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EXEFILE Login To Be Discontinued On September 20th

First post First post
Author
Rapid Blue
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#161 - 2016-09-07 22:17:46 UTC
@CCP Falcon

Can we please get a vote against this?

I am against proposition delete #exefile

Please do not delete exe file. I find myself being forced to use exefile to launch the game all the time!
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#162 - 2016-09-07 23:14:11 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
Edit: I would recommend that if you're having specific launcher issues that you post in the Eve Launcher forum or make a support ticket here.

I wouldn't say that there is a specific problem with the launcher, but a general one. Generaly it doesn't bloody work.

"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin

Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#163 - 2016-09-08 01:45:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Tsukino Stareine
What is your definition of general? 99% of what you believe the playerbase is experiencing with no empirical evidence to back it up?


I will reiterate to those crying over ISBoxer: go complain to their devs, I believe you pay for that as well so they should care about your opinions.

Let's be realistic here, all of you who are threatening to quit over this, it's not like you're going to prioritise ISBoxer over eve and just switch to another game solely because they let you use this app, otherwise you would have been long gone when multiplexing was banned.

And I see this a lot: 'CCPlease I am FORCED to use exefile!!!'

Can you be brutally honest that you've tried all possible solutions? Or did you just download the launcher, it didn't work the first time and just went 'meh' and clicked on exefile
Maenth
The Thirteen Provinces
#164 - 2016-09-08 03:30:48 UTC
I will also be inconvenienced once in a while, for those times when the launcher breaks and ... well then I lose out on precious EVE time. I haven't had security issues in the past, so I don't feel the benefit of losing a real and important function/ability for theoretically improved security.

Drones. Drones are a means to an end. An end to the ruthless Caldari 'progress' machines. An end to the barbaric 'redemption' proposed by the Amarr. What they see as chaos shall be my perfect order, merely beyond their comprehension.

Nakaara Adahsa
Deep Void Enterprises
#165 - 2016-09-08 03:47:51 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Nakaara Adahsa wrote:

Actually, client authorization issues can only be logged by CCP if either (1) the launcher actually reaches the server at some point but fails to complete all aspects of the handshaking/authorization, or (2) the launcher tracks login failures, stores the info somewhere, and then sends it later on to the server once a connection can be established at some point. Case #1 is more likely to have been implemented than case #2, but even more likely is that client-side failures never get reported or logged on CCP's server. Otherwise they would know about these problems and have fixed them years ago, right? Because they take their customers seriously, right?

[...stuff deleted for posting length...]

Some of the strongest evidence that most of the launcher problems described on this thread are most probably CCP's fault is that people regard the Exefile game client as the reliable solution. If the issues were with a given player's OS, computer hardware, software confiiguration, etc, it is fairly likely that Exefile would be affected as well. However, the core message on this thread has been "don't take Exefile login away".

There is something different about Exefile: maybe it uses a simpler login process with fewer server-side infrastructure dependencies, maybe it's an older more mature implementation, or maybe it's just been better tested/debugged by CCP. I'd bet the latter is a significant factor at work here. If you were a CCP developer or tester trying to get your work done, would you use the launcher most of the time, or just login directly via the Exefile client? The latter would be more consistent with most software organizations I've worked in.

CCP needs to start taking the launcher issues seriously if they follow through with their Exefile changes, or some/many players will just disappear and take their money elsewhere.


So much stuff you've written makes no sense. You correctly identified that they can only log things if a failed login happened to reach the server or that the launcher records crashes. If either of those things do not happen, how the hell else can we get the data? Player reports.

A vocal minority QQing in a forum thread does not warrant a full scale investigation or turning back on a decision that has been in the making for months.

And you're wrong again CCP can only make their software as compatible with systems that they deem their players use often. They cannot code for contingencies of every individual and cover every eventuality, that's not economically viable. Network is also a huge factor, as people from all over the world play this game their ISPs will of course have different routing, traffic shaping and priorities. Most people will also not know how to configure their routers to optimally use these applications.

There's just so many variables that you have to accept some leakage and the fact you think I'm only talking about OS shows you have very little experience in deploying new software to a large number of machines, something I do every few months and even then it's a pain in the ass with an inventory of NEAR IDENTICAL computers.

