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Smaller freighter, a welcome addition

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Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2016-09-09 21:28:04 UTC
Vincent Pelletier wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
Vincent Pelletier wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
Orca IS the option you're looking for OP.


The Orca is a bad hauler for all the reasons mentioned earlier. It's cargo isn't useable when go for for a cargo fit, it's cargo is **** if you go for a tank fit and some sort of hybrid is bad at either and ultimately too close to a DST cargo wise to make it worth while.



Then you're doing it wrong, as indicated by evidence typed by yourself throughout this thread.


Feel free to show us an orca that:

a) has decent enough cargo to make it truly worthwhile compared to a 60-65k DST, taking into account a DST's mwd/cloak align speed and warp speed

b) has enough EHP to not be an automatic target would it have, say, 500 mil cargo onboard.




Anshar
Rhea
Ark
Nomad

+Cyno character in Ignoitton. Done


Wasn't that hard.


Really it is not difficult to fit an orca to have 90k ballpark cargo, enough EHP to be reasonably safe, and a 10s warp.


If you need to be spoonfed though, I will take the time out of my day to fly my orca over to my other orca and get the fit off it.....







The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
#62 - 2016-09-09 21:52:00 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
Vincent Pelletier wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
Vincent Pelletier wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
Orca IS the option you're looking for OP.


The Orca is a bad hauler for all the reasons mentioned earlier. It's cargo isn't useable when go for for a cargo fit, it's cargo is **** if you go for a tank fit and some sort of hybrid is bad at either and ultimately too close to a DST cargo wise to make it worth while.



Then you're doing it wrong, as indicated by evidence typed by yourself throughout this thread.


Feel free to show us an orca that:

a) has decent enough cargo to make it truly worthwhile compared to a 60-65k DST, taking into account a DST's mwd/cloak align speed and warp speed

b) has enough EHP to not be an automatic target would it have, say, 500 mil cargo onboard.




Anshar
Rhea
Ark
Nomad

+Cyno character in Ignoitton. Done


Wasn't that hard.


Really it is not difficult to fit an orca to have 90k ballpark cargo, enough EHP to be reasonably safe, and a 10s warp.


If you need to be spoonfed though, I will take the time out of my day to fly my orca over to my other orca and get the fit off it.....


a) 90k is a ****** amount of cargo
b) you DO realise that 90k cargo with an orca's ****** warp speed means it's not a worthwhile upgrade to a DST

c) would you use, say, a Widow to do lvl 4 missions?
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2016-09-09 22:08:08 UTC
Vincent Pelletier wrote:

a) 90k is a ****** amount of cargo
b) you DO realise that 90k cargo with an orca's ****** warp speed means it's not a worthwhile upgrade to a DST

c) would you use, say, a Widow to do lvl 4 missions?



Then use a JF. Really not that hard. Or keep using the DST.


What I DO realize is there are other tools that do this. Or you can fit cargo and have your corp bro web you into warp..... or you can do the same with a freighter.... or you and your bro can use two DST's.... or.... or..... or.... or..... or....


It really does go on and on and on.

The thing YOU are not realizing is you're playing a multiplayer game as a single player. You're gonna have problems. The tools exist. Use a jump freighter. 350k cargo or so on a Rhea at Level 4. Not wanting to pay the price tag for the huge amount of flexibility a JF gives you? Well then use conventional means.




In regards to the widow, if it's the right tool for the job, then yeah, go for it. Not my first choice, but hey, whatever goats your float. It CAN do the job.





The definitive, /thread point, is there are already plenty of tools that do this, and ways to accomplish it. You're asking for a ship that's role is already overly covered.

Orca
Freighter/web buddy/alt
Multiple trips
JF
Multiple bro's
Red Frog
Compression(where applicable)
Yet more....


Most of them just require a bit of time and effort, or isk. A new ship that does the same thing all these do is not needed.


'CCP I don't want to invest in my game play or branch out and play the game in a multiplayer fashion.'


-1


Good Luck.



The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
#64 - 2016-09-09 22:14:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Pelletier
Kenrailae wrote:
Vincent Pelletier wrote:

a) 90k is a ****** amount of cargo
b) you DO realise that 90k cargo with an orca's ****** warp speed means it's not a worthwhile upgrade to a DST

c) would you use, say, a Widow to do lvl 4 missions?
Then use a JF. Really not that hard. Or keep using the DST.



I'll ask again, would you use a widow instead of a raven to do lvl 4 missions?
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2016-09-09 22:22:04 UTC
Vincent Pelletier wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
Vincent Pelletier wrote:

a) 90k is a ****** amount of cargo
b) you DO realise that 90k cargo with an orca's ****** warp speed means it's not a worthwhile upgrade to a DST

c) would you use, say, a Widow to do lvl 4 missions?
Then use a JF. Really not that hard. Or keep using the DST.



I'll ask again, would you use a widow instead of a raven to do lvl 4 missions?



