staggered modules could -literally- permajam, as well.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Ria Nieyli
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#34 - 2016-10-21 20:12:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Ria Nieyli
Introduce a counter. Each jammer cycle increases the counter. Having higher sensor strength would mean the counter increases slowly, having less means faster. Higher jammer strength would increase the rate at which the counter ticks. Once it reaches 100, you get jammed. After the jam has run its duration, reset the counter. Introduce a stacking penalty meaning no more than 1 jammer can tick the counter. Good enough?
Aehren Armitage
#35 - 2016-11-14 11:51:03 UTC
As an ECM pilot, just FYI:



  • ECM modules have to be stacked much more than other EWAR to have a real chance of working, which seriously screws over midslots

  • That pilot must have gotten either really lucky and had a full stack of correct racial jammers for you, or you fly the same ship every time and you're predictable *queue delta goodrem*

  • Just as certain ships are vulnerable to damps (anything with a mediocre lock range in particular), or weapon disruptors (any weapon system with low range or tracking (WDs can even adjust on the fly!)), certain ships are more vulnerable to ECM than others. You don't fly a ship with 40km lock range and ***** about damps, why are you flying a ship with low sensor strength and bitching about ECM?

  • To expand on the above, those other EWAR modules are effective all the time as long as you're in range. ECM is highly specialized and prone to failure unless the enemy has good intel on you- which, if the case, stacks the outcome against you in general, and in many worse ways than the right jammers



As a small gang pilot, we recently ran a drill to test an improve our methods. I am fully skilled in ECM and of 4 jams of the correct racial type, only one would land on average per use of all 4. That's one ship (with skills that took months to train) to have an average chance of countering one other ship.

Look, I get not being able to lock anything is frustrating, but it comes at a significant cost to the enemy and can backfire spectacularly. I think most ECM complaints come from the effect making the victim feel so clearly impotent, while other forms of EWAR have a very similar effect but don't have quite the same impact on the psyche (even though they still make your ship useless when applied correctly, just like ECM, but without the required legwork).

If it's more than a one-off for you (I'd hope so, as I doubt this post would exist if you got damped to uselessness and died one time), try a drone or FOF boat, as they virtually don't give a crap about ECM.

Our lives are not our own.

From womb to tomb, we are bound to others, past and present.

And by each crime, and every kindness, we birth our future.

Tung Yoggi
SnaiLs aNd FroGs
#36 - 2016-11-15 10:42:56 UTC
ECM is as broken as its advocates' arguments.
Master Sergeant MacRobert
Space-Brewery-Association
Local Is Primary
#37 - 2016-11-15 17:30:42 UTC
Aehren Armitage wrote:
As an ECM pilot, just FYI:


[list]
  • ECM modules have to be stacked much more than other EWAR to have a real chance of working, which seriously screws over midslots



  • yes ECM Modules are broken. You cannot just fit 2 or 3 to then hope and pray that you manage to jam a target. The chance of jam success rises the more ECM modules you apply to one target.

    Aehren Armitage wrote:

  • That pilot must have gotten either really lucky and had a full stack of correct racial jammers for you, or you fly the same ship every time and you're predictable *queue delta goodrem*


  • The chance for success to jam a target becomes very high once you apply 4, 5 or more ECM modules to a single target. You only need 1 success from all the modules used to achieve the desired effect on the target.


    Aehren Armitage wrote:

  • Just as certain ships are vulnerable to damps (anything with a mediocre lock range in particular), or weapon disruptors (any weapon system with low range or tracking (WDs can even adjust on the fly!)), certain ships are more vulnerable to ECM than others. You don't fly a ship with 40km lock range and ***** about damps, why are you flying a ship with low sensor strength and bitching about ECM?


  • Irrelevant. All other forms of ewar require range control and only SD's , sometimes affect the targets use of their own med slot modules.

    Aehren Armitage wrote:

    As a small gang pilot, we recently ran a drill to test an improve our methods. I am fully skilled in ECM and of 4 jams of the correct racial type, only one would land on average per use of all 4. That's one ship (with skills that took months to train) to have an average chance of countering one other ship.


