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Smaller freighter, a welcome addition

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Elenahina
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2016-09-08 18:14:17 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Vincent Pelletier wrote:
slower bigger one that's an easier gank target.



oh this guy just doesn't know how hauling works at least the thread is understandable now


you do understand a DST flown by any decent pilot is one of the hardest things to gank in HS right?


I'd argue the Blockade runners are harder to catch, but easier to kill, so it may be a toss up.

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno
Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
#42 - 2016-09-08 18:15:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Pelletier
an Orca fitted to haul 140k cargo has 80K EHP and not enough agility to do cloak/MWD properly, so it has to survive on EHP. 140k cargo vs 80k EHP makes it an obvious target

An orca that has enough tank to not directly be an obvious gank target can only haul 70k cargo, it still can't do mwd/cloak properly and you might as well use a DST instead.

This magical combination of cargo AND EHP doesn't exist for the Orca. And even if, it's only 140k max if you'd ever fit that way.


A JF fit for bulkheads gets.... /drumroll 120k cargo. Making it a silly alternative for a DST. while still costing 8 bil.


See, this is the problem. lots of people have opinions (mostly coloured by personal interest) but don't actually know facts and just spout nonsense.
Elenahina
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2016-09-08 18:25:33 UTC
Vincent Pelletier wrote:

An orca that has enough tank to not directly be an obvious gank target can only haul 70k cargo


This is, quite frankly, bullshit, as I already pointed out.

Vincent Pelletier wrote:

See, this is the problem. lots of people have opinions (mostly coloured by personal interest) but don't actually know facts and just spout nonsense.


Including you.

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno
Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
#44 - 2016-09-08 18:28:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Pelletier
Elenahina wrote:
Vincent Pelletier wrote:

An orca that has enough tank to not directly be an obvious gank target can only haul 70k cargo


This is, quite frankly, bullshit, as I already pointed out.

Vincent Pelletier wrote:

See, this is the problem. lots of people have opinions (mostly coloured by personal interest) but don't actually know facts and just spout nonsense.


Including you.


Orca with DC and bulkheads gets ~29k cargo, add to that 40k from the hangar and presto 69K.

You were saying?
Elenahina
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2016-09-08 18:43:17 UTC
[Orca, [TEST] HS Hauler]

Damage Control II
Expanded Cargohold II

Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field II
Large Shield Extender II

[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]

Large Cargohold Optimization II
Large Transverse Bulkhead II
Large Transverse Bulkhead II

240k EHP, 95k generic cargo. Aligns roughly the same as a JF with the right implants.

is what I was saying.

Feel free to put festival launchers in the high slots or something.

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno
Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
#46 - 2016-09-08 18:47:54 UTC
So less EHP than a stock freighter, which is already a hilarious gank target even when empty. No cloak/mwd means it has to survive on that EHP while hauling 140k cargo. So, what's your CODE alt's name?


And 95k cargo, making it ~50% better than a DST, rendering it useless because a DST CAN do cloak/mwd just fine while warping faster.


As said: the orca is not a logical hauler for people who can actually do math.
Elenahina
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2016-09-08 18:50:40 UTC
Vincent Pelletier wrote:
So less EHP than a stock freighter, which is already a hilarious gank target even when empty. No cloak/mwd means it has to survive on that EHP while hauling 140k cargo. So, what's your CODE alt's name?


And 95k cargo, making it ~50% better than a DST, rendering it useless because a DST CAN do cloak/mwd just fine while warping faster.


As said: the orca is not a logical hauler for people who can actually do math.


So you basically want a ship that can do everything - haul a lot and not get caught, at a price that's sub 700 million.

Gee, I want a little pink pony and a mermaid to feed me grapes, but that's not likely to happen either.

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno
Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
#48 - 2016-09-08 18:58:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Pelletier
Elenahina wrote:
Vincent Pelletier wrote:
So less EHP than a stock freighter, which is already a hilarious gank target even when empty. No cloak/mwd means it has to survive on that EHP while hauling 140k cargo. So, what's your CODE alt's name?


And 95k cargo, making it ~50% better than a DST, rendering it useless because a DST CAN do cloak/mwd just fine while warping faster.


