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More fitting choices

Author
Lugh Crow-Slave
#21 - 2016-09-02 10:46:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Infinity Ziona wrote:

No I used the Svipul as an extreme example of smaller ships fitting larger ships mods. It only works from small to larger. Bigger ships can't fit smaller ships mods to get an advantage like small ships can. Svipuls are not the only small ships that can use oversized mods.

In regards to your "only need a few webs, or a Rapier / Huginn or Hyena". This demonstrates the disparity very well in my opinion.

I dont think anyone wants to see battleships fitting capital mods, which is why larger ships should be able to fit smaller ship weapons system without penalty the same one smaller ships fit larger ships mods.

What imbalance are you referring to? In my example of fitting rockets on a Typhoon, if they were bonused the Typhoon would go from 170dps to 230 dps. The typhoons explosion radius would make no difference to the smaller ships since rockets already hit for max on smaller ships.

I cannot see how that is more imbalanced than being able to fit a 1600mm plate on a cruiser, a 50mn MWD on a destroyer or a large shield extender on a T3.

Oh I forgot another system that was designed for battleships but which is used extremely well by smaller ships, Heavy Drones and Sentry Drones.

XL shield boosters, Large shield boosters can also be added to the list of oversized mods.

the fact that you need support to fully use a large ship seems unbalanced to you?

well in regards to plats and shield extenders they are balanced for you to fit up same with boosters with it being easier to fit plates and boosters (this is why they each have an XL size)

as for oversize prop mod many would argue that it is imballanced and have been fighting to remove the possibility

the reason fitting smaller guns is not the same is you can now get = or greater DPS than a smaller ship but with no draw back other than potential dps. when fitting larger sized mods you can't get = or greater tank and you have to make sacrifices in the rest of the fittings to accommodate for the higher CPU/PG of the larger mods. the agi and sig is also a bigger penalty on a small ship vs a large ship when talking about extenders and plates.

tl;dr
oversize tank mods are not a good example to justify small weapons on large ships it is just a false dichotomy and over-sized prop mods are already considered OP by a large number of the player base


EDIT:

so i just looked and depending on range you only need 1-2 webs for a BB to catch up to an overheating oversized ab svip. that is not all that hard to manage
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2016-09-02 11:13:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

No I used the Svipul as an extreme example of smaller ships fitting larger ships mods. It only works from small to larger. Bigger ships can't fit smaller ships mods to get an advantage like small ships can. Svipuls are not the only small ships that can use oversized mods.

In regards to your "only need a few webs, or a Rapier / Huginn or Hyena". This demonstrates the disparity very well in my opinion.

I dont think anyone wants to see battleships fitting capital mods, which is why larger ships should be able to fit smaller ship weapons system without penalty the same one smaller ships fit larger ships mods.

What imbalance are you referring to? In my example of fitting rockets on a Typhoon, if they were bonused the Typhoon would go from 170dps to 230 dps. The typhoons explosion radius would make no difference to the smaller ships since rockets already hit for max on smaller ships.

I cannot see how that is more imbalanced than being able to fit a 1600mm plate on a cruiser, a 50mn MWD on a destroyer or a large shield extender on a T3.

Oh I forgot another system that was designed for battleships but which is used extremely well by smaller ships, Heavy Drones and Sentry Drones.

XL shield boosters, Large shield boosters can also be added to the list of oversized mods.

the fact that you need support to fully use a large ship seems unbalanced to you?

well in regards to plats and shield extenders they are balanced for you to fit up same with boosters with it being easier to fit plates and boosters (this is why they each have an XL size)

as for oversize prop mod many would argue that it is imballanced and have been fighting to remove the possibility

the reason fitting smaller guns is not the same is you can now get = or greater DPS than a smaller ship but with no draw back other than potential dps. when fitting larger sized mods you can't get = or greater tank and you have to make sacrifices in the rest of the fittings to accommodate for the higher CPU/PG of the larger mods. the agi and sig is also a bigger penalty on a small ship vs a large ship when talking about extenders and plates.

tl;dr
oversize tank mods are not a good example to justify small weapons on large ships it is just a false dichotomy and over-sized prop mods are already considered OP by a large number of the player base


EDIT:

so i just looked and depending on range you only need 1-2 webs for a BB to catch up to an overheating oversized ab svip. that is not all that hard to manage

Of course its imbalanced if smaller ships don't need support - the definition of imbalanced is that one side has an advantage over the other.

