These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Intergalactic Summit

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Matari: Where are we now and where are we headed?
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#81 - 2016-09-05 22:37:21 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
It is a big problem and only likely to get bigger. You need to be brutally honest and up front about it. I have a friend who is racially Minmatar and culturally Caldari and I would react most violently towards anyone who insisted he was due anything but the respect owed to any other citizen. My culture tells me that anyone who follows The Way and proves themselves IS Caldari.

I have no other recourse - not because it would be unfair to him, but because if it is otherwise then The Way is a lie, and if The Way is a lie then what is truth, anymore?

The tribes need to hold strong to their beliefs and culture and to be ruthless about cutting out those who do not share their culture from their society. As my dear wife says, Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.

You must be selective. It really IS kinder, both to you and to them. There is nothing wrong with letting them choose, but once they choose the Empire and the Empire's Faith you must let go of them.

The Way are beliefs of our ancestors, but it is neither official, nor even dominant belief in the State, Tuulinen-haan. Currently dominant and most modern trend in Caldari society is Kutuoto Miru. I myself, as a follower of the Way, however like it, wouldn't demand any Caldari to follow it. We aren't gallente to have a thought policy in the State, and we don't have Black Eagles who would make you 'disappear' if you don't praise the Way. If you are Caldari you can believe whatever you like... provided you work for the State and keep your damn loyalty.

Yes. Exactly keeping loyalty to the State I'd put as a requirement to being Caldari. And those, who betray Caldari, who betray comrades in arms, who would prefer working for Feds instead the State, they can't be considered Caldari anymore.

Now retutrning to Minmatars... I think I have stated it several times earlier, that before I died and became a capsuleer, I never saw even one Minmatar in whole State, and all my points of view on Minmatars are results of interaction with themselves, mostly - capsuleer Minmatars. But I have to agree with you. I have recently actually met a Minmatar who IS Caldari indeed. I think I still can't completely come to peace with this conclusion, since all minmatars I knew before were... well... totally untrustworthy.

But she does what every Caldari shall do - she fights for the State and defends Black Rise from Gallentean occupants. And I am positively surprised to see her interest in our culture and language.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#82 - 2016-09-05 22:53:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Pieter Tuulinen
I mean the Caldari Way, Diana, not the Way of the Winds. I'm obviously not comfortable telling other Caldari how to honour their ancestors.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#83 - 2016-09-06 12:40:14 UTC
Arnulf Ogunkoya wrote:
Ashlar Vellum wrote:

Yeah about that, YC110 faced all those wide range of views with hard facts. So peaceful coexistence based only on treaties is not an option.


Pray sir, how should the Minmatar have dealt with the problem of living Starkmanir being rediscovered in Imperial space?

Unless I miss my guess the authorities would have been duty bound to complete the extermination of the tribe. This seems a certainty given who the highest authority was at the time. Karsoth, the Blood Raider sympathiser.

Had the Tribes waited, do you think treaties would have saved our kin?

This tends to make my point about elements within the Empire being a problem, rather than the whole. Unfortunately those elements include heir families and a legal system that does what it does because a old edict says it should.

By not going with the crime of aggression and work their concerns through proper diplomatic channels. It is also good to remember that even in the Empire "duty bound" means different things to different people.

Royal families, legal system and old edicts are staples of the Empire, there is no such thing as "amarr as whole" without it.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#84 - 2016-09-06 12:56:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Arrendis
Ashlar Vellum wrote:

By not going with the crime of aggression and work their concerns through proper diplomatic channels.


Because trusting the system worked so well for them the first time. Need I remind you that the root causes of the Starkmanir Genocide lay in the occupation of Starkman Prime and their embrace of the Amarr faith? One man took revenge for the murder of the Holder he loved, and the response was to glass the damned planet.
Muck Raker
Gutter Press
#85 - 2016-09-06 16:59:01 UTC
Neph wrote:
What is this bile? Has Constantly Outraged Sebiestor finally succumbed to the temptation to......To...I can hardly say it; give me a moment. Yes. No, I'm sorry.
...to make a good post?


When posting in a personal capacity, Gutter Press staff are free to post how they please, without reference to the style guide.

