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Why do people assume how we play the game reflects us in real life?

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Zanar Skwigelf
HIgh Sec Care Bears
Brothers of Tangra
#41 - 2016-09-07 15:32:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Zanar Skwigelf
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
Another major point of contention seems to be over what is actually "bad" within a video game.


I mean in RL - most people can agree that killing someone is bad. But that is because in RL people don't re-spawn - so it is a permanent thing. By killing someone, you take away their very life itself. And *everything* within it.

But in a game - people just re-spawn. Depending on the game they may lose very little, or even nothing at all. Even in EVE - the vast majority of deaths are minor inconveniences at most - and the ones that are more significant are made so only through the foolish actions of the person in question. But even then - even the worst financial losses are only space-assets that the person can accumulate again if they care to put the time/effort into doing so.


Thus - "Killing" someone within a video game is *not* inherently evil - and there is no grounds to state that someone who kills people inside the game will kill them outside of the game - because they are not even remotely close to being the same action.



Basically this. It's not "an extension of who you are", it's that the in game punishment doesn't fit the crime. Blapping a miner sends you both to Jita where you both reship and go back to the same belt minutes later.

Killing someone IRL either gets you killed or sent to prison for a long time.

If there's anything about this is observing how people weigh rewards against consequences.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#42 - 2016-09-07 15:33:23 UTC
You have to be very careful on this definition of bad, I am going to get into RL stuff which is of course not good news on the Eve forums. A while back some environmentalists said that it would be a good thing if the human race suffered some sort of plague that seriously reduced the number of humans on the planet. Some people would see them as good, others as bad.

There are people in this world who kill someone for expressing something they find offensive, there are others who socially exclude, jail, fine, get them sacked from their job and prevent them from finding work for expressing something they find offensive, both are bad, but for some only the first is bad.

The ability to role play is actually a lot of fun in games where role playing is a major part of the game, but I can definitely say that Eve is not a role playing game, at least for what I have seen, I can role play it if I chose to, but there are a majority of Eve players who are not role playing even if they tell themselves that they are.

Simple question one has to ask is are you trying to garner an upset response from the player as your primary reason for blowing them up, if you do then I will just smile knowingly in your direction... Shocked Not that I care of course Big smile

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Chopper Rollins
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#43 - 2016-09-07 15:37:18 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
How you behave in a game is a reflection of how you would behave in RL if there were no laws to punish or stop you behaving that way.

Absolutely, I would totally dunk miners in RL but the law prevents me from behaving that way.


Some of us think of ethics as a complex thing for the greatest of minds and that people are evil unless violent overseers are constantly watching.
Others, about 98% of the population, know that ethics are expected of everyone over about 5 years of age and are used by everyone all the time.
Within the 'magic circle' of a game's rules though, all bets are off. It's only when the rules are evaded or broken that you can question another player's ethics.
"Is only gaem, y u hef to be med?"




Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
Lulu Lunette
Savage Moon Society
#44 - 2016-09-07 15:39:47 UTC
Well I hope this thread doesn't derail into some lame RL philosophical/socio/economic/political/ethical thread but in New Eden I have literally no compunction for shooting a fellow demigod Capsuleer.

@lunettelulu7
Serene Repose
#45 - 2016-09-07 15:39:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Serene Repose
Then again, it's not cut and dry killing someone IRL is a bad thing. Under certain conditions it's a good and preferred thing that is rewarded in some way - the very least in takehome pay.

The idea of "showing ones true self" when not constricted by "social forces" only points out that certain undesireable reactions by others are enough of a threat as to cause someone not to demonstrate certain characteristics they do in truth possess.

The salient point is the idea someone can be involved in any aspect of RL without it being tied to their inescapable psychological make-up. Simply: If you're incapable of doing something, you don't do it. If you are capable, you can...it may not be "will do it" if circumstances do not present themselves.

I contend capitalism produces socipaths through selective breeding. Apparently the psych profession agrees as they revised their handbook and changed the name of sociopathy while attributing certain of its symptoms to "succssful" people. Sure. Stalin was successful - 29 million murders later.