Oversized mods are not a good example? Its not enough to simply state that without providing a reason. I can do the same thing with virtually any statement I can think of.

Here is a well reasoned statement in regards to why it is a good thing.

Small ships are now over-represented in EvE. Its extremely rare to see a battleship in null sec that's not ratting and even the ratting battleships have been all but replaced by drone cruisers using battleship sized drones. Its rare to see a battlecruiser in null sec these days too other than the occasional fleet of hurricanes.

The proliferation of small ships with oversized propulsion mods has led to very unenjoyable game of catch the frigate which given align times is most often impossible unless a frigate is used thus forcing people to give up the larger ships and only fly frigates themselves.

My position is that all ships should ideally be viable PvP ships and the ship you use should be one that you enjoy using; winning fights and non-consentual PvP should be based on skill and experience and not purely on whether you're in a frigate or destroyer.

Edit: I'm assuming you've never flown a battleship in PvP and never flown a Svipul.... in regards to Battleships only needing 2 webs to catch a Svipul... you don't catch them in anything bigger than a frigate, they hit 4kms, by the time you lock them they're way way out of range of webs if they want to be. In regards to webbing specialized ships you can't web them because they won't be there if you bring those ships, unless they're stupid.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Lugh Crow-Slave
#23 - 2016-09-02 11:30:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
the need of large ships to have support of small ships is how they balance the large ones from having higher DPS and tank if it was not for that there would be no reason to not use large ships.


and yes there are more small than large they are cheaper they are faster and they don't need support. This makes them easier to use and make fleets around but that does not make them better. again look at black ops gangs battle ships are used all the time in them because their fleets are built with strong support and it take just as much time to get a battleship on field as it does a frigate making it easy to bring that support.

Battleships are viable in pvp and i for one enjoy using them and being a part of a fleet built around them. Do you think dreads should get all of their bonuses to small guns? titans? should we bring sub cap drones back to carriers? i mean we should right there are more frigates being used than titans best way to fix that is just give titan bonuses to small guns and let them go blap happy. Its not like there are any points in eve's history we can point to where over application of larges ships became a huge issue .

and i did explain why oversize tank mods were not a good example

Quote:

the reason fitting smaller guns is not the same is you can now get = or greater DPS than a smaller ship but with no draw back other than potential dps. when fitting larger sized mods you can't get = or greater tank and you have to make sacrifices in the rest of the fittings to accommodate for the higher CPU/PG of the larger mods. the agi and sig is also a bigger penalty on a small ship vs a large ship when talking about extenders and plates.

did you only read the tl;dr?

EDIT:

as to your edit


yes i do fly battle ships the main ships i fly are Logistics Carriers(a ship speced to kill sub caps that still needs support to do it) and Battleships

your argument of "web spect ships don't count cuz deh to good" is just dumb besides that lokies and rapiers can easily cov cloak if you dont want to scare away your target (even cyno in if you want to get fancy)
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2016-09-02 11:45:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
the need of large ships to have support of small ships is how they balance the large ones from having higher DPS and tank if it was not for that there would be no reason to not use large ships.


and yes there are more small than large they are cheaper they are faster and they don't need support. This makes them easier to use and make fleets around but that does not make them better. again look at black ops gangs battle ships are used all the time in them because their fleets are built with strong support and it take just as much time to get a battleship on field as it does a frigate making it easy to bring that support.

Battleships are viable in pvp and i for one enjoy using them and being a part of a fleet built around them. Do you think dreads should get all of their bonuses to small guns? titans? should we bring sub cap drones back to carriers? i mean we should right there are more frigates being used than titans best way to fix that is just give titan bonuses to small guns and let them go blap happy. Its not like there are any points in eve's history we can point to where over application of larges ships became a huge issue .

and i did explain why oversize tank mods were not a good example

Quote:

the reason fitting smaller guns is not the same is you can now get = or greater DPS than a smaller ship but with no draw back other than potential dps. when fitting larger sized mods you can't get = or greater tank and you have to make sacrifices in the rest of the fittings to accommodate for the higher CPU/PG of the larger mods. the agi and sig is also a bigger penalty on a small ship vs a large ship when talking about extenders and plates.

did you only read the tl;dr?

