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Why do people assume how we play the game reflects us in real life?

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Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#501 - 2016-09-16 18:28:58 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Funny side note: back in the day people who didn't much like EVE but still played it would say "but it's the only space game" as a justification. Now it's not and the justification morphed to "but I have so much invested in it!".
Not really, most of the players that aren't noobs that have some problems with the game, apart from having a lot invested in it still derive a level of entertainment that makes it worthwhile. Noobs on the other hand have no such investment and no knowledge of how much fun they may be able to get, so if the first thing they encounter is the game being very much not fun, they'll probably leave.

Jenn aSide wrote:
The best thing about EVE and games like it (Dwarf Fortress comes to mind) is that their unforgiving natures turn most people off, separating the wheat from the chaff. It's simply the best thing about the game imo, it rewards perseverance, mental toughness and the ability to keep things in context while punishing weakness and the attitude that the world owes one something, especially if one pays 15 bucks for it.
The problem is they keep the chaff and the wheat goes off and plays elsewhere which is why they have been fundamentally changing the game. And no, it rewards weakness, which is why massive groups of players who target the players and the very bottom of the ladder find it so easy to excel.

Jenn aSide wrote:
Slowly CCP has chipped away at this, considering that some kind of 'barrier'. That was a mistake.
If you don't like where EVE is going, feel free to take your own advice and go elsewhere.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Isaac Armer
The Soup Kitchen
#502 - 2016-09-16 18:30:25 UTC
Galaxy Duck wrote:
You're right. In EVE, we even have a word for these kind of players: "weaklings".

It is well known that weaklings can't handle EVE online, that's why it's a niche game. The devs even wrote a song for the sake of these poor saps:

"If you wanna go with us -TO THE TOP- HARDEN THE **** UP!"

Need I say more?


Don't you get tired of being one of the two PR/spin people for CODE on these forums? If you put as much effort into the game as you did rhetoric, you might just pull a decent fight.
Estuary Algaert
Petulant Luddite GmbH
#503 - 2016-09-16 18:39:44 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Some may not go out of their way to specifically target noobs, but being in highsec and targeting people with limited knowledge of or skill at the game will naturally hit the majority of noobs


IMHO, I have encountered more noobs outside HS than in it.

The point of the game is to have fun, good player, bad player, is all subject to interpretation. People who feel this is who we are or what we like IRL need to have a sit down and really think about why they feel that way.
Lacori
Doomheim
#504 - 2016-09-16 18:39:47 UTC
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#505 - 2016-09-16 18:41:47 UTC
Lacori wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgvM7av1o1Q
Big smile


Not just words to play by, imo words to live by.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#506 - 2016-09-16 18:47:47 UTC
Estuary Algaert wrote:
The point of the game is to have fun, good player, bad player, is all subject to interpretation. People who feel this is who we are or what we like IRL need to have a sit down and really think about why they feel that way.
OK, but if your fun is derived from specifically stopping other players having fun, then insulting them about how dumb they are for having the fun away and humiliating them publicly for some kind of epeen contest, surely that does in some way reflect you as a person.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Galaxy Duck
Galaxy Farm Carebear Repurposing
#507 - 2016-09-16 18:50:29 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Galaxy Duck wrote:
You're right. In EVE, we even have a word for these kind of players: "weaklings".
Yeah, CCP defines them slightly differently, as "lost potential customers". Plus let's face it, who's really the weakling, the guy who joins a game, doesn't find it interesting to be griefed by veterans and leaves to find a game that does entertain them, or the veteran player sitting in the highest security section of the game on a disposable alt shooting newbies?


You can keep trying to make this about me personally but the fact remains that the loss of these weaklings is a good thing and doesn't bother the Devs one bit. Reference? see: HTFU

Though, to answer your question, the quitter is the weakling, clearly.

Lucas Kell wrote:

Galaxy Duck wrote:
It is well known that weaklings can't handle EVE online, that's why it's a niche game.
Apparently they can, otherwise there would be noone out to get only easy, low risk kills.