As said: the orca is not a logical hauler for people who can actually do math.


So you basically want a ship that can do everything - haul a lot and not get caught, at a price that's sub 700 million.

Gee, I want a little pink pony and a mermaid to feed me grapes, but that's not likely to happen either.


No, not at all.

What I want is a ship that's IN BETWEEN ~100k cargo and 845k cargo while not costing a bullshit amount of money because that in and of itself makes it a target. And preferably one that would be faster than a freighter.

I'd happily have it not be a freighter because those tend to be used afk but if you give a ship with normal fittings ~250k cargo that renders DST pretty much useless. With this idea DST still have a use as those can use cloak/mwd etc, normal freighters still have a use and JF also still have a use.

It's really not that difficult to understand.

There is no decent hauler in the 200-250k cargo bracket and the one ship that has that sort of cargo is, depending on fit, either is a lol target or can only haul 120k because of bulkheads, while costing 8 bil.



This whole thing about "shoulda used the jump drive" is no different from telling a Raven pilot who got killed in HS "well, if you had used a Widow this wouldn't have happened". It's nonsense logic.
Faylee Freir
Abusing Game Mechanics
#49 - 2016-09-08 22:58:37 UTC
Vincent Pelletier wrote:
Elenahina wrote:
Vincent Pelletier wrote:
So less EHP than a stock freighter, which is already a hilarious gank target even when empty. No cloak/mwd means it has to survive on that EHP while hauling 140k cargo. So, what's your CODE alt's name?


And 95k cargo, making it ~50% better than a DST, rendering it useless because a DST CAN do cloak/mwd just fine while warping faster.


As said: the orca is not a logical hauler for people who can actually do math.


So you basically want a ship that can do everything - haul a lot and not get caught, at a price that's sub 700 million.

Gee, I want a little pink pony and a mermaid to feed me grapes, but that's not likely to happen either.


No, not at all.

What I want is a ship that's IN BETWEEN ~100k cargo and 845k cargo while not costing a bullshit amount of money because that in and of itself makes it a target. And preferably one that would be faster than a freighter.

I'd happily have it not be a freighter because those tend to be used afk but if you give a ship with normal fittings ~250k cargo that renders DST pretty much useless. With this idea DST still have a use as those can use cloak/mwd etc, normal freighters still have a use and JF also still have a use.

It's really not that difficult to understand.

There is no decent hauler in the 200-250k cargo bracket and the one ship that has that sort of cargo is, depending on fit, either is a lol target or can only haul 120k because of bulkheads, while costing 8 bil.



This whole thing about "shoulda used the jump drive" is no different from telling a Raven pilot who got killed in HS "well, if you had used a Widow this wouldn't have happened". It's nonsense logic.

You fail to understand that yes, a Jump Freighter makes for a nice a desired killmail (when piloted in a stupid or lazy manner) but they are literally the safest form of hauling large valuable cargo in lowsec, nullsec, and highsec. Sure its expensive but thats justified through how good of a ship class it is. Having exot cynos,for your jump freighter isnt nonsense logic... Its called being prepared. Youbare just lazy and instead of taking responsibility upon yourself to make sure you mitigate risks, you want a newer and safer toy to use so you can be lazy.

The current meta forces you to make decisions, and thats the way it ought to be. You **** to haul 200-250? So use a bulkheaded or istabbed freighter with mid-grade nomads, a good webber, and a scout. Whats wrong with that? You want to warp faster? Use a freighter with bulkheads and istabs with a set of high-grade ascendancys, a proper webber, and a scout.

Theres no need for a new ship class because all your concerns can be addressed through proper fitting and proper support of your captial class hauling ship.

HTFU
Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
#50 - 2016-09-08 23:10:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Pelletier
So how many accounts do you require to fly your ship through high sec during peace time? One you say, you just told me that for me it requires at least 3 and in case of a JF 4. What a weird logic.

I'm fully aware of how ganking works and have no problem with it as such, it's just that a freighter is too slow, too easy a target with a cargo capacity we'll never actually use, while a DST is too small. I want something in between that doesn't cost 8 bil and requires 4 accounts to not get ganked the first time you undock.