I'll repeat myself, seeing as reading seems to be a difficult thing for you:



Quote:
In regards to the widow, if it's the right tool for the job, then yeah, go for it. Not my first choice, but hey, whatever goats your float. It CAN do the job.




If it's the tool for that job, then yes, or if it were just what I wanted to use, then yes. I ran 4's in an AC/AB myrm for a while several years ago because I was bored to crap with all my other ships. Personally, I can't stand caldari. I wouldn't use either. I'm also not a poor and can afford to buy a real ship like a Golem or Vargur. Just like I can afford to and realize the value in having 3 JF's, 2 sitting in hangars not being used routinely at the moment because their owners are in corps I would prefer not to get proxy war decced by hub campers, and because the Orca can do everything they can do, with 2 trips. Shield and missiles.... bleck. At least Minmatar I can get away with AC's. I'm a Gallente bro at heart. So I use a Kronos or Vargur, because Vargur is awesome and Police Kronos is da bomb diggity.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
#66 - 2016-09-09 22:40:19 UTC
So lets recap:

Just like most people who spout unfounded nonsense using zero facts, you hadn't ACTUALLY considered an actual realistic fit for the Orca and hadn't ACTUALLY compared its cargo/ehp/cost/warp speed to a DST. Instead you just went "use Orca lol". It's only now that you realise that for people who can do maths and understand the game it's really not a logical hauler to use.

You just admitted that using a ship that isn't the right tool for the job, while costing way more than something that does make sense for that scenario, is illogical to use. Yet you've been using the "use JF lol".


There's is nothing overpowered, risk averse or carebear about asking for a decent in between option around 250k cargo that doesn't cost a bullshit amount of isk.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#67 - 2016-09-10 01:25:23 UTC
Vincent Pelletier wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
Vincent Pelletier wrote:

a) 90k is a ****** amount of cargo
b) you DO realise that 90k cargo with an orca's ****** warp speed means it's not a worthwhile upgrade to a DST

c) would you use, say, a Widow to do lvl 4 missions?
Then use a JF. Really not that hard. Or keep using the DST.



I'll ask again, would you use a widow instead of a raven to do lvl 4 missions?


I have used a Widow to run Level 4 missions (and tons of DED sites) in 0.0 space. It worked really well. I never died in gate camps or even came close to being caught.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#68 - 2016-09-10 05:50:53 UTC
There is another solution... which would require less work than introducing a new ship: add fitting options to freighters (example: shieldtank the matari/caldari, armour tank amarr and gallente).

Then, with sufficient lowslots, the Fenrir (minnies gotta go fast ...) could hold the least cargo but have the fastest align.

Finish it off by adding 3 rigs (hyperspatial velocity) and you'd be able to build your own "fast freighter" possibly going as low as 150-180k cargospace but fast enough and with a MWD.

Never knew why freighters had to be such oddballs in the first place, but fitting slots and modules already exist. It might very well be the most elegant solution, and it'd diversify the ones we have. Possibly even giving sufficient reason to crosstrain.
Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
#69 - 2016-09-10 06:29:04 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Vincent Pelletier wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
Vincent Pelletier wrote:

a) 90k is a ****** amount of cargo
b) you DO realise that 90k cargo with an orca's ****** warp speed means it's not a worthwhile upgrade to a DST

c) would you use, say, a Widow to do lvl 4 missions?
Then use a JF. Really not that hard. Or keep using the DST.



I'll ask again, would you use a widow instead of a raven to do lvl 4 missions?


I have used a Widow to run Level 4 missions (and tons of DED sites) in 0.0 space. It worked really well. I never died in gate camps or even came close to being caught.


Would you use one in high sec?
Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
#70 - 2016-09-10 06:42:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Pelletier
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
There is another solution... which would require less work than introducing a new ship: add fitting options to freighters (example: shieldtank the matari/caldari, armour tank amarr and gallente).

Then, with sufficient lowslots, the Fenrir (minnies gotta go fast ...) could hold the least cargo but have the fastest align.

Finish it off by adding 3 rigs (hyperspatial velocity) and you'd be able to build your own "fast freighter" possibly going as low as 150-180k cargospace but fast enough and with a MWD.

Never knew why freighters had to be such oddballs in the first place, but fitting slots and modules already exist. It might very well be the most elegant solution, and it'd diversify the ones we have. Possibly even giving sufficient reason to crosstrain.


Fitting itself doesn't really make much sense because even a ship like the Charon has way more structure than it has shield, together with the now passive DC (talk about something overpowered and catering to the afk) that means that bulkheads will always be the way to go and shield would simply add extra EHP by using invuls. If you'd allow for capital shield extenders that would get silly EHP wise, Together with rigs that would result in ships with so much EHP that would be way too OP.

Rigs on their own could work just fine however, you get the whole speed vs armour and structure vs cargo choices. The fact that you have to make choices makes them far more balanced than being allowed to add invuls and CSE.