Finally I believe the way the launcher works is just entering your information to the existing exefile login screen and just bypasses it instead. If it doesn't work then it's probably something to do with your network or possible software conflict or even malware. It makes no sense that CCP would not test the launcher in multiple common platforms before removing the old one, which is happening now.


Yes, player reports are the only way to identify launcher failures if the software does not log them. These issues have been reported by me and I'm sure many others in the past. CCP has ignored this or else people would not be talking about it now.

The impact of variations in OS, hardware, and network behavior is not as great at the socket communication layer as you imagine. We have been using asynchronous communication for several decades now, and the handshaking for logins is usually not complicated enough to be tripped up by those variables unless it's been poorly implemented, poorly tested, or makes unsafe assumptions.

Network traffic shaping impacts bandwidth and latency for a given connection, as well as the timing and ordering of packets. For a login scenario the socket layer would normally be shielded from the impact by using reasonable timeout values. Traffic shaping is more problematic for streaming applications on non-prioritized connections, but good buffering techniques have tamed this fairly well in many cases.

It's clear that Exefile is handling the login process just fine; I've not seen complaints on this thread for it. The launcher is what is unreliable, so it's doing something different, is poorly implemented, is poorly tested, or is using third-party components that are somehow inferior to Exefile.

If network factors were impacting the launcher in some way that is different what Exefile has to deal with, I'd expect those factors to bleed into the game experience after a successful Exefile launch. Gameplay in EVE has partial similarity to streaming in that high latency or large variations in packet transmission patterns would significantly alter the game experience. I've not seen signs of the latter in the game when the launcher failed to login, but perhaps others have.

These technical arguments are moot, however. If people can't play the game for whatever reason with too much frequency, they'll just eventually leave. It's really that simple.
ACESsiggy
Pandemic Horde Inc.
#166 - 2016-09-08 04:52:05 UTC
I'm guessing this also includes the ability to log out of a character without completely closing the client 😉😊😊

“The open-minded see the truth in different things: the narrow-minded see only the differences.”

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#167 - 2016-09-08 08:31:46 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Goliath
Hey all,

Updated 2nd post with some questions that have been asked by people. Working on getting more answers too.

EDIT: Decided to replicate the post here too (though this will not get updated, but the front page post will)

Some answers to questions posed in the thread:

“The launcher forgets my accounts if I leave it open for too long”
If you are logged in and subsequently enable a VPN connection, the SSO iframe fails and then forgets your accounts. We believe there may also be an issue with time passing or network connectivity loss that we are trying to narrow down to root cause(s).
In the past we have forced the launcher to forget all accounts, for security reasons (and one deployment error). These purges occurred on: 25/11/15, 26/1/16, 8/2/16 and 20/6/16.

“The launcher doesn’t expire logins/refresh tokens”
Accounts management now contains the functionality to delete all SSO tokens - located at https://secure.eveonline.com/LoginHistory.aspx
Changing password manually via account management also automatically does this
The Password Recovery process doesn’t currently have this functionality, but it’s in active development and we aim to deploy it by the end of this week

“The exefile lets me manage my settings profiles and the launcher doesn’t”
The cogwheel next to your account names in launcher login allows you to map separate settings profiles to individual (or multiple) accounts. When/if your accounts are purged from the launcher, these settings profiles are retained on your machine but will need to be remapped to the relevant account once the account has been revalidated in the launcher.

“I use ISBoxer to launch many clients and manage their window positions, especially with borderless windows” / “The Mumble overlay doesn’t work in Windows 10 unless you use exefile”
While ISBoxer and Mumble are unsupported 3rd party software from our perspective, we have reports from players that ISBoxer does also work using the launcher rather than the exefile directly. If there are concerns about 3rd party software functionality or performance with the new system we advise you to raise these concerns with the developers of the software, as is standard practice with all 3rd party software.

“Will third party launchers such as Rapid Light EVE Launcher continue to work?”
While 3rd party launchers may continue to function, we do not support or advocate their use

“The Launcher is vulnerable to DDOS whereas exefile is more resilient”
While the old launcher was subject to load issues and network problems, due to it being hosted in London as a dynamic ASP.NET website, the new launcher website is statically hosted on Amazon S3, with Amazon CloudFront in the front, which should offer additional protection against DDoS attacks.

