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Operation Moonshock [DECLASSIFIED]

Author
Seraphim Risen
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#161 - 2016-09-29 20:04:05 UTC
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
I don't know, it seems Mr Booly should give more open and definitive answer. After 4th or 5th time who would have any doubt that he personally don't care, just saying.


Open and definitive answer to what?

Never not badpost.

Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#162 - 2016-09-29 20:04:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Arrendis
Makoto Priano wrote:
This discussion has veered rather far from its topic. Shall we return to it?


Gladly.
Merchant Rova
Miata Waifu Club
#163 - 2016-09-29 21:05:15 UTC
Luna Hanaya wrote:

And? That doesn't make them even iota better.

My point is, what you think of as "Terrorists" (IE Minmatar rebelling), others see as freedom fighters, including me. So yes, it does make them better than your description.
Luna Hanaya
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#164 - 2016-09-29 21:17:49 UTC
Merchant Rova wrote:
Luna Hanaya wrote:

And? That doesn't make them even iota better.

My point is, what you think of as "Terrorists" (IE Minmatar rebelling), others see as freedom fighters, including me. So yes, it does make them better than your description.

I can call them terrorists, I can call them freedom fighters. It changes nothing and sounds almost the same. Just terrorist is shorter to say: one word instead of two. Both of definitions are right, but neither of these definitions will make them sound as good people.

Both 'terrorist' and 'freedom fighter' mean that they are sinners, mass-murderers and warmongers, who don't value people lives.

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Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#165 - 2016-09-29 21:43:29 UTC
Luna Hanaya wrote:
I can call them terrorists, I can call them freedom fighters. It changes nothing and sounds almost the same. Just terrorist is shorter to say: one word instead of two. Both of definitions are right, but neither of these definitions will make them sound as good people.

Both 'terrorist' and 'freedom fighter' mean that they are sinners, mass-murderers and warmongers, who don't value people lives.


It would seem you fail to understand how the two terms play in the rest of the cluster. Or, really, what the two terms even actually mean.

A 'terrorist' is someone who engages in violence in order to cause fear and public panic, so that pressure is applied to meet their political demands. They commonly attack non-combatants and civilian populations whose only connection to, or ability to respond to those demands, is the political pressure they can exert. An example would be if a bunch of Gallente started detonating explosives in the middle of civilian populations on Amarr stations of in Amarr cities, with a stated goal of forcing the Empire to abandon its alliance with the State.

A 'freedom fighter', by contrast, is one who engages in violence in order to promote the self-determination of a population or segments of a population, normally his own, who do not have self-determination under the current order. This is generally seen as a beneficial goal, even among the majority of the State's political class, who understand that the words 'freedom' and 'chaos' are not, in fact, synonyms, and recognize that the Caldari State's war against the Federation began as a war for self-determination.

While many 'freedom fighters' resort to terrorism in their struggle, it's also entirely possible for 'freedom fighters' to limit their activities to legitimate military targets—which includes heads of State, especially when on a military vessel surrounded by their military honor guard. In fact, as most 'freedom fighters' oppose a significantly more militarily powerful force, if they do conduct legitimate asymmetric warfare without engaging in terrorist activities, the reason for those tactics is that they specifically do put a high value on individual lives, and take great pains to avoid civilian casualties—military casualties, of course, even in an asymmetric war, are not 'murders'. Moreover, in these situations, they will often have exhausted the political options they believe are reasonable, and generally have a very public, accessible, and highly subjective piece of documentation that lays out the steps taken to resolve the situation peacefully, and makes the case for why the status quo is an oppressive system. This documentation, which will be as easily available as they can make it, will also explain why the (subjectively, at least) oppressive system is tantamount to a declaration of war on the part of those in power.