    It takes months to train lots of things. You achieved the desired affect. A jammed target. A target that quite probably was jammed for many more cycles of the 4 ECM modules you used.

    Aehren Armitage wrote:

    Look, I get not being able to lock anything is frustrating, but it comes at a significant cost to the enemy and can backfire spectacularly. I think most ECM complaints come from the effect making the victim feel so clearly impotent, while other forms of EWAR have a very similar effect but don't have quite the same impact on the psyche (even though they still make your ship useless when applied correctly, just like ECM, but without the required legwork).

    If it's more than a one-off for you (I'd hope so, as I doubt this post would exist if you got damped to uselessness and died one time), try a drone or FOF boat, as they virtually don't give a crap about ECM.


    Once again, the use of ECM can be as frustrating to the user as it is to the one target who lost gameplay for the whole of a fight they were in.

    Once again, the arguments that start with "overpowered" or "underpowered" are null and void. They are irrelevant.

    I made this clear in my earlier posts. The ECM mechanic should be stripped out (not buffed, not nerfed, not kept the same) and replaced.

    "Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"

    greg01
    T.R.I.A.D
    Ushra'Khan
    #38 - 2016-11-27 09:45:59 UTC
    Perhaps spending more time using, apologies, learning tactics of overcoming nasty ECM pilots with the tools available to you in-game?????

    There are many.....

    And Yes, I could have been helpful and explained just a few but the is EVE. Stop crying over a very old spilled milk topic and move on.

    P.S. I await my grammar **** correcting colleague Silverbackyererse to respond from the sidelines. This is to to cheer me up from yet another sad "ECM is broken thread"

    Embrace the ECM butt hurt or work out how to beat it!



    Master Sergeant MacRobert
    Space-Brewery-Association
    Local Is Primary
    #39 - 2016-11-27 15:02:50 UTC
    greg01 wrote:
    Perhaps spending more time using, apologies, learning tactics of overcoming nasty ECM pilots with the tools available to you in-game?????

    There are many.....

    And Yes, I could have been helpful and explained just a few but the is EVE. Stop crying over a very old spilled milk topic and move on.

    P.S. I await my grammar **** correcting colleague Silverbackyererse to respond from the sidelines. This is to to cheer me up from yet another sad "ECM is broken thread"

    Embrace the ECM butt hurt or work out how to beat it!


    RollLOL. Thanks very much for the "I declare Ice Cream is hot! I said it, so it must be true!" post.

    Your lack of any elements of convincing argument accentuates your fail.


    Threads about "ECM being broke" continue to return because the previous attempts to fix it all failed too. They failed because they nerfed and buffed a broken mechanism rather than change it.

    Still have yet to see anything concrete, from the ECM is fine lobby group, other than irrelevant situational examples of how it is not overpowered.

    Try harder.

    "Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"

    Torothanax
    #40 - 2016-11-28 04:39:52 UTC
    I think what most of you crying about ECM seem to miss, is if you are outnumbered, you'be probably already lost, ECM or no. Do you really think you, in whatever ship makes you feel badass, should be able to counter several other players at once?

    ECM has been nerfed heavily several times over the course of time. It's not an "I win" button in an even fight. ECMs are race specific or face a drastic penalty to strength. ECMs are relatively short range, with only one ship i can think of having a range bonus anymore (I've been gone 4 years, not 100% on that.) there are skills now that counter ECM as well as implants. There have always been mods to counter them. As stated several times, larger and higher end ships have higher sensor strengths. ECM ships have fewer low slots then most other ships, and generally have little tank and no tackle. ECM's are chance based. What other module in EVE works that way? They fail often. Usually at the cost of the ECM ship.


    They are not the most effective ewar modules anymore either. There was a time when NOS and one or two multispec ECM in the mid was a required fit. Not even remotely true any more. Ever tried killing that tackle frigate when you've got 1 or more tracking disruptors on you? How about even locking that frigate with several sensor damps on you? What about your knife range bruiser, double webbed by a long point? Target painters are probably the lest useful and used Ewar.



    Bottom line it that it's not the ECM killing you, it's you being out numbered or outclassed in the first place. Pick your fights better. If you get soloed by an ECM ship you're probably doing something wrong. Post the kill mail so we can laugh at you.
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