“Will the old launcher continue to work?”
The old launcher is currently unsupported and will stop working at some point in the near/medium future without any further warning.

“The launcher complains about access rights to its own installation folder”
We believe that most cases can be fixed by running the 'Fix permissions..' in the Shared Cache Settings menu.
However, we have seen at least one case where we have been unable to figure out what is wrong, but in that case the user could not create files/folders manually. So in that case, at least, there is a system level problem. Investigations continue so if this issue occurs for you, and Fix Permissions doesn't solve your problem, please file a bug report with as much detail about your system configuration as you can provide.

“The new launcher throws up certificate issues”
We have an open defect for various certificate issues and hope to roll out a fix soon, but many certificate issues have already been addressed.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

Assia Eko
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#168 - 2016-09-08 10:57:04 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Assia Eko wrote:
Hello,

I used to login through a SSH Tunnel that is installed on my main computer at home for security reasons, and in order to log in from places with unsafes connections (airport, train station, public wifi, work..)

I was using the /server:127.0.0.1 option in the shortlink to exefile.exe.

Will it still be possible to add such option to the executable via the launcher ?

Thank you,

Assia

Just run a VPN from home.



A lot of computers are protected from installing a TAP interface on them (like 99% of the public computers). Although they can run Putty (or any other SSH client) and the game can still be launched from a usb stick.

So, my question is still the same, will it still be possible to add parameters to exefile.exe for it to connect to localhost, for instance.

Thank you,

Assia
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#169 - 2016-09-08 11:29:36 UTC
Assia Eko wrote:
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Assia Eko wrote:
Hello,

I used to login through a SSH Tunnel that is installed on my main computer at home for security reasons, and in order to log in from places with unsafes connections (airport, train station, public wifi, work..)

I was using the /server:127.0.0.1 option in the shortlink to exefile.exe.

Will it still be possible to add such option to the executable via the launcher ?

Thank you,

Assia

Just run a VPN from home.



A lot of computers are protected from installing a TAP interface on them (like 99% of the public computers). Although they can run Putty (or any other SSH client) and the game can still be launched from a usb stick.

So, my question is still the same, will it still be possible to add parameters to exefile.exe for it to connect to localhost, for instance.

Thank you,

Assia


Yes you can add client arguments to the launcher to direct the client to particular servers and such. I cannot verify at this time that your personal setup will work (lack of suitable testing environment) the argument will likely be something like "--client-args=/server:127.0.0.1" placed in the Target field of your launcher shortcut.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

Zmaster BloodLust
BloodLust Enterprises
Amarr Locals Alliance.
#170 - 2016-09-08 11:33:09 UTC
I understand why they are doing this... its to prevent people from loging 10 Alpha clone alts...

But that would be fine if the launcher actualy worked well...
Since the EVE launcher has been released and eventho theres a new one now, it never worked that well!

I have always only used the launcher to update EVE but always used the exefile like in the days before the launchers to launch the game!
And eventho the new launcher has very nice functionalitys like accessing the test servers easely and so on... 70% of the times (and thats a high %) the launcher doesnt work. forcing us again to launch EVE using the exefile!

Please make realy sure the Launcher works at 100% before removing the exefile accessibility... because right now using the exefile is the only way some of us have to login!


Regards, Z
Anke Eyrou
Hades Sisters
#171 - 2016-09-08 11:51:19 UTC
CCP
Can you please ensure that when I put my computer to sleep the launcher does not lose my account information.
I have had to input 3 accounts with passwords 6 times alone in the last 3 days. Its not funny. why should I have to shutdown my PC just so the launcher remembers the account information?

I expect to get this post deleted or locked. So much for freedom of expression.

Drazz Caylen
Team-Pyro Industries
#172 - 2016-09-08 11:57:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Drazz Caylen
Thank you CCP Goliath for the communication and the time to get back to this topic as promised before Smile

CCP Goliath wrote:
1.) “The launcher forgets my accounts if I leave it open for too long”
If you are logged in and subsequently enable a VPN connection, the SSO iframe fails and then forgets your accounts.