EDIT:

as to your edit


yes i do fly battle ships the main ships i fly are Logistics Carriers(a ship speced to kill sub caps that still needs support to do it) and Battleships

your argument of "web spect ships don't count cuz deh to good" is just dumb besides that lokies and rapiers can easily cov cloak if you dont want to scare away your target (even cyno in if you want to get fancy)

You are incorrect. Smaller ships are balanced by having huge bonuses to speed, agility, sig radius and scan resolution. This is why a single frigate is largely unkillable by a battleship in a 1 vs 1. They can mitigate most of the damaget, dictate range, deal full damage, lock faster and apply ecm, tracking disruptors, damps, webs. In every situation imaginable they can decide to leave before they're locked.

Smaller ships are not used simply because they're cheaper, in most cases the newer smaller ships cost as much as a battlecruiser hull but they're still used because they're too effective and they essentially turn EvE into consensual pvp when you use them - you only have to fight if you think you can win.

Smaller ships should need support to effectively kill larger ships as much as larger ships should need support to effectively kill smaller ships.

I've played since 2003 and that's the way EvE was designed and how it was balanced until recently.

You have still not explained how my suggestion would imbalance the game btw. How is a rocket using Typhoon doing 230dps imbalanced?

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Lugh Crow-Slave
#25 - 2016-09-02 11:55:11 UTC
no 1v1 a frig will not kill anything but a buffer fit BB with no friends and thats how it should be but properly flown a 10 man fleet built around BBs will stomp 25 frigates <-this is not a bad thing.

no T1 frig has been added that cost as much as a t1 BC
no faction frig costs as much as a faction cruiser
no t3 desi cost more than a t3 cruiser

now if you mean a t3d cost as much as or more than a t1 BC but apples and oranges

giving better tracking to large ships will not help in any way the risk averse players in eve and you probably won't even see that many more used as it is not the main reason not to use them. one of the biggest as you mentioned is it is harder to pick your engagement in something so big and slow.

larger ships and there fleets also have a much higher skill ceiling this will also put a damper on things.


also yes in the past eve did make it to where big ship> small ship this has changed so that every ship matters or do you want to go back to the days of insta blap titans? because i'll tell you THAT sure put a wrinkle in the validity of BBs
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2016-09-02 12:11:01 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
no 1v1 a frig will not kill anything but a buffer fit BB with no friends and thats how it should be but properly flown a 10 man fleet built around BBs will stomp 25 frigates <-this is not a bad thing.

no T1 frig has been added that cost as much as a t1 BC
no faction frig costs as much as a faction cruiser
no t3 desi cost more than a t3 cruiser

now if you mean a t3d cost as much as or more than a t1 BC but apples and oranges

giving better tracking to large ships will not help in any way the risk averse players in eve and you probably won't even see that many more used as it is not the main reason not to use them. one of the biggest as you mentioned is it is harder to pick your engagement in something so big and slow.

larger ships and there fleets also have a much higher skill ceiling this will also put a damper on things.


also yes in the past eve did make it to where big ship> small ship this has changed so that every ship matters or do you want to go back to the days of insta blap titans? because i'll tell you THAT sure put a wrinkle in the validity of BBs

1 v 1 a frig will always beat a battleship unless its not constrained by its large weapons (specialized drone, nuet, web, scram but these are not battleship traits) but otherwise the battleship will either die to people turning up while its unable to do anything, will die to running out of cap or running out of buffer.

Properly flown 10 battleships will die to 25 properly flown frigates unless they're specialised battleships.

Nobody asked for better tracking, the thread is about battleships being able to fit smaller weapon systems and getting the bonuses for them which would very modestly buff them so they're not sitting ducks while at the same time removing the majority of their DPS.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Lugh Crow-Slave
#27 - 2016-09-02 12:18:16 UTC
Wait now hold on if more people show up it's no longer a 1v1 is it? And even if there are nuts on the frig most battle ship fits won't cap out.

When did I say 10 a battleships vs 25 fries? Read it again


So again I ask should dreads titans and carriers get the same treatment? There is nothing wrong with a ship balanced around needing support being a sitting duck without it. Nothing is stopping you from fitting small guns and many battleships will still get more dps than a frig if they do but a frig should be built to get more out of each one and a battleship should not be 100% self efficient
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2016-09-02 13:41:25 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Wait now hold on if more people show up it's no longer a 1v1 is it? And even if there are nuts on the frig most battle ship fits won't cap out.