Well if poor noobie weaklings can handle EVE then what are you always ablooblooing about on these forums?

Lucas Kell wrote:

Plus, what exactly becomes of your definition of "sandbox" if you think only one type of player can play it?


This is a reiteration of that tired old carebear whine: "You playing the sandbox however you like infringes on my ability to play however I like!!!!1!"

There's room for all kinds of players in EVE, they just need to have balls is all.


Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#508 - 2016-09-16 18:53:37 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Lacori wrote:
I was banned for being a content creator, and displaying emergent gameplay in GTA 5 Online. Not once was abusive to other members in chat, I merely played the game as I saw fit, and under the terms of the EULA. However, as can be seen, the majority voice is catered to, so I was banned.
In other words you tried to grief people in a game that doesn't tolerate griefing (probably because they value thousands of normal customers over one of you) and you got banned or it. Too bad, so sad.
Then they should change the EULA along the lines of annoying enough people with legal game play and we may still boot you.
Why? I don't think they particularly care whether or not the people they ban think they were banned fairly. Most other games it's simply generally accepted knowledge that it's an entertainment platform and that going out of your way to take that entertainment away from other players will not end well for you.

Teckos Pech wrote:
Actually, it isn't really true. Veterans are not out running around trying to screw over noobs. Some may scam or gank the foolish and imprudent and some of that might include some noobs, but it is unlikely veterans are specifically focusing on new players. Veterans are usually doing other stuff to be bothered with some new guy undocking in Duripant and heading over to Verge Vendor to see what it is like in that region.
Some may not go out of their way to specifically target noobs, but being in highsec and targeting people with limited knowledge of or skill at the game will naturally hit the majority of noobs. That's like running though a forest randomly swinging a chainsaw around and saying "oh sorry trees, I was going after badgers".


Well changing the EULA is honest. Of course they can be dishonest or misleading if they want.

As for veterans ganking, I have no idea who they gank. For example freighter ganking is probably not ganking noobs. If vets are ganking freighters more than they are blowing up T1 frigates where ever they see them, then no it is not noobs getting ganked.


"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#509 - 2016-09-16 18:56:52 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Estuary Algaert wrote:
The point of the game is to have fun, good player, bad player, is all subject to interpretation. People who feel this is who we are or what we like IRL need to have a sit down and really think about why they feel that way.
OK, but if your fun is derived from specifically stopping other players having fun, then insulting them about how dumb they are for having the fun away and humiliating them publicly for some kind of epeen contest, surely that does in some way reflect you as a person.


You can't get away from this in a PvP centered game. That is the point of the game. Whether it is large scale or small scale. That is the point of the game. Try to have along the way, don't take anything personally, and learn from your mistakes. If you walk away from your computer forget to turn on your tank on your mining ship and come back to a wreck...well...ya kinda screwed up. Learn from it. Don't come here whine, ***** and complain.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#510 - 2016-09-16 19:01:39 UTC
Galaxy Duck wrote:


Lucas Kell wrote:

Plus, what exactly becomes of your definition of "sandbox" if you think only one type of player can play it?


This is a reiteration of that tired old carebear whine: "You playing the sandbox however you like infringes on my ability to play however I like!!!!1!"

There's room for all kinds of players in EVE, they just need to have balls is all.



That kind of thinking that one player cannot impinge on how another player is using the sandbox is antithetical to the very nature of the game. The game was intended to be one of spontaneous order, not just game where everyone plays alone on their PC without an internet connection. The whole point was to create an environment where players could interact and through that interaction create an interesting environment.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#511 - 2016-09-16 19:07:19 UTC
Galaxy Duck wrote:
You can keep trying to make this about me personally but the fact remains that the loss of these weaklings is a good thing
I'm not making about you, I'm simply pointing out that someone that seeks the easiest targets in relative safety is objective more of a weakling that someone that simply decides paying for a game that doesn't entertain them isn't what they want.