2.) In the past we have forced the launcher to forget all accounts, for security reasons (and one deployment error). These purges occurred on: 25/11/15, 26/1/16, 8/2/16 and 20/6/16.

3.) “The exefile lets me manage my settings profiles and the launcher doesn’t”
The cogwheel next to your account names in launcher login allows you to map separate settings profiles to individual (or multiple) accounts.

4.) “Will third party launchers such as Rapid Light EVE Launcher continue to work?”
While 3rd party launchers may continue to function, we do not support or advocate their use

5.) “The Launcher is vulnerable to DDOS whereas exefile is more resilient”
While the old launcher was subject to load issues and network problems... *snip*

6.) “The new launcher throws up certificate issues”
We have an open defect for various certificate issues and hope to roll out a fix soon, but many certificate issues have already been addressed.


1.) Do you think it is fair to assume how everyone who had their accounts forgotten sporadically or frequently is using VPN? Because the few times on Tranquility (and the often times on Singularity) where it kept forgetting my accounts or the stored character name, I have not used a VPN and it definitely was not during the times you mentioned in bulletin 2. I would ask everyone in this thread to give specifics if they used a VPN in the cases the launcher forgot their logins.

2.) Have these purges been communicated through the launcher? I cannot remember any information about these four dates. If you have communicated them elsewhere, why did you? If you intend to make the launcher the only way of logging in, then you better improve the information flow. Twitter, Reddit, Facebook and whatnot are not the ways to communicate useful information. If you think otherwise, then you definitely should consider adding a mirrored twitter feed to the launcher or something. If you did not provide any information about the purges at all on any medium, why didn't you?

3.) The problem is, the exefile stores it's settings in a different location than the launcher does. If I would boot my client now through the exefile, all my ingame settings are default. I would have to change everything again. If I start the game via the launcher afterwards, all settings are where they belong. This might give me the hint about another reason why you want to get rid of the exefile, so you do not have multiple locations to worry about. Here is a problem though;
The actual cache, including images, is to this day sitting in application data and there is nothing we can do about it. You should relocate them into shared cache. Not everyone wants their system drive to be bloated if it can be avoided.

4.) Why do you think third party launchers are out there? Could it be because they do the job better than your launcher? While I'm not going to pitch the usual "hire these folks" fit, I do make a point about how the mere existence of other Launchers should be concerning in itself.

5.)
I'm not sure why you refer to the old launcher when you quoted the point of the exefile being more resilient to DDOS attacks. Was that a typo and you meant the old launcher, or did you make a context error and did not address the aforementioned exefile security?

6.) While I appreciate the option to get rid of certificate issues, how necessary is something like that? Admittedly my knowledge about certificates is limited so I don't know much about how often this needs to be done on a regular basis. What I do have to note is how Eve online is the only game / has the only launcher with this option I know of, and also with these problems. So that alone raises some questions. It's fine if you admit an open defect, but for how long has this defect now being allowed to survive? It appears it was around for quite some time, but I will stand corrected otherwise.


Zmaster BloodLust wrote:
I understand why they are doing this... its to prevent people from loging 10 Alpha clone alts...
Well you can't log in 10 Trials through the launcher, so I'm not sure this speculation holds any water.
Raka Tokila
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#173 - 2016-09-08 12:38:12 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:

“The launcher forgets my accounts if I leave it open for too long”
If you are logged in and subsequently enable a VPN connection, the SSO iframe fails and then forgets your accounts. We believe there may also be an issue with time passing or network connectivity loss that we are trying to narrow down to root cause(s).
In the past we have forced the launcher to forget all accounts, for security reasons (and one deployment error). These purges occurred on: 25/11/15, 26/1/16, 8/2/16 and 20/6/16.


I need to relogin all my accounts every couple of days, sometimes daily. I don't use VPNs, so yes, there are still other issues.
Vajra Zaitsez
Eldorado Exhumers
Fractions of PI
#174 - 2016-09-08 13:00:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Vajra Zaitsez
Runiba Toll wrote:
This is my FIRST post on forums,

When the game stops working for me I'm going to stop paying.

If the launcher stops working and I can't use the exefile.exe route the game has stopped working.