Rumours, Wars, Rumours of Wars, Wars of Rumours!
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#86 - 2016-09-06 17:28:31 UTC
Shocking!
Arrendis
TK Corp
#87 - 2016-09-06 21:44:08 UTC
Muck Raker wrote:
Neph wrote:
What is this bile? Has Constantly Outraged Sebiestor finally succumbed to the temptation to......To...I can hardly say it; give me a moment. Yes. No, I'm sorry.
...to make a good post?


When posting in a personal capacity, Gutter Press staff are free to post how they please, without reference to the style guide.


THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#88 - 2016-09-06 21:48:06 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Ashlar Vellum wrote:

By not going with the crime of aggression and work their concerns through proper diplomatic channels.


Because trusting the system worked so well for them the first time. Need I remind you that the root causes of the Starkmanir Genocide lay in the occupation of Starkman Prime and their embrace of the Amarr faith? One man took revenge for the murder of the Holder he loved, and the response was to glass the damned planet.

If there is no trust and no interest in honoring treaties, then how do you expect to build peaceful coexistence.

Also what system are you talking about, starkmanir rebellion was in 23052 AD and Yoiul Conference was in 23236 AD. There were no proper channels for resolving disputes diplomatically between big four before that. There wasn't even a big four before 23216 AD, so what system and who was trusting in that system.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#89 - 2016-09-06 22:05:41 UTC
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
Also what system are you talking about, starkmanir rebellion was in 23052 AD and Yoiul Conference was in 23236 AD. There were no proper channels for resolving disputes diplomatically between big four before that. There wasn't even a big four before 23216 AD, so what system and who was trusting in that system.


The Amarr political and legal system.

We have no reason to trust you not to annihilate our people while CONCORD does its paperwork. We never have had any reason to trust you. We continue to have no reason to trust you. The slave raids continue, feeding the slave trade in Amarr space. Despite efforts to pretty it up, and a one-time proclamation by a now-dead ruler, the Divine Mandate of the Amarr remains: The Amarr way is right. All other ways are wrong. Eliminate all other ways. Convert those you can, that they will serve the Amarr. Those who will not convert are damned, and 'The Wrath of God is Immense. His Justice is Swift and Decisive. His Tolerance is Limited.'

What possible reason could we ever have to trust an empire whose reason for existence is to obliterate our self-determination and our way of life?
Neph
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#90 - 2016-09-06 23:21:55 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
What possible reason could we ever have to trust an empire whose reason for existence is to obliterate our self-determination and our way of life?


To make some money.

~ Gariushi YC110 // Midular YC115 // Yanala YC115 ~

"Orte Jaitovalte sitasuyti ne obuetsa useuut ishu. Ketsiak ishiulyn." -Yakiya Tovil-Toba-taisoka
Arrendis
TK Corp
#91 - 2016-09-06 23:50:08 UTC
Neph wrote:
Arrendis wrote:
What possible reason could we ever have to trust an empire whose reason for existence is to obliterate our self-determination and our way of life?


To make some money.


That's a reason to use them, not to trust them.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#92 - 2016-09-07 01:18:00 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
Also what system are you talking about, starkmanir rebellion was in 23052 AD and Yoiul Conference was in 23236 AD. There were no proper channels for resolving disputes diplomatically between big four before that. There wasn't even a big four before 23216 AD, so what system and who was trusting in that system.


The Amarr political and legal system.

We have no reason to trust you not to annihilate our people while CONCORD does its paperwork. We never have had any reason to trust you. We continue to have no reason to trust you. The slave raids continue, feeding the slave trade in Amarr space. Despite efforts to pretty it up, and a one-time proclamation by a now-dead ruler, the Divine Mandate of the Amarr remains: The Amarr way is right. All other ways are wrong. Eliminate all other ways. Convert those you can, that they will serve the Amarr. Those who will not convert are damned, and 'The Wrath of God is Immense. His Justice is Swift and Decisive. His Tolerance is Limited.'

What possible reason could we ever have to trust an empire whose reason for existence is to obliterate our self-determination and our way of life?


It is this distrust against anything Amarr that is the reason why there are prejudice-fueled attacks on the Amarr-devout free Matari within Republic space.

Face it. The Faithful will never renounce their Faith. They will never put blood and kin above the Faith. They will also attempt to convert the non-Faithful Matari, namely all of us, into their Faith with a public spectacle, due to the nature of their Faith. How is coexistence suppose to work?