You just like juicy JF targets and will use any sort of logic to keep it that way.
Faylee Freir
Abusing Game Mechanics
#51 - 2016-09-08 23:31:30 UTC
Vincent Pelletier wrote:
So how many accounts do you require to fly your ship through high sec during peace time? One you say, you just told me that for me it requires at least 3 and in case of a JF 4. What a weird logic.

I'm fully aware of how ganking works and have no problem with it as such, it's just that a freighter is too slow and easy a target while a DST is too small. You just like juicy JF targets and will use any sort of logic to keep it that way.


Freighters and Jump Freighters are capital class ships. They are expensive, can haul arough high volume loads, and are often overstuffed with valuable cargo. We see all thr time, people getting killed because they make themselves a target. Theres nothing wrong with these ships, the problem lies in the mentality of the pilot. Capital class ships need proper support, and thinking otherwise is just insane. Eve is a social game by nature, so being able to rely of friends or allies to handle capitals is important. The good thing is that if youre socially unable to make friends or allies, then you are welcome to be you own friend in the form of alt accounts.

If you are unable to handle the responsibilities of owning and using these ships, then youre better off paying people that are more properly suited to use them. This is eve. You arent entitled to having everything simple and easy. Youre right that i do enjoy,killing Jump Freighters, but i go through great lengths to do so. What lengths do you go through to ensure you fly freighters safely and responsibly through hisec?

HTFU
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#52 - 2016-09-09 02:17:38 UTC
If only this game was market driven ... there's a demand for a ship. An enterprising entity (thukker?) would surely provide. Losing tank is not an option and you know it -- otherwise the likes of you wouldn't call haulers flat out stupid in every other thread.

So here is a guy who doesn't want to overload his ship ISK wise, sees a giant void in his cargohold, and thinks to himself how practical it would be to have a suitable vessel that would fly pretty much like an Orca, but geared towards hauling rather than mining support.

Could be an Orca 'fleet issue' for all I care.

I too drive a roadtrain when I'm not in my car. To move a washing machine. Because a van would totally break the game.

There is, however, another option: have Expanded Cargohold mods influence both regular and fleet hangar cargoholds. Then we can both get what we want: you get possibly less tanky DSTs, we get the choice to repurpose our DST as we see fit. How does that sound? Better?
Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
#53 - 2016-09-09 04:16:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Pelletier
Faylee Freir wrote:
and are often overstuffed with valuable cargo. We see all thr time, people getting killed because they make themselves a target.


You mean empty ones because those get ganked quite regularly, or ones with only 20% of their cargo used because anything more would put them in the "lol you're going to die" category.

That JF kill I linked earlier, he had 100 mil cargo on board. Explain to us this whole "had so much value on board it made himself a target" concept.




Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
I too drive a roadtrain when I'm not in my car. To move a washing machine. Because a van would totally break the game.


Exactly. I'm looking for an in between option that will be faster than a normal freighter but, obviously, slower than a DST that has a valid EHP/price point so it's not an automatic gank target with a few 100 mil on board.
Faylee Freir
Abusing Game Mechanics
#54 - 2016-09-09 17:41:45 UTC
Vincent Pelletier wrote:
Faylee Freir wrote:
and are often overstuffed with valuable cargo. We see all thr time, people getting killed because they make themselves a target.


You mean empty ones because those get ganked quite regularly, or ones with only 20% of their cargo used because anything more would put them in the "lol you're going to die" category.

That JF kill I linked earlier, he had 100 mil cargo on board. Explain to us this whole "had so much value on board it made himself a target" concept.




Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
I too drive a roadtrain when I'm not in my car. To move a washing machine. Because a van would totally break the game.


Exactly. I'm looking for an in between option that will be faster than a normal freighter but, obviously, slower than a DST that has a valid EHP/price point so it's not an automatic gank target with a few 100 mil on board.

Tell me, how many empty freighters and jump freighters get *ganked*. Yeah I know it happens but empty freighters and jump freighters are viable targets. You don't have to be motivated by how much could potentially drop from the wreck in order to gank one of these, as the people that make these ships make isk when one gets blown up and they come back to buy another. Then you have to look at how ganking groups target enemy supply lines by keeping scouts for freighters and jump freighters of their enemies.