At that point I will limit my losses and find a new game Very simple, and having posted this, ALL are informed, players, CCP, and the NSA so they'll need to put a physical bug in my apartment once eve dies.


Runiba is only one of several whom have indicated they use the exe file. Many solo account players use it as a backup in event of launcher failure.

Based on CCP Dev posts it appears CCP is committed to this change.

The November Update was already chock full of new content, then surprise! CCP is bringing you Clone States. Next came a dizzying array of possible abuses most based on assumptions. Immediately after that we hear EvE.exe is being eliminated. It would seem that the exe elimination is in part being done as a way to mitigate potential Alpha Clone abuses.

The Clone states were supposed to be a way to gain new players. It looks like now they will be an attempt to recover what is about to be self inflicted losses.

The game economy and CCP EvE revenue is currently balanced on all of the players including to a large degree multiboxers.

Its worth considering that based on a 90 day re-sub rate, every 1000 accounts downsized or eliminated CCP will lose approximately $155,000.00 US revenue income each year on subs alone.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#175 - 2016-09-08 13:09:23 UTC
1. Did they assume that everyone who is having issues uses a VPN? My English isn't perfect but it's pretty good. I suggest you read it again

2. Do you think it's appropriate for developers to communicate every little tiny change or fix to the general public? They purged saved form information, they didn't leak your card details. Calm down bro.

3. This is done for redundancy. I'll take a little inconvenience for having my settings saved if I have to reinstall.

4. I don't know, because ccp is one the few companies that allow it? You don't see third party launchers for other games cause it's actually against EULA.

5 and 6 don't require my commentary
CCP Darwin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#176 - 2016-09-08 13:27:29 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Darwin
Anke Eyrou wrote:
CCP
Can you please ensure that when I put my computer to sleep the launcher does not lose my account information.

Raka Tokila wrote:
I need to relogin all my accounts every couple of days, sometimes daily. I don't use VPNs, so yes, there are still other issues.

If this happens consistently, please submit a bug report as I've described here, preferably right after it happens. If you then mail me the bug report number in-game, I can call the right people's attention to it.

CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins

Henry Plantgenet
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#177 - 2016-09-08 13:50:48 UTC
THe only problem i've had with the new launcher is that the number of pilots on TQ fluctuates randomly at downtime always a positive number never 0 until downtime is almost over.
But that's just something minor.
Jynx Archipedigo
Tripoint Mercetile Rimrunners
#178 - 2016-09-08 14:56:43 UTC
Seriously CCP, you got some weird things going on...

Couple months ago the in game browser was removed, understandable, maintaining browser support even if you can leech mozilla source code legally but is a security bug haven and PITA .. So when you click links/saved bookmarks client WAS giving a warning and opens your default browser. Until I notice yesterday BANG in game browser back when I tried using a previously saved BM in client. Kinda shocked me, don't know why it was back or if it was supposed to be back.

Now I'm guessing, and I could be wrong, it isn't supposed to be back and if that is the case it raises even stronger argument that there could be mismanagement in the build repositories and deployment. If you circle it back around to the thread's topic, if something that was supposed to and was removed somehow reappears. Why in the world should we as consumers be laid back about an aspect of the way the game works that has offered a work around to other issues frequent or infrequent as depending on the individuals experience. Running the exefile directly on an up to date patch virtually always works and quite frankly is quicker if you have previously quit the launcher and want to switch characters on the same account.

I'll stand corrected if it can be pointed out the browser was intentionally reinstated
Forgotten N Forsaken
Chronic Logistics
Slightly Competent
#179 - 2016-09-08 15:05:27 UTC
I never Use Vpn and the Launcher Forgets all my info the moment its closed.
Xavier Arcesium
Doomheim
#180 - 2016-09-08 15:16:46 UTC
Teinyhr wrote:
Seeing as the launcher is somekind of mini-browser in itself, and IIRC has been infected with malware before, I have to seriously wonder and doubt how does this enhance account security in any way?

P.S. I have not used the client login system since how many years has it been we've had the launcher, just saying, I'm not buying the "improved security" thing at all.


Presuming they do it right, it's a way to prevent anything that isn't an official launcher to run exefile. That said, I hope the tradeoff is worth it. I have had a lot of trouble running the launcher myself and would hate to lose the workaround.