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#93 - 2016-09-07 01:50:06 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Arrendis wrote:
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
Also what system are you talking about, starkmanir rebellion was in 23052 AD and Yoiul Conference was in 23236 AD. There were no proper channels for resolving disputes diplomatically between big four before that. There wasn't even a big four before 23216 AD, so what system and who was trusting in that system.


The Amarr political and legal system.

We have no reason to trust you not to annihilate our people while CONCORD does its paperwork. We never have had any reason to trust you. We continue to have no reason to trust you. The slave raids continue, feeding the slave trade in Amarr space. Despite efforts to pretty it up, and a one-time proclamation by a now-dead ruler, the Divine Mandate of the Amarr remains: The Amarr way is right. All other ways are wrong. Eliminate all other ways. Convert those you can, that they will serve the Amarr. Those who will not convert are damned, and 'The Wrath of God is Immense. His Justice is Swift and Decisive. His Tolerance is Limited.'

What possible reason could we ever have to trust an empire whose reason for existence is to obliterate our self-determination and our way of life?


It is this distrust against anything Amarr that is the reason why there are prejudice-fueled attacks on the Amarr-devout free Matari within Republic space.

Face it. The Faithful will never renounce their Faith. They will never put blood and kin above the Faith. They will also attempt to convert the non-Faithful Matari, namely all of us, into their Faith with a public spectacle, due to the nature of their Faith. How is coexistence suppose to work?

Strong fences make for good neighbours.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#94 - 2016-09-07 01:55:48 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Arrendis wrote:
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
Also what system are you talking about, starkmanir rebellion was in 23052 AD and Yoiul Conference was in 23236 AD. There were no proper channels for resolving disputes diplomatically between big four before that. There wasn't even a big four before 23216 AD, so what system and who was trusting in that system.


The Amarr political and legal system.

We have no reason to trust you not to annihilate our people while CONCORD does its paperwork. We never have had any reason to trust you. We continue to have no reason to trust you. The slave raids continue, feeding the slave trade in Amarr space. Despite efforts to pretty it up, and a one-time proclamation by a now-dead ruler, the Divine Mandate of the Amarr remains: The Amarr way is right. All other ways are wrong. Eliminate all other ways. Convert those you can, that they will serve the Amarr. Those who will not convert are damned, and 'The Wrath of God is Immense. His Justice is Swift and Decisive. His Tolerance is Limited.'

What possible reason could we ever have to trust an empire whose reason for existence is to obliterate our self-determination and our way of life?


It is this distrust against anything Amarr that is the reason why there are prejudice-fueled attacks on the Amarr-devout free Matari within Republic space.

Face it. The Faithful will never renounce their Faith. They will never put blood and kin above the Faith. They will also attempt to convert the non-Faithful Matari, namely all of us, into their Faith with a public spectacle, due to the nature of their Faith. How is coexistence suppose to work?

Strong fences make for good neighbours.


Yes. We should let them go and form their own communities, for their sake and ours.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#95 - 2016-09-07 04:43:53 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:

It is this distrust against anything Amarr that is the reason why there are prejudice-fueled attacks on the Amarr-devout free Matari within Republic space.

Face it. The Faithful will never renounce their Faith. They will never put blood and kin above the Faith. They will also attempt to convert the non-Faithful Matari, namely all of us, into their Faith with a public spectacle, due to the nature of their Faith. How is coexistence suppose to work?

Strong fences make for good neighbours.


Yes. We should let them go and form their own communities, for their sake and ours.


I spoke of mistrusting the Amarr political and legal systems. Not individuals. I think that's an important distinction to have made, even if it doesn't address the later point.

They don't have to renounce their faith. But they do need to accept that if they choose to live within the Tribes, then that choice comes with a tacit commitment to their Tribe, and through their Tribe, to the Minmatar people. They choose to make that commitment, or to not make that commitment. No-one can or should try to force them to choose one way or the other.

If they choose not to make that commitment, then we should wish them well and send them on their way as friends and distant kin. We should do what we can to help them find a place and to make that place a home, as you would do to help any friend. No one in this discussion has suggested we should try to somehow force them to 'be Matari'.