When did I say 10 a battleships vs 25 fries? Read it again


So again I ask should dreads titans and carriers get the same treatment? There is nothing wrong with a ship balanced around needing support being a sitting duck without it. Nothing is stopping you from fitting small guns and many battleships will still get more dps than a frig if they do but a frig should be built to get more out of each one and a battleship should not be 100% self efficient

It was quite clear the idea was for T1 ships only, not capitals.

Its 1 vs 1 if the battleship is held by a single frigate and cannot do anything to counter that until the back up arrives. A frigate can hold a battleship as long as it wants to. The frigate can leave anytime and the battleship cannot. The battleship loses if the aim is to escape or kill the frigate. The frigate wins if the aim is to kill the battleship or hold it till back up arrives.

You still have not demonstrated what would be overpowered about my suggestion so I am assuming you have no answer and your opposition is simply one of personal opinion. Thank you for contributing.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#29 - 2016-09-02 13:52:37 UTC
What are:

Neuts, jams, drones, smartbombs, mobile depots + WCS, webs, grapples, paints, MJD, RHML...(or, y'know, SUPPORT like a BS is supposed to have)

Of course, because this doesn't agree with your point you'll write this all off as 'specialist', as if fitting for what you're likely to face is somehow a bad idea...
Lugh Crow-Slave
#30 - 2016-09-02 13:58:35 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Wait now hold on if more people show up it's no longer a 1v1 is it? And even if there are nuts on the frig most battle ship fits won't cap out.

When did I say 10 a battleships vs 25 fries? Read it again


So again I ask should dreads titans and carriers get the same treatment? There is nothing wrong with a ship balanced around needing support being a sitting duck without it. Nothing is stopping you from fitting small guns and many battleships will still get more dps than a frig if they do but a frig should be built to get more out of each one and a battleship should not be 100% self efficient

It was quite clear the idea was for T1 ships only, not capitals.

Its 1 vs 1 if the battleship is held by a single frigate and cannot do anything to counter that until the back up arrives. A frigate can hold a battleship as long as it wants to. The frigate can leave anytime and the battleship cannot. The battleship loses if the aim is to escape or kill the frigate. The frigate wins if the aim is to kill the battleship or hold it till back up arrives.

You still have not demonstrated what would be overpowered about my suggestion so I am assuming you have no answer and your opposition is simply one of personal opinion. Thank you for contributing.



Why does the frig get backup but not the BB?

How is making the only way too kill a BB is by using another BB not overpowered. And should sub caps always be able to fit down but not capitals?

Thinking about it I do enjoy your earlier point about if a BB has support small ships just won't fight it. So what you are saying is a battleship with support is too powerful but you can't understand why a battleships that don't need support is broken.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#31 - 2016-09-02 14:00:23 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
What are:

Neuts, jams, drones, smartbombs, mobile depots + WCS, webs, grapples, paints, MJD, RHML...(or, y'know, SUPPORT like a BS is supposed to have)

Of course, because this doesn't agree with your point you'll write this all off as 'specialist', as if fitting for what you're likely to face is somehow a bad idea...


Like they stated earlier if you have support the BB becomes to op for anything to want fight it..... so naturally we should make it so BBC don't need support.?


Now my head is starting to hurt
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2016-09-02 14:09:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
You could both grow some balls, stop obfuscating and tell me why you think adding 60 dps to a battleship makes it imbalanced... or just keep changing the subject... thanks next

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Lugh Crow-Slave
#33 - 2016-09-02 14:25:31 UTC
so are you just going to ignore the reasons we have given as to why it is imbalanced then?
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2016-09-02 15:02:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
so are you just going to ignore the reasons we have given as to why it is imbalanced then?

Hard to ignore the reasons when you have given no reasons at all.