There are two types of sociopaths. One is afraid of what might happen if they express this condition openly. Another doesn't care what "we" do. The latter is a slim minority.

All I've seen here in the "pro- video games are make-believe" camp is a deceptive rationalization of abberant behavior.

We must accommodate the idiocracy.
Chopper Rollins
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2016-09-07 15:41:17 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
then I will just smile knowingly in your direction]


This features in many of your posts, it doesn't add anything to them and comes across as conceited and soft.
Unless that's what you're roleplaying, in which case, well done.



Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#47 - 2016-09-07 15:49:58 UTC
Chopper Rollins wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
then I will just smile knowingly in your direction]


This features in many of your posts, it doesn't add anything to them and comes across as conceited and soft.
Unless that's what you're roleplaying, in which case, well done.

My dear friend, I tend to only shoot people in Eve for in game reasons that affect me and what I am trying to do, it makes it more fun for me at least, for me it is all about self control. I did work out your main, but trolling Aaron and me in the Hub Zero thread was actually amusing, especially as I hated those stupid threads.

But what if I said smiled in a smug conceited way, would that work?

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Dibz
Doomheim
#48 - 2016-09-07 15:54:15 UTC
Our conduct is always a reflection of our character, whatever the context.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#49 - 2016-09-07 16:05:59 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:


*snip*

Simple question one has to ask is are you trying to garner an upset response from the player as your primary reason for blowing them up, if you do then I will just smile knowingly in your direction... Shocked Not that I care of course Big smile

This is really the core point.

I have pirated early in EvE killing people for my own pleasure - it is pleasurable to kill another player in game at least for me.

However a few times after killing players I checked their info and realised they were newbies, so I sent them isk to replace the ship.

While war deccing people I found a few of the younger corp / alliance members easy ganks, killing them 2 or 3 times and then after that I sent them a mail and told them I wouldn't be killing them anymore. Why? I didn't want to harass them, nor did I want to drive them from the corp or game.

Other times after a war dec I'd send the person who died the most or fought back particularly well the fitted ship I'd been killing them all in.

My goal was always to enjoy myself and never to cause other people in game to feel like quitting because their sub helps me and because I'm not an IRL asswipe.

Now some people in game get off on making people quit, or they get off on making the person behind the keyboard angry or upset, Erotica was a good example of someone like that, an IRL scumbag whos playstyle reflected their IRL personality.

People like Baltec1 and goons are the same sort of people, they're happy to sit at a highsec choke and kill empty ships worth 200 to 600 times more than their own ship purely for the pleasure that loss causes to the player they're ganking.

While I wouldn't class them in the same category as Erotica they are people I would consider lowbrow and not associate with IRL.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

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Paranoid Loyd
#50 - 2016-09-07 16:13:57 UTC
Well at least we're not personally attacking anyone. Roll

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Serene Repose
#51 - 2016-09-07 16:18:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Serene Repose
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Well at least we're not personally attacking anyone. Roll
Not yet, anyway. Straight
Dibz wrote:
Our conduct is always a reflection of our character, whatever the context.
Well put, by the way. Succint.

We must accommodate the idiocracy.
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
EDENCOM DEFENSIVE INITIATIVE
#52 - 2016-09-07 16:24:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Nana Skalski
I think I can play a bad character as I can play good character.

I used to do that in Baldurs Gate. And Baldurs Gate 2 Shadows of Amn.

I was a very bad person. Neutral evil character. Like Viconia. Even downloaded "be a drow" mod.
Another time I was a lawful good paladin.

ᴇᴠᴇʀʏ ᴘᴀʀᴛ ᴏғ ᴀ ɢᴀᴍᴇ ʜᴇʟᴘs ᴛᴏ ᴛᴇʟʟ ᴀ sᴛᴏʀʏ 📕

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Chopper Rollins
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#53 - 2016-09-07 16:25:36 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
1) People like Baltec1 and goons are the same sort of people, they're happy to sit at a highsec choke and kill empty ships worth 200 to 600 times more than their own ship purely for the pleasure that loss causes to the player they're ganking.