However, if they choose to be Matari - if they choose to live within the Tribes as well as within their faith - then they are making that commitment. We do them no honor and no service if we simply assume that it is a commitment they cannot live up to, or if we fail to hold them to uphold their part of that commitment. Treat them as free adults. Let them choose, and then hold them responsible to their choice.

But just as we cannot - and should not - force anyone to live within the Tribes, we should not, must not, force any to live outside of the Tribes without due cause and judgment. They must be allowed to choose, and they must be allowed to try. To do any less would be to insult the blood we share. If they choose to be Matari, then we welcome them as Matari, until by their actions they commit an offense so grave as to demand separation from the Tribes.

We cannot demand their freedom, and then deny them the ability to exercise it.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#96 - 2016-09-07 05:03:19 UTC
However, you must remember that to the Faithful, the Faith is placed above all. This is what the Amarrian Faith is all about. To tell them to put Tribe over God is essentially the same thing as to tell them to deny that their God is above all, which is counter to everything their Faith preaches. To choose to be one with the Tribes is essentially the same thing as to chose to deny their Faith. I believe most of them will not make that choice.

We can put it in pretty words, but the fact remains: The Faithful, for as long as they remain Faithful, will never truly be one with the Tribes. Their loyalties and devotion are to the Faith. Faith forms the intrinsic part of their identity. This is why I put up the suggestion for them to find their communities elsewhere, where they can remain Faithful without the harassment of the non-Faithful Matari, who, in reality, still vent their resentments against the Amarr Empire at them. If they were to remain within the Tribes as Faithful, and to practice their Faith, which includes the Reclaiming via conversion, there will only be mounting tension, which will inevitably lead to tragedy. We are a people of deep passions and feelings, after all, even the most logical of Sebiestors among us.

Also, Faith forms the central pillar of which the Imperial Laws and Imperial Politics are built on. For a people whose Faith is so central to their very existence, to question their ways is to more or less question their Faith.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#97 - 2016-09-07 06:08:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Arrendis
But that is a choice for each of them to make. It is not a choice for us to make for them.

If they choose to remain within the Tribes, then they are choosing to commit to restraining those elements of their Faith that would put them in jeopardy of causing problems or fomenting backlash. If they cannot meet that commitment, then they might be told to seek their fortunes elsewhere... but they must be given the chance, and they must be given the choice.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#98 - 2016-09-07 07:13:30 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
But that is a choice for each of them to make. It is not a choice for us to make for them.

If they choose to remain within the Tribes, then they are choosing to commit to restraining those elements of their Faith that would put them in jeopardy of causing problems or fomenting backlash. If they cannot meet that commitment, then they might be told to seek their fortunes elsewhere... but they must be given the chance, and they must be given the choice.


I believe we can agree that Faithful emancipated slaves will be required to choose between Faith and Tribe before they cross the threshold. If they choose Faith, they will have to find some other place to settle. If Tribe, they are welcome to the fold.

But no doubling back after the choice is made. Otherwise, there will be eviction letters. Probably very angry eviction letters.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#99 - 2016-09-07 07:38:34 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
I believe we can agree that Faithful emancipated slaves will be required to choose between Faith and Tribe before they cross the threshold. If they choose Faith, they will have to find some other place to settle. If Tribe, they are welcome to the fold.

But no doubling back after the choice is made. Otherwise, there will be eviction letters. Probably very angry eviction letters.


On the broad strokes, we can certainly agree. I simply believe there is room for them to try to find a middle road that does not betray either, and I wish those who attempt it all the luck in the cluster.

They'll need it.
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#100 - 2016-09-07 08:41:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
"They will just have to find some other place to settle." Because that's so easy for families without any income, professional or even social contacts, living off tribal housing.

The Starkmanir and Nefantar Tribal Chiefs both hold the Amarr faith. As do countless of successful, integrated people. It is not impossible for a person to uphold both Faith and Tribe. Yes, the faith demands reclaiming people under God. That doesn't stop a person from being good to their neighbors and loyal to their family, no matter where they are. The faith demands that you make yourself a better person, that you uphold your word and the commitments you make, that you be honest. Are these not the kind of traits you want in a person?

And no, being with your Tribe does not mean you have to put God under Tribe. You can and should hold God before Tribe. Thousands of people in the Republic are already doing that, and not causing any fuss with anyone.