'Sinner', of course, is an entirely subjective determination, made by those in a position of authority over your religion—at least until such time as it can be proven to be a direct determination made by God. That, however, would first require God himself be proven to exist.
Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
#166 - 2016-09-29 21:48:13 UTC
I have a different question. It seems to me that Lady Seraphim Risen has gone from "someone mildly pro-Amarr" to "someone who attempts to assassinate the Amarr Empress" all at once with no particularly satisfying explanation given for this change. Might we request such an explanation? I mean, it is not as if the Amarr Empire is much less opposed the the ideals of Rote Kapelle this week as it was last week, no?
Aldrith Shutaq
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#167 - 2016-09-29 22:00:45 UTC
I was just going to assume she's lost her mind and any explanation is not worth the effort of figuring out. Such as with you.

Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle

Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Lord Consort of Lady Mitara Newelle, Champion of House Sarum and Holder of Damnidios Para'nashu

Maria Daphiti
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#168 - 2016-09-29 22:01:27 UTC
Capsuleer Dementia?
Seraphim Risen
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#169 - 2016-09-29 22:04:33 UTC
Perhaps its because few have ever actually talked to me about my beliefs over the last six to nine months? I'll keep that to myself, though. Am I mad? Probably. Am I unstable? Most likely.

Never not badpost.

Aldrith Shutaq
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#170 - 2016-09-29 22:11:10 UTC
Probably because your beliefs are not valid if they lead you to something like this. Someone might have listened before this betrayal, but not now.

Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle

Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Lord Consort of Lady Mitara Newelle, Champion of House Sarum and Holder of Damnidios Para'nashu

Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
#171 - 2016-09-29 22:18:45 UTC
Seraphim Risen wrote:
Perhaps its because few have ever actually talked to me about my beliefs over the last six to nine months? I'll keep that to myself, though. Am I mad? Probably. Am I unstable? Most likely.


I'm sorry that I wasn't around to ask you about your beliefs, madam. You sound lonely. I hope you get your sanity and stability back.
Mika Firestorm
Your Friendly Neighborhood Logistics
#172 - 2016-09-29 22:18:54 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
This is generally seen as a beneficial goal, even among the majority of the State's political class, who understand that the words 'freedom' and 'chaos' are not, in fact, synonyms, and recognize that the Caldari State's war against the Federation began as a war for self-determination.

Excuse me for intervening into your discussion with Ms. Hanaya, but on other hand it doesn't matter much since you yourself built your whole reply on a Caldari State - a topic that I have been researching for several years, trying to get their citizenship, and a topic which I assume has nothing to do with Ms. Hanaya's reply.

And as someone who actually did some background study about the State, I simply can't stand obvious disinformation you include in your reply. Namely - your sentence that I have quoted. I have given you already a thorough reply how freedom and chaos in official Napanii language are polyseme (no, not a synonym) here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6655065#post6655065 And I am utterly disappointed you still failed to understand it. Synonyms are multiple words with a single meaning, while a polyseme is a single word with multiple meanings. I bet you reference them as 'synonyms' after Diana's speeches (who unfortunately loves speaking about freedom because of her political inclination, causing a lot of unnecessary confusion and misunderstanding) , but that only shows that you have failed to understand that trivial linguistic phenomenon. And it makes it twice worse that you failed to understand it even after the explanation.

There are a lot of other languages in the State, and while most of them are derivatives of ancient Caldari, modern speakers of Caldari dialects from different regions won't even understand each other. But these dialects are considered 'street' languages, which you don't speak in high society. Thus, we could make assumption that actually State's political class speaks on Napanii to show their affiliation with elites and educated class, and therefore we can expect that speakers from State's political class won't distinguish words 'chaos' and 'freedom' as well.

On the other hand, they could speak 'street'-level language, but then it won't be State's political class, but rather State's marginal class that loves to banter about political events. Unfortunately, I haven't studied them that deep and know words for 'chaos' and 'freedom' only from the official Napanii language - 'vaajpa'. But since you have been claiming otherwise, maybe you will actually show that you have something behind your reply rather than trivial attempt at trolling and show us that unlike me you know some dialects of native Caldari languages.

Please tell us, what are words for 'freedom' and 'chaos' in the dialect of Caldari language that you were referencing?

State the nature of your medical emergency

Seraphim Risen
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#173 - 2016-09-29 22:27:34 UTC
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:
Probably because your beliefs are not valid if they lead you to something like this. Someone might have listened before this betrayal, but not now.