Now that I thought about it for a bit: Giving freighters rig slots is probably the most elegant, logical and easy solution.
Zerzzes Markarian
McCloud and Markarian Trade and Logistics Corp.
#71 - 2016-09-10 06:49:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Zerzzes Markarian
I'm staring to believe that this guy is just a troll.

Again: You wany a hauler that has smaller cargohold, 20% more agility, and 30% more EHP. Then use 2xReinforced Bulkhead II and 1xInertial Stabilizers II and you have what you want.

Or do you really want a hauler that is 50% more agile and has 100% more EHP? `Like a freighter fitted as obove with 3 more low slots? Guess what, I want a interdiction nullified covert ops Titan. Its not gonna happen.

sure, CCP could add rigs, but this would come at the price or reduced cargo, reduced agility, and reduced EHP. Just like when they introduced the fitting options dor freighters.
Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
#72 - 2016-09-10 07:12:28 UTC
Zerzzes Markarian wrote:
I'm staring to believe that this guy is just a troll.

Again: You wany a hauler that has smaller cargohold, 20% more agility, and 30% more EHP. Then use 2xReinforced Bulkhead II and 1xInertial Stabilizers II and you have what you want.

Or do you really want a hauler that is 50% more agile and has 100% more EHP? `Like a freighter fitted as obove with 3 more low slots? Guess what, I want a interdiction nullified covert ops Titan. Its not gonna happen.


Nice numbers you made up there, it's never going to be 50% or 100%. Also given how bulkhead freighters still get ganked with pretty much zero cargo in them I'd say that a bit more EHP (as said, 30-40%) isn't exactly overpowered.
Aplysia Vejun
Children of Agasul
#73 - 2016-09-10 07:17:38 UTC
It's really amusing how people cannot see the big gap between a freighter and an industrial.
No, an orca is not a dedicated transport ship and the jf are for low/null.
He jusr wants something in between.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#74 - 2016-09-10 07:26:29 UTC
Vincent Pelletier wrote:


Nice numbers you made up there, it's never going to be 50% or 100%. Also given how bulkhead freighters still get ganked with pretty much zero cargo in them I'd say that a bit more EHP (as said, 30-40%) isn't exactly overpowered.



i'm starting to think you really believe EHP discourages ganking in a significant way...

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Lugh Crow-Slave
#75 - 2016-09-10 07:27:16 UTC
Aplysia Vejun wrote:
It's really amusing how people cannot see the big gap between a freighter and an industrial.
No, an orca is not a dedicated transport ship and the jf are for low/null.
He jusr wants something in between.



so why doesn't the orca work? because it does things in addition to hauling?

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
#76 - 2016-09-10 07:35:59 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Aplysia Vejun wrote:
It's really amusing how people cannot see the big gap between a freighter and an industrial.
No, an orca is not a dedicated transport ship and the jf are for low/null.
He jusr wants something in between.



so why doesn't the orca work? because it does things in addition to hauling?


Jesus H christ, how ******** are you.

For the 17 billionth time, for the clowns who can't do maths: with a realistic fitting its cargo hold isn't exactly stellar compared to a much cheaper, much faster DST. And even IF you'd go for max cargo, which is dumb as fck, it's still not exactly brilliant.
Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
#77 - 2016-09-10 07:38:48 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Vincent Pelletier wrote:


Nice numbers you made up there, it's never going to be 50% or 100%. Also given how bulkhead freighters still get ganked with pretty much zero cargo in them I'd say that a bit more EHP (as said, 30-40%) isn't exactly overpowered.



i'm starting to think you really believe EHP discourages ganking in a significant way...


It helps a bit. The reason I chose this idea is because having a super DST would be overpowered and would make the actual DST useless. AS I EXPLAINED.

But hey, if it doesn't help as you put it then why are you against it?
Lugh Crow-Slave
#78 - 2016-09-10 07:42:18 UTC
Vincent Pelletier wrote:

But hey, if it doesn't help as you put it then why are you against it?



because ccps time could be better spent on another ship that actually fills an empty niche rather than a ship that is just a slightly bigger orca w/o boosts

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
#79 - 2016-09-10 07:43:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Pelletier
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Vincent Pelletier wrote:

But hey, if it doesn't help as you put it then why are you against it?



because ccps time could be better spent on another ship that actually fills an empty niche rather than a ship that is just a slightly bigger orca w/o boosts


Ah yes, the "it would be better for the game" logic, when ppl actually mean "it's in my own personal interest".


p.s. I like how you craftily evaded the other comments.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#80 - 2016-09-10 07:46:40 UTC
huh? i would use the hell out of this ship i just don't see how its worth it. you basicly want something with a slightly larger cargo than a max cargo orca and higher tank than a max tanked orca. what exactly is the reason not to use this ship? why would i use a DST if this thing out carries out tanks and is only a little slower to align

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble