Intergalactic Summit

It's the same thing as when Makoto was calling me Provist, or madwoman, or flying ship in a situation where I was in a different ship. These are sort of propaganda still, targeted against Caldari State, just very weak, built on his (or Makoto's in my example) delusions.

Or, really bad propaganda.

No, just rambling. Poor guy isn't even coherent. Calling what he does propaganda would be like calling my ex's tuna casserole food.... it may have been at one time, but somewhere between the oven and the table it got ruined.

No, I just mean about Priano's statements being propaganda.

Diagnostics Report: OP.

Showing symptoms of delusion, difficulty in communication or keeping thoughts coherent. Appears to have developed an unhealthy obsession for antagonising individuals over the GalNet.

Treatment plan: OP should attend therapy sessions once a week, and set goals to socialise more with outside company to rebuild a support network. Patient should also take care to avoid any clone losses that may further complicate existing mental health issues. If symptoms persist, or worsen, patient is advised to check self in to a rehabilitation centre.

Since the discussion's turned to Caldari Sociology, I'm moving this over here...



From what you describe... no, I very much don't.

As you say: no-one survives on their own. Ever. Nothing you ever use was something only you had a hand in making, unless you literally pick up a rock and use it to smash another rock to make that first tool - and even then, you ate yesterday. You were helped to get to the point of making that first tool.



Why? Why is it shameful to admit that you are no less reliant on others than anyone else? Someone is in need. So what? Help them. Get them back on their feet. They may be the thing that keeps you from suffering similar hardship in the future. And if they cannot, if they are so incapacitated that they cannot recover... then tend to them. The Caldari people may have needed to throw the indigent out into the snow two thousand years ago, but by the Mother, they do not live like that anymore. A nation that can build even one frakking Leviathan needs never treat its people like that.

It definitely doesn't need to enshrine that kind of cruelty and callous disregard for human life as some kind of virtue, or embrace the hypocrisy of claiming it's a kindness.

You and I, we capsuleers, we deal in sums of money and resources that would beggar some planetary civilizations. What's in your 'petty cash' fund is likely the kind of sum entire families never see in their lifetimes. How much could be done, planetisde, with 100 billion ISK? A trillion?

I won't begin to claim that the Matari are always so incredibly good to one another that we've wiped out suffering in the Republic... but at the very least, we don't tell ourselves we're being kind to them. It's taking us time to build up the kind of societal infrastructure the Caldari State has for solving internal problems, but we at least acknowledge that we need to do it.* We're not patting ourselves on the back saying 'we're being so good to those poor bastards by ignoring them'.



And the old? The infirm? Those who suffer horrible accidents through no fault of their own at a young age? In a time and a place where we can harness enough raw power to build hundreds of 16+-kilometer long ships that hurl themselves across the cluster at one hundred fifty-seven thousand times the speed of light, the nation with the literal center of interstellar commerce cannot afford to care for its most vulnerable children?

That is shameful. You sing the praises of community, but the purpose of community, of society itself is to protect the weak. Because at some point in our lives, we were all weak. When you were an infant, how much did you contribute? When an infant is aged and suffering from dementia, no longer able to work, and no longer able to advise are they treated with dignity, or are they simply thrown into the reprocessor to become mulch?



There is a difference between survival in harsh conditions, Ms. Jenneth, and needless callousness for the purposes of saving a few ISK. Even slaver hounds try to tend to their sick as long as they can.


* - And yes, I've heard the joke about how Sebiestor solve social problems. Contrary to popular humor, we have figured out that you can't make a hungry child feel better by duct taping more afterburners to their butts. At least not without some Inertial Stabilizers to let them turn better...

The Caldari see life as a crucible, Ms. Arrendis, burning away weakness. Those who fall by the wayside ... in practice, Caldari megacorporations often demonstrate their gratitude to long-serving, loyal citizens by making sure they're provided for. They even often do so for people who have been dismissed for misdeeds.

As you say, resources aren't so hard to come by that they have to be hoarded, right now.

People who become Nonentities, though ... they're people who have lost every single method of support. They're kicked out of the society because they're seen as straight-up liabilities. Their families are estranged or gone, their friendships tapped out, bridges burned.

It's what I would have been (probably very briefly, before being shot) if the Caldari had decided I didn't qualify for this identity. My status as a person is a little tentative, because of how badly damaged I am.



You're reading kind of a lot into my description of what a kind-hearted Achur might do to help, unasked, in a small way.

In general, both Caldari and Achura have a strong tendency not to involve ourselves deeply in things we don't see as being any of our business. Interfering in other people's lives uninvited isn't seen as benevolent. It's seen as rude and intrusive.

Of course, aiding people you know is another matter completely.

I'm sorry if this offends you.



So, one-- children are a community asset. They are, literally, its future. From what I gather, though, the State's creche program (for raising tube children as well as orphans) wasn't exactly the point of pride it should have been.

Two-- neither Caldari nor Achura discard honored elders, or anyone as long as someone can look after them. Achura also don't normally discard anyone at all (we don't have an equivalent to Nonentities). Even if a certain particularly lonely and infamously abusive person can no longer look after himself, the community (likely in the form of the local monastery) will nevertheless step in. It's seen as an embarrassing and kind of sad situation for the elder, though; that kind of duty normally falls to family.

Depending on circumstances, if an incapacitated or disgraced person chooses to pass from this world, that will often be seen as an honorable and principled act.



The Caldari see the universe as a crucible, a test of strength. They're determined to survive it, come what may.

It's not a test of individual strength, though, but of the strength of a people. Individuals come and go; no one person, in principle, is crucial. Everyone's expendable-- and, eventually, expended.

If you insist on looking after absolutely everyone, the Caldari might argue, it's going to be really hard on you when hard times come. You're not prepared, they might argue, to make the hard choice.

As a Wayist might say, "The Winds care about us, not about you or me."

I don't identify as Caldari, though (even if I am half Civire by blood).

We Achura don't see things quite the same; we see the universe as a reality to be explored, more than a trial to be overcome. We don't throw anybody out. ... But people may choose to go, rather than burden their family or communities, when they have no paths left open for them to walk in this world.

There are innumerable social programs to take care of our children, our future, no matter how neglectful or socially abusive their biological parents are. The success rate for children born into failing families is among the best (if not the best) in the cluster. Besides, with corporate family planning, far fewer children are ever born into broken families than there might be.


It's not all about the bottom line. Strong corporate spirit and culture is essential to maintaining a sturdy future, and those who want none of it are free to do their own thing. If they don't contribute, they probably don't want to contribute. In the case that they do but they can't, there are rehabilitation and reassignment programs so they can find their place. If they still don't want to give their haaksekone, it's not because of us or Caldari society that they "hurt". It's because of them.



Congratulations, I'm glad you feel good about yourself. And the Republic is obviously doing so much better than the State.


Citation needed. It's been working out pretty damn well for us for the past few centuries, thank you.



I literally have *no* clue what you are trying to say here.

I just want to point out the obvious influence that Gallentean philophy has had on Republic culture and thought. That's all.

Anyone is teachable. Children with no support are brought into corporate creche programs and are supported. Children of workers have no need of that support, because their affiliation with a Corporation provides free healthcare and education until they reach the age where it's time to start working.

Children are an investment and despite your ranting, the Caldari know investment.



Without the Navy the Caldari people wouldn't even exist now. We'd have been conquered by the Federation and we'd have disappeared into their obscene cauldron of a society, where everything gets boiled in the same water but comes out tasting of Garoun.

What price independence? What price self-determination? Sometimes hard decisions need to be made and the truth is that there is only a finite amount of resources. So we have the second-highest standard of living in the cluster, ship for ship we have the nastiest armed forces in the cluster, we have the best healthcare and universal education.