Let me ask you again, in what way would ships become imbalanced if they could fit bonused smaller sized weapons modules? Give an example. Preferably with a fit. T1 ships only.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#35 - 2016-09-02 15:36:44 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
You could both grow some balls, stop obfuscating and tell me why you think adding 60 dps to a battleship makes it imbalanced... or just keep changing the subject... thanks next



Closer to 600, with perfect application on literally anything. (6 bonused rlmls on a raven, typhoon or fleet issue with 3 bcs and scourge fury)
Lugh Crow-Slave
#36 - 2016-09-02 16:25:44 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
You could both grow some balls, stop obfuscating and tell me why you think adding 60 dps to a battleship makes it imbalanced... or just keep changing the subject... thanks next



Closer to 600, with perfect application on literally anything. (6 bonused rlmls on a raven, typhoon or fleet issue with 3 bcs and scourge fury)


stop changing the subject why shouldn't battleships be able to get bonuses to smaller weapons? you probably just dont have one do you
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#37 - 2016-09-02 18:59:15 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
the need of large ships to have support of small ships is how they balance the large ones from having higher DPS and tank if it was not for that there would be no reason to not use large ships.


Perhaps more true before the warp speed changes. Now less so.

There's lot's perfectly viable, T1 BS that you can have a blast soloing or very small gang roaming in. It's literally fun for the whole EvE family regardless if you are piloting the BS or attacking the BS. With grapplers and MJDs, they really are approaching a good spot....that is, if it were not for warp speed.

All warp speeds in the game should just be flat out doubled, which would keep the differential between hull size which people like. People like the differential, but low end of the base just is yet another nail in the coffin of EvE online, and another boon to frigates online.

Don't get me wrong. I like frigate PvP - things are decided quickly off of a limited number of moves, giving it more of an arcade type feel. It has a place, a time, and a role. But one of the primary things keeping BS back are not fittings or bonuses, but warp speed.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#38 - 2016-09-02 22:45:17 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
so are you just going to ignore the reasons we have given as to why it is imbalanced then?

Hard to ignore the reasons when you have given no reasons at all.

Let me ask you again, in what way would ships become imbalanced if they could fit bonused smaller sized weapons modules? Give an example. Preferably with a fit. T1 ships only.


You are funny!

I said Barghest, Rattlesnake. The bonus applies to all sizes.

Oh and my regular Raven can not be pinned by 4 "properly" flown jet-skies. I make kill those with cruise missiles.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2016-09-02 23:58:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
elitatwo wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Hard to ignore the reasons when you have given no reasons at all.

Let me ask you again, in what way would ships become imbalanced if they could fit bonused smaller sized weapons modules? Give an example. Preferably with a fit. T1 ships only.


You are funny!

I said Barghest, Rattlesnake. The bonus applies to all sizes.

Oh and my regular Raven can not be pinned by 4 "properly" flown jet-skies. I make kill those with cruise missiles.

Since when is a Barghest and a rattlesnake a T1 battleship. They're faction battleships. The T1 battleships were first introduced at the games launch. The factions much later.

So I had a good look at your killboard - you haven't killed a single frig, interceptor or cruiser in a battleship solo so you have no experience at all in terms of what your battleship can do vs a frig or multiple frigs.

I did notice you have lost a number of battleships to cruisers and frigates though, even npc ones. You lost a command ship to a cruiser frigates too. Lets stick to facts not fantasy :)


Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
You could both grow some balls, stop obfuscating and tell me why you think adding 60 dps to a battleship makes it imbalanced... or just keep changing the subject... thanks next



Closer to 600, with perfect application on literally anything. (6 bonused rlmls on a raven, typhoon or fleet issue with 3 bcs and scourge fury)


stop changing the subject why shouldn't battleships be able to get bonuses to smaller weapons? you probably just dont have one do you

Looking through your killboard you probably should not be commenting on battleships at all. You fit a Bharg with 5 BCU's and full ECM in mids.... other than that you only seem to have experience in Blops which are not T1 battleships and typically dropped onto single large targets not frigates. You have zero solo battleship kills and not kills against frigates in battleships other than in huge gangs which makes any of your input moot.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2016-09-03 00:05:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Danika Princip wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
You could both grow some balls, stop obfuscating and tell me why you think adding 60 dps to a battleship makes it imbalanced... or just keep changing the subject... thanks next



Closer to 600, with perfect application on literally anything. (6 bonused rlmls on a raven, typhoon or fleet issue with 3 bcs and scourge fury)

I want one of your battleships.

With perfect skills + 3 BCS II + scourge fury:

Raven - 368 unbonused - 460 (bonused) (increase 92 dps)

You appear to have zero experience in battleships. The closest you appear to have ever gotten to soloing one was a 17 vs 1 travel fit Mega. How can you possibly understand balance issues with any ship if you have never actually flown one solo in any capacity. The only solo kills you have are kills vs pods.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)