Mine wasn't the first betrayal.

Nauplius wrote:
Seraphim Risen wrote:
Perhaps its because few have ever actually talked to me about my beliefs over the last six to nine months? I'll keep that to myself, though. Am I mad? Probably. Am I unstable? Most likely.


I'm sorry that I wasn't around to ask you about your beliefs, madam. You sound lonely. I hope you get your sanity and stability back.


I'm far from lonely! I have voices! In my head! Not really, but its an old joke.

Never not badpost.

Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#174 - 2016-09-29 22:31:26 UTC
Beliefs not being valid due to them causing violence......... Pretty sure my ancestors would have something to say on that regard.
Aldrith Shutaq
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#175 - 2016-09-29 22:40:31 UTC
I never said her beliefs were not valid due to them causing violence.

Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle

Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Lord Consort of Lady Mitara Newelle, Champion of House Sarum and Holder of Damnidios Para'nashu

Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#176 - 2016-09-29 22:42:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Arrendis
Mika Firestorm wrote:
I have given you already a thorough reply how freedom and chaos in official Napanii language are polyseme (no, not a synonym) here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6655065#post6655065 And I am utterly disappointed you still failed to understand it.

[. . .]

Please tell us, what are words for 'freedom' and 'chaos' in the dialect of Caldari language that you were referencing?


I understand it just fine. I also understand a minor detail you seem to overlook: We're not using Napanii right now, are we?

An edit to be clearer: We're not speaking Napanii. We're not speaking directly to one another at all. You might be reading this in Napanii, but if you're doing that, knowing that there's a discussion specifically about the difference between two separate concepts—which even you acknowledge are separate concepts—that share a word in Napanii, then that's a bit foolish and lazy, don't you think? I'm currently writing this in Amarrish, as it tends to be the language most of the conversationalists here speak and use natively. For that reason, when I'm here, I often do. If I were in predominantly Gallentean company—as I often am in my administrative role for RepSwarm (freakin' Oneiros pilots)—I'd be using Gallentean. It's not like linguasofts are even a tenth the price of command skillsofts for advanced hulls.

The vast majority of Matari speak at least two languages, and we get looked down on for being uncivilized and poorly-educated. I can't imagine the political classes of Caldari society don't speak at least Amarrish and Gallentean, even if they don't like the latter. Sometimes, you just want to know exactly how someone's insulting you, after all.

So knowing that they almost certainly all speak at least two languages and probably all four of the 'official' languages of the Cluster's 'great powers', in a discussion about concepts where one's 'default' language makes the subject matter unclear, and with perfect instantaneous translation services available through a number of sources including every single free Ibis out there, there's really no excuse for not being willing to take the moment and a half involved in asking 'which meaning is that?', even if you can't be bothered to just use a language more suited to the subject matter.
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#177 - 2016-09-29 22:44:18 UTC
Seraphim Risen wrote:

Mine wasn't the first betrayal.


Well, as someone who's certainly not an Amarr loyalist and has enjoyed drinking with you in the past, I'll bite: what was?
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#178 - 2016-09-29 22:51:32 UTC
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:
Probably because your beliefs are not valid if they lead you to something like this. Someone might have listened before this betrayal, but not now.


Pretty sure detonating 2 paladin's next to a head of state is an act of violence, then again it's a different kind of violence (one I can't honestly say I fully agree with due to possible collateral damage and the risks)

Ya I'm not going to argue this one, I misread intention.
Aldrith Shutaq
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#179 - 2016-09-29 23:08:55 UTC
Of course it's an act of violence. That is not what I find disagreeable.

It was an act of violence against the newly crowned head of the Amarr Empire, my home and the state upon which almost everyone I hold dear depends upon for their security and prosperity.

It's not just violence, it's personal.

Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle

Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Lord Consort of Lady Mitara Newelle, Champion of House Sarum and Holder of Damnidios Para'nashu

Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#180 - 2016-09-29 23:12:51 UTC
That is true, do you know if the other heads of state were aboard by any chance?