Sometimes you're a target because of the ship you fly and how vulnerable you make yourself by not flying with proper support. The problem with your logic is that everything is a gank target, no matter what it is. This is eve. Deal with it.

HTFU
Zerzzes Markarian
McCloud and Markarian Trade and Logistics Corp.
#55 - 2016-09-09 20:49:55 UTC
Are you sure that your post didn't get stuck in a time-loop or something. It sounds like your request comes from a time before they changed the freighters. The thing you're looking for is called a freighter with a proper fit.

Vincent Pelletier wrote:

Stats:
- around 250k m³
Well, you get even more for free.
Quote:

- increased EHP compared to a normal freighter (so it trades cargo space for EHP)
Fit Bulkheads II to a freighter and you get exactly this.
Quote:

- slightly more agile and faster than a normal freighter

Fit Inertial Stabs II and you will get exactly this
Quote:

- one for each race
- only low slots just like a freighter
- uses same skills as a freighter

Again: Use a Freighter.
Quote:

-added -
- 20% increase in agility and speed compared to a normal freighter. Warp speed 2 AU/s
- 30-40% increase in EHP compared to normal freighter
Fit one Inert Stab and two bulkheads. If you want more agility and less tank fit two intert stabs. Only the warp speed is lower.

20% more agility will not safe you from a gank. 30-40% more EHP will not safe you from a gank in most cases.

Disclaimer: I'm a Freighter and JF pilot myself, and I think gankers are the worst scumbags of all New Eden. But you have to deal with it like other people do.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2016-09-09 21:07:30 UTC
Between jump freighters, DST's, and Orca's, the ONLY time I've ever had any want of a freighter was when presented with High volume, low value stuff like stacks of Ore. In those cases, the situation was resolved by compressing and using the orca.


Orca IS the option you're looking for OP. The vast majority of other scenarios can be handled by a JF or DST. The few rare instances you actually need a freighter.... well guess what... you have a freighter. There is 0 need for another ship in this line of work except in that new ships are shiny and have that lovely new ship smell.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
#57 - 2016-09-09 21:10:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Pelletier
Zerzzes Markarian wrote:
Are you sure that your post didn't get stuck in a time-loop or something. It sounds like your request comes from a time before they changed the freighters. The thing you're looking for is called a freighter with a proper fit.



As explained a thousand times now, I don't want more room "for free" because it's not free, it's balanced against other stats. And if you get a new ship that focusses more/better on being an intermediate hauler, as stated before, and THEN you add the different mods to it you can specialise it further.
Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
#58 - 2016-09-09 21:12:27 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
Orca IS the option you're looking for OP.


The Orca is a bad hauler for all the reasons mentioned earlier. It's cargo isn't useable when go for for a cargo fit, it's cargo is **** if you go for a tank fit and some sort of hybrid is bad at either and ultimately too close to a DST cargo wise to make it worth while.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2016-09-09 21:14:44 UTC
Vincent Pelletier wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
Orca IS the option you're looking for OP.


The Orca is a bad hauler for all the reasons mentioned earlier. It's cargo isn't useable when go for for a cargo fit, it's cargo is **** if you go for a tank fit and some sort of hybrid is bad at either and ultimately too close to a DST cargo wise to make it worth while.



Then you're doing it wrong, as indicated by evidence typed by yourself throughout this thread.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
#60 - 2016-09-09 21:18:27 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
Vincent Pelletier wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
Orca IS the option you're looking for OP.


The Orca is a bad hauler for all the reasons mentioned earlier. It's cargo isn't useable when go for for a cargo fit, it's cargo is **** if you go for a tank fit and some sort of hybrid is bad at either and ultimately too close to a DST cargo wise to make it worth while.



Then you're doing it wrong, as indicated by evidence typed by yourself throughout this thread.


Feel free to show us an orca that:

a) has decent enough cargo to make it truly worthwhile compared to a 60-65k DST, taking into account a DST's mwd/cloak align speed and warp speed

b) has enough EHP to not be an automatic target would it have, say, 500 mil cargo onboard.