Galaxy Duck wrote:
and doesn't bother the Devs one bit. Reference? see: HTFU
Yep, you can keeping linking a song from a few years back, and I'm sure if you do it enough CCP won't be simplifying game mechanics, nerfing grief mechanics and introducing free to play to appeal to mass markets. Think you'll need to link it a few thousand more times though.

Galaxy Duck wrote:
Though, to answer your question, the quitter is the weakling, clearly.
ROFL, so by not paying for a game they don't find entertaining, they are a weakling, while paying to play a game, but just sitting in the easiest area shooting newbies, that's super hardcore?

Galaxy Duck wrote:
Well if poor noobie weaklings can handle EVE then what are you always ablooblooing about on these forums?
I'm never ablooblooblooing, I'm simply pointing out the reality and supporting CCP in their moves to improve the game and encouraging them to take further steps to reduce the impact of the less desirible aspects of the community, i.e. the people that sit around "tear harvesting" because they get a kick out of feeling powerful in the virtual world where they can without actually doing anything remotely challenging.

Galaxy Duck wrote:
This is a reiteration of that tired old carebear whine: "You playing the sandbox however you like infringes on my ability to play however I like!!!!1!"

There's room for all kinds of players in EVE, they just need to have balls is all.
So not "all kinds" then, you specifically want a sausage party?

But to be serious, yes, there is room for all kinds, and that's why I support any move to reduce the impact of the types of players that actively seek to remove whole demographics of players from the game.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Estuary Algaert
Petulant Luddite GmbH
#512 - 2016-09-16 19:11:06 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Estuary Algaert wrote:
The point of the game is to have fun, good player, bad player, is all subject to interpretation. People who feel this is who we are or what we like IRL need to have a sit down and really think about why they feel that way.
OK, but if your fun is derived from specifically stopping other players having fun, then insulting them about how dumb they are for having the fun away and humiliating them publicly for some kind of epeen contest, surely that does in some way reflect you as a person.


Agreed, going to said length is neither constructive or RP and would point you out as a douche regardless of what style of play someone was enjoying at the time.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#513 - 2016-09-16 19:17:05 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Well changing the EULA is honest. Of course they can be dishonest or misleading if they want.
Call it what you want, they still don't care. If you want to intentionally alienate players from their game, they obviously don't think you are worth the time it takes to write a clause into their EULA.

Teckos Pech wrote:
As for veterans ganking, I have no idea who they gank. For example freighter ganking is probably not ganking noobs. If vets are ganking freighters more than they are blowing up T1 frigates where ever they see them, then no it is not noobs getting ganked.
The majority of ganks are against smaller ships that noobs can fly, and most people who aren't noobs know how to avoid ganks because the people who perfom them are not very skilled.

Teckos Pech wrote:
You can't get away from this in a PvP centered game. That is the point of the game. Whether it is large scale or small scale. That is the point of the game. Try to have along the way, don't take anything personally, and learn from your mistakes. If you walk away from your computer forget to turn on your tank on your mining ship and come back to a wreck...well...ya kinda screwed up. Learn from it. Don't come here whine, ***** and complain.
Sure you can, PvP games exist that allow both sides to have fun, win or lose. They do it by ensuring both sides are balanced and that new players are to an extent buffered from being instantly obliterated by veterans.

And absloutely people that make serious mistakes should find themselves obliterated, but I don't think a bunch of veterans flying around on disposable alts in cheap ships shooting up active ships should be quite as rewarded as they are for the little effort they put in. Whatever happened to risk/reward huh?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lacori
Doomheim
#514 - 2016-09-16 19:24:53 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:


Galaxy Duck wrote:
Well if poor noobie weaklings can handle EVE then what are you always ablooblooing about on these forums?
I'm never ablooblooblooing,


You made me snort coffee up my nose!

That's hurting me in real life, so obv will file a petition.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#515 - 2016-09-16 19:26:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Lucas Kell wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Well changing the EULA is honest. Of course they can be dishonest or misleading if they want.
Call it what you want, they still don't care. If you want to intentionally alienate players from their game, they obviously don't think you are worth the time it takes to write a clause into their EULA.

Teckos Pech wrote:
As for veterans ganking, I have no idea who they gank. For example freighter ganking is probably not ganking noobs. If vets are ganking freighters more than they are blowing up T1 frigates where ever they see them, then no it is not noobs getting ganked.
The majority of ganks are against smaller ships that noobs can fly, and most people who aren't noobs know how to avoid ganks because the people who perfom them are not very skilled.

Teckos Pech wrote:
You can't get away from this in a PvP centered game. That is the point of the game. Whether it is large scale or small scale. That is the point of the game. Try to have along the way, don't take anything personally, and learn from your mistakes. If you walk away from your computer forget to turn on your tank on your mining ship and come back to a wreck...well...ya kinda screwed up. Learn from it. Don't come here whine, ***** and complain.
Sure you can, PvP games exist that allow both sides to have fun, win or lose. They do it by ensuring both sides are balanced and that new players are to an extent buffered from being instantly obliterated by veterans.

And absloutely people that make serious mistakes should find themselves obliterated, but I don't think a bunch of veterans flying around on disposable alts in cheap ships shooting up active ships should be quite as rewarded as they are for the little effort they put in. Whatever happened to risk/reward huh?


We aren't here to play world of tanks. We aren't here to play a game with a matchmaker. We are here for the PvP and the sandbox.

As for ganks, you have nothing to support your claim. And before you say neither do I, I already admitted that.

And lastly a company and developers being honest and fair with their customers is usually a better business plan that the opposite. Of course they are fee to be misleading and unfair, but that can back fire.

Edit: As for reward, you keep forgetting that it takes both sides to create that reward. The veterans with their alts and cheap ships and the moron who put 8 billion ISK worth of cargo in his ship and flew it, without an escort/scout, through Uedama.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#516 - 2016-09-16 19:29:30 UTC
Lacori wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Galaxy Duck wrote:
Well if poor noobie weaklings can handle EVE then what are you always ablooblooing about on these forums?
I'm never ablooblooblooing,
You made me snort coffee up my nose!

That's hurting me in real life, so obv will file a petition.
Proceed. This is the problem with you tear harvester types, you see everything as tears. What exactly is it that you think would make me "abloobloobloo"? Having an pinion that there are game imbalances is not tears. Hell, code was built from james complaining about how he though miner buffs made them unbalanced, so if we're going by the rule "complaint are tears" code is the longest running crying session to date.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#517 - 2016-09-16 19:39:37 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
We aren't here to play world of tanks. We aren't here to play a game with a matchmaker. We are here for the PvP and the sandbox.
Machmakers aren't a necessity for balance, also, when you say PvP, do you mean in the broader sense of competition or do you think this game solely exists to allow people to shoot each other?

Teckos Pech wrote:
As for ganks, you have nothing to support your claim. And before you say neither do I, I already admitted that.
I have common sense on my side. It's provable that most ships ganked in highsec are pilotable by 8 day old players, that new players tart and generally stay for a time in highsec, and it's also a given that experienced players know how to avoid ganks, ergo the most likely players to be ganked in highsec are newbies.

Teckos Pech wrote:
And lastly a company and developers being honest and fair with their customers is usually a better business plan that the opposite. Of course they are fee to be misleading and unfair, but that can back fire.
You know that thing you were saying about proof... Lol. Let's face it, Rockstar are rolling around in money, the tears from a bunch of griefers being banned is far outweighed by the millions of people handing over fistfuls of money for the game. If they were misleading the important part of their playerbase it would be a problem, but they aren't.

Teckos Pech wrote:
Edit: As for reward, you keep forgetting that it takes both sides to create that reward. The veterans with their alts and cheap ships and the moron who put 8 billion ISK worth of cargo in his ship and flew it, without an escort/scout, through Uedama.
But that's still not risk/reward. The gankers risk basically nothing and get rewarded. There's no need to take a risk because rewards are so easily collected. It's like wardec groups, nothing actually encourages wardec groups to take fair fights because they'll lose isk and not gain much out of it, so they farm hundreds of small corps that they know can't fight back and reap the rewards. I'm certainly not saying the idiot in the freighter shouldn't lose it to the opportunistic pirates, but ganking has been refined to the point that there's no challenge in it.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Galaxy Duck
Galaxy Farm Carebear Repurposing
#518 - 2016-09-16 20:21:34 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
I'm never ablooblooblooing...


Lmao dude, you're ALWAYS ablooblooing. If there's one thing you do, it's log onto EVE-O and cry. It's even funnier because when someone points it out, you'll ALWAYS deny it, every time.

You're a bleeding heart for the poor weaklings who can't HTFU, so they will not be following us to the top.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#519 - 2016-09-16 20:41:48 UTC
Galaxy Duck wrote:
Lmao dude, you're ALWAYS ablooblooing. If there's one thing you do, it's log onto EVE-O and cry. It's even funnier because when someone points it out, you'll ALWAYS deny it, every time.

You're a bleeding heart for the poor weaklings who can't HTFU, so they will not be following us to the top.
Lol, if you need to believe that to feel better, go ahead. I'll stick with reality. As it goes I'm pretty happy with the direction CCP are taking the game, so I'm honestly not sure what I would be crying about. Funny to see you so desparate to think someone else is upset though, especially considering the topic of the thread ^_^

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Bing Bangboom
DAMAG Safety Commission
#520 - 2016-09-16 20:58:00 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
But that's still not risk/reward. The gankers risk basically nothing and get rewarded. There's no need to take a risk because rewards are so easily collected. It's like wardec groups, nothing actually encourages wardec groups to take fair fights because they'll lose isk and not gain much out of it, so they farm hundreds of small corps that they know can't fight back and reap the rewards. I'm certainly not saying the idiot in the freighter shouldn't lose it to the opportunistic pirates, but ganking has been refined to the point that there's no challenge in it.


I think what you are seeing is wardeccers and ganking organizations responding to the changes that CCP has instituted. My experience leads me to believe that what you are describing is a refinement of ability to perform our mission. We got better and better at what we do, nullifying any efforts to thwart us but still, as a reaction to those efforts. This is opposed to your comments which indicate that we found an easy way to play Eve and are stuck in our no-risk ways.

In other words it probably does look easy to someone on the receiving end. Putting aside the Code always wins (which those guys do but I famously don't) what you are seeing is a well organized, well funded and well motivated group working together to achieve a goal against players who habitually reject making any effort beyond their own self interest. Saying we only want to kill new players as they are easy targets overlooks the fact that many highsec players, particularly miners, remain easy targets even after years of game play, by choice, as they don't tank, don't respond to stimulus and don't accept reality when it lands 2000m away from their barge and lights them up with Void.

Look at our killboard. We've poured over a trillion ISK into our gank ships. The fact that we have destroyed almost 36 trillion ISK of ships and pods, IN FURTHERING OUR CAUSE, isn't because its easy. Its because we are good at it. Good at inspiring people to follow James, good at performing the tasks of bumping, ganking, awoxing, wardeccing, etc and good at raising the funds such an ambitious goal requires. And yes, good at coming onto the various forums including our own and spreading the word of what we believe in and fight for.

The really great thing of course is that the New Order always wins. Even fellows like you who come on and present your neat package of "risk-adverse noob killers who are ruining Eve and CCP will get rid of you someday" have not slowed us down one bit in four years and we both know it. Every confident prediction of our eminent demise has been met with an increase in miner and freighter destruction.

Nobody knows how far we can go. Well, except James 315 as he has had this all planned out from the start.

Highsec is worth fighting for.

By choosing to mine in New Order systems, highsec miners have agreed to follow the New Halaima Code of Conduct.  www.minerbumping.com