2) While I wouldn't class them in the same category as Erotica they are people I would consider lowbrow and not associate with IRL.


1) Sometimes after waiting for a target, out of boredom people kill or hotdrop the next thing that comes along, which explains empty ship kills and carriers landing on a lowsec thrasher. To go from there to character flaws is a long bow to draw.

2) Who cares? What you think of them isn't relevant.

I have met a guy who lures new players into his corp, kills them, destroys their assets and kicks them. Once he led 15 miners into nullsec and after he'd loaded up all their assets into a freighter he kicked them all. He actually is a sadist who divides all people into two groups: Losers (people who trust him in any way) and bastards (people who see through him or take advantage of him).
I've spoken with him on comms, i've flown with him. It's his pleasure to try to hurt people and get them to leave the game in despair.
It's a fact that some people are like him. Lying and manipulating since birth and very good at it, better, in fact, than normal people.
You can't roleplay that on his level. Adopting a disgusted, amused or dismissive stance is nothing to the case.



Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#54 - 2016-09-07 16:36:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Dirty Forum Alt
Serene Repose wrote:
I contend capitalism produces socipaths through selective breeding. Apparently the psych profession agrees as they revised their handbook and changed the name of sociopathy while attributing certain of its symptoms to "succssful" people. Sure. Stalin was successful - 29 million murders later.

It is interesting that you blame capitalism but then hold up the example of one of the most famous non-capitalists in the world... And it points out the major flaw in your philosophy.


There is ample historical evidence that would tend to suggest that *humans* in general - regardless of their environment, upbringing, or specific genetics - tend (in general) to be evil, and do evil/bad things any time they think they can get away with it.

This is *why* societies with all of their customs, rules, and laws are so important - and why it has always been considered a "mental illness" if someone for any reason is unwilling/unable to conform to societal expectations.

Ultimately one of the biggest problems is that people refuse to accept that they themselves are inherently evil/bad - so they have to rationalize and reassure themselves that they are "as good as everybody else" or "at least I'm better than that monster over there"...

Additionally there is no mystery in the fact that those who are smart enough to give in to their bad tendencies and skirt societal rules/laws/expectations to get ahead (without going so far that they actually get caught) become successful - everyone else is competing at a severe disadvantage, because they have to follow the rules. And the change in psychological definitions merely indicates that they have attained enough power within society to change society itself - making other conform to their standards, since they refuse to conform to the previously defined standards.



To bring this back to the discussion here, and tie into my previous post - the only reason this is even coming up is because people have a need to believe they are morally superior to other people - so in denying their own dark-side they delight in pointing out the darkness of others.

As I say - I *know* myself. I'm far from perfect. And yes, I have used games like EVE to express some of my darker tendencies in a virtual environment (though other games are better - personally I prefer single-player RPG games for this purpose - as I do not enjoy opening myself up to people even within an anonymous virtual world) - even though I have enough self control I would never do so outside of the game. (Incidentally I have also found that some of my strengths have also been retained within the game world - such as my unwillingness to accept ransoms, nor to scam people, but that is a separate topic of conversation).

Ultimately - video games that place the player within the world as a virtual character were created specifically for the purpose of allowing people to live out a fantasy existence doing things they either can't or won't do in reality. It is stranger to see people *not* using the medium for its intended purpose than to see people expressing their inner dark-sides.

And so I personally find it more interesting to see how people who consider themselves "good" - and who take pride in following their own ethical code even within the fantasy world of a video game - still express their own inner darkness (or their fear of it) in attacking others who have done something to them within the virtual world. Their denial intrigues me - and in some cases the depth of their dark-side...their well-spring of pure hatred... Is actually far more unsettling than any open action could ever be. Particularly coupled with the fact that they honestly believe they are good/blameless...