The trade-off for that is that if you don't work, you aren't worth anything. That's the trade-off we picked. I'm sorry if you don't like how we funded our ship building programs, but we didn't have the Gallente paying to build our fleet for us, plus a spare fleet to be thrown away on Military Adventurism.



Go sing that song in the refugee camps, Sister Arrendis. They'd probably enjoy a tranche of investment in infrastructure right now.




This sort of thing? This is why most Caldari don't even bother to discuss things with Jaijii. How you can climb your tower of garbage to curse me for my dirty yard is beyond me! Poverty exists in all the Empires - in your Republic it is manifested in the refugee camps and the industrial slums. In the Empire it is the province of the Slaves. In the Federation it is the Omega Cities and the gap between the promise of wealth and reality. In the State it is in the slums, not of our workers, but our non-workers.

So who are the biggest liars? Those who promise freedom and then lock people up in gulags? Those who promise redemption but deliver generational slavery? Those who promise Liberty but deliver personal insignificance? Or is it really those who promise and deliver a fair days pay for a fair days work?

My ranting? Pieter, I'm not the one who said "Medical programs. Infant support. Support of the aged. They all exist in The State - but they exist for those who have earned them." Though of course, I do add the emphasis now. It's a pretty big shift in your position there. Have to wonder if you misspoke the first time, and simply don't want to say 'I should have been clearer', or if you're backpedaling now because you realize your fly's open.




Reread what you replied to. No 'spare fleet', but you'll throw away thousands of ships a week. Tens of thousands. I could go into Gallente space right now and get missions to deal with Caldari forces in their systems - outside the 'sanctioned' war zone, no less. I could kill 20 Ravens today, and I wouldn't be even one pilot in a hundred doing it. So maybe you shouldn't talk about 'a spare fleet to be thrown away on Military Adventurism'. All of the Empires do it, constantly. They throw away millions of lives a day like that



Most of my money does go back to the Republic, Pieter. I just don't make a big splashy announcement about how much wonderful stuff is being done by the foundation I slapped my name all over. I leave the administration of it all to my Clan - they're there. They know what needs doing.



As I said: the Republic needs to do better as well. I'm not castigating you for not having solved all of society's ills, Pieter... I'm taking you and Aria to task for the claim that somehow ignoring the suffering of others, rather than saying 'this is a failing that we need to work on' is rational, and 'a kindness'.



The issue, Pieter, is that those who ignore the needy then claim it's their own bloody fault, and they should be happy their misery's ignored. Have I said any of the Empires is flawless? Faultless? That any of them have gotten it right and fixed all their problems?

What use would there be in me telling loyalists of the Caldari State 'You there! Caldari! The Gallente Federation needs get its head out of its rectum!' or 'The Republic needs to live up to the ideals of freedom and respect for our kin that we give lip service to!'? What would be served? Would it even make sense?

I don't hate or despise the State, despite everything certain militia flakes seem to think. I spent years working in the State. I think it's got tremendous potential, and that to a large degree, it makes great strides toward meeting that potential. That's why I say these things, Pieter. I wouldn't tell Progodlegend or Vince where I think their weaknesses are in a tactical situation. I wouldn't tell any of my enemies where I think they're screwing up. I want them to screw up. I want them to not correct their weakneses.

But I would - and do - tell my friends when I think they need to stop lying to themselves and do better. And I'm more than willing to accept their correction, as well. Have I not said, repeatedly, that the Republic needs to do better as well? Have I not said, in the discussion on the Matari, that we need to respect and trust those among us of the Amarr faith?

Economically, politically, right now the State represents the very best the human race has achieved in terms of productivity, security, and unity. That doesn't mean it can't do better. That doesn't mean clinging to the old mindsets born of harsh necessity isn't now cruel, callous, and heartless. And pointing that out doesn't mean 'OMG, YOU ALL SUCK', even if the arguments get a little heated, from time to time. Frankly, if someone was going to tell me I was screwing up, and didn't care enough for things to get a little heated, I think I'd be insulted.