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Serene Repose
#55 - 2016-09-07 16:40:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Serene Repose
It is interesting you use the word "blame". That is a western civ/capitalist indoctrinated useage. There isn't ample evidence to the contrary as no significant method to organize modern civilization has existed long enough to gather data to make your assertion. Claiming "communism" isn't capitalism won't work as first, there was no communist state ever in existence, and secondly the entire concept of Marxism is just another form of capitalism.

"blame"....interesting...the "guilt" word works its way in there, no?

Psychological disruption is seen as a fair tradeoff for the "organization" capitalism creates. You also have the idea of "winners" and "losers" in life. You have inequity, indoctrination, and the great temple of Wall Street, the priesthood of the investment bankers, even the papal equivalant of the chairman of the Federal Reserve Bank...accepting doctrine without understanding...believing without proof - faith.

Capitalism is a religion. Competiton between members of a social species...interesting use of free will that.

We must accommodate the idiocracy.
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#56 - 2016-09-07 16:42:50 UTC
Serene Repose wrote:
It is interesting you use the word "blame". That is a western civ/capitalist indoctrinated useage. There isn't ample evidence to the contrary as no significant method to organize modern civilization has existed long enough to gather data to make your assertion. Claiming "communism" isn't capitalism won't work as first, there was no communist state ever in existence, and secondly the entire concept of Marxism is just another form of capitalism.

"blame"....interesting...the "guilt" word works its way in there, no?

So your assertion is that capitalism is the only system?

Why bother to call it out then? Everyone is capitalist - I still believe the issue is the species, not their unified economic system used by every culture on earth from the beginning of time.

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Serene Repose
#57 - 2016-09-07 16:45:12 UTC
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
Serene Repose wrote:
It is interesting you use the word "blame". That is a western civ/capitalist indoctrinated useage. There isn't ample evidence to the contrary as no significant method to organize modern civilization has existed long enough to gather data to make your assertion. Claiming "communism" isn't capitalism won't work as first, there was no communist state ever in existence, and secondly the entire concept of Marxism is just another form of capitalism.

"blame"....interesting...the "guilt" word works its way in there, no?

So your assertion is that capitalism is the only system?

Why bother to call it out then? Everyone is capitalist - I still believe the issue is the species, not their unified economic system used by every culture on earth from the beginning of time.
You say it's human nature. I disagree. I also say you have no proof that it is, you just satisfy yourself that it is...after gleaning what information you think "will suit your purposes."

We must accommodate the idiocracy.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#58 - 2016-09-07 16:57:51 UTC
If you are willing to scam, lie and cheat others in something as trivial as a video game, what are you willing to do when real money is at stake?

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Nalia White
Tencus
#59 - 2016-09-07 17:02:42 UTC
i couldn't even bring it over me to sell the girl from little lamp light to the slavers in fallout 3... i tried to do it because i played a bad karma character but after i saw the slaver run off with the girl i ran to the slavercamp and killed everyone of them...

and that was a freaking single player game...

of course i like to murder people in this game and i wouldn't want to do that in real life but when people are asking me afterwards why or how i did it and they don't use insults i will comfort them and brief them what they could do differently. in the case of newer bros i will give them 5 times worth what they lost. and all in 0.0 where people should know that it's dangerous.

i also think that how you treat players in a harsh game like this reflects on who you are. the question i ask myself here is: do you kill or steal from other players because you like your wallet grow (or your statistics get better) or are you in for the reaction of your victim?

it's one thing to gank a miner but then to talk down to him (blabla, calm down miner, blabla mining permit) afterwards even if he shows no initial reaction is just trying to trigger the person...

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Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale
#60 - 2016-09-07 17:20:17 UTC
Nana Skalski wrote:
I think I can play a bad character as I can play good character.

I used to do that in Baldurs Gate. And Baldurs Gate 2 Shadows of Amn.

I was a very bad person. Neutral evil character. Like Viconia. Even downloaded "be a drow" mod.
Another time I was a lawful good paladin.

Not all Drow are evil monsters, though. They aren't born evil and they become what most of them are a few years into their life at the academy.

When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.