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Matari: Where are we now and where are we headed?
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Matar Ronin
#221 - 2016-09-13 01:44:01 UTC
Tyrel Toov wrote:
Matar Ronin wrote:
Arrendis wrote:
Matar Ronin wrote:

Of course here in the conversational environs of the IGS you are entitled to your opinion, however in this case impartial facts will not support you.

Despite what many in the Caldari State might hope or convince themselves of, the actual fact is that the slavery cult empire considers no one their equal and themselves superior to all others.


Well, see, here's where that whole 'impartial facts' thing trips you up by making you categorically wrong. See, it doesn't matter if the Amarr Empire considers the Caldari State 'trusted allies' or 'slaves who don't know it yet'. What matters is that, in fact, the Caldari State does not in any way have to obey the Amarr Empire, the Empress, the Chamberlain, or anyone affiliated with them. They don't answer to the Amarr - they work with them.

That means they're not slaves, and they're not vassals. A vassal is someone whose authority and/or territory is received, either directly or indirectly by means of heredity, from a higher authority, and who receives that authority explicitly in exchange for service. The Caldari State has not received any of its authority from the Amarr, and I think even Pieter'd be shocked at the idea that the Empire's been giving them their territory all this time.

So, impartial fact: until you change what 'vassal' actually means, no, not vassals.
Legal Definition of Vassal State: A vassal state is a state that is supposed to possess and enjoy only those rights that are granted to it by a more powerful state. The term is seen used in the context of international law. A vassal state is any state that is subordinate to another. Being a vassal most commonly implies providing military assistance to the dominant state when requested to do so.

Dictionary Definition of vassal: a holder of land by feudal tenure on conditions of homage and allegiance.
synonyms: serf, dependent, servant, slave, subject, bondsman, thrall, villein;
More
a person or country in a subordinate position to another.
"a much stronger nation can also turn a weaker one into a vassal state"

Now unless I am reading this wrong the whole heredity point you are seemingly stuck upon is covered by the empress.

Point of fact the Caldari State is by definition clearly a vassal state of the amarr empire, they feared they could not hold their lands without support from the slavery cult. Subsequently if the slavery cult were to withdraw it's support they might indeed lose their empire if the Gallente are half as bad as the Caldari fear.

If they did not need the slavery cult to keep their state intact why did they affiliate?

You can't have it both ways, they either needed the protection of the slavery cult, or they offered to protect the bigger more powerful empire out of the admiration they hold for the slavers. Which one do you claim it to be?
The state is not a Vassal of the Amarrian Empire any more then we are a vassal of the Federation. The Caldari are not required to pay tribute, lend military support on demand, or give/receive territory at the behest of the Amarr. What the Amarrian Empire has with the state is commonly referred to as an "alliance":
Where in the dictionary definition of vassal or vassal state was there any mention of paying tribute? If you are adding terms that are not included in the definition why should we agree with your imagination? Vassal and Ally are not mutually exclusive terms, unfortunately they are all too interchangeable.

Yes up until military conflict erupted between the Republic and the Federation I would have to say by most of the definition we were indeed vassals. We became allies when we had the spine to engage in activities the Federation would not have approved, and stood ready to throw out the mutual assistance agreement and even engage in combat with Federation forces to further the goals of the Republic despite the Federations reservations.

Reality is not subject to opinions, it is what it is, like it or not.

If the Caldari State engages in direct military actions against the will of the slavery cult empire and stands on principles to further the good of the state against their objections then an argument can be made that they are more allies than vassals. That has not and will not happen because the Caldari have an almost genetic fear of the Gallente that disables them from standing up alone on their own feet. The Gallente bogeyman is always in the back of their minds lurking waiting to pounce.

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
Neph
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#222 - 2016-09-13 01:55:59 UTC
Matar Ronin wrote:
If the Caldari State engages in direct military actions against the will of the slavery cult empire and stands on principles to further the good of the state against their objections then an argument can be made that they are more allies than vassals. That has not and will not happen.


You forgot the Annaro scandal? And the CAESA ex-slave rehabilitation clauses? And the fact that everybody in the State really ******* hates slavery?

Matar Ronin wrote:
the Caldari have an almost genetic fear of the Gallente that disables them from standing up alone on their own feet.


Matar Ronin wrote:

Reality is not subject to opinions, it is what it is, like it or not.


Uh...

Matar Ronin wrote:
The Gallente bogeyman is always in the back of their minds lurking waiting to pounce.


Matar Ronin wrote:

Reality is not subject to opinions, it is what it is, like it or not.


Okay, now I know you're just trolling.

~ Gariushi YC110 // Midular YC115 // Yanala YC115 ~

"Orte Jaitovalte sitasuyti ne obuetsa useuut ishu. Ketsiak ishiulyn." -Yakiya Tovil-Toba-taisoka
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#223 - 2016-09-13 02:32:27 UTC
Whilst I'm a firm supporter of the Caldari Navy I'd hesitate to say that we could beat any other Empire under all conditions. What I will happily say is that any other single Empire that invades our space will bleed hullplating, atmosphere and corpsicles until driven out.

We do have, displacement-ton for displacement-ton, the most modernised, best trained and hardened space Navy of any of the Empires, but we have a bit of a force-projection problem and whilst we could possibly take any system in the Cluster it's not clear that we could hold it for any amount of time.

Anyway, clearly not a Vassal and just as clearly an Ally. The Empress doesn't make demands, she submits requests.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#224 - 2016-09-13 02:33:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
According to the dictionary I refer to (because of its reliability), the definition of 'Vassal' is as follow:

1. A holder of land by feudal tenure on conditions of homage and allegiance.
1.1 A person or country in a subordinate position to another

The other dictionary I refer to defines 'Vassal' as:

noun
1. (in the feudal system) a person granted the use of land, in return for rendering homage, fealty, and usually military service or its equivalent to a lord or other superior; feudal tenant.
2. a person holding some similar relation to a superior; a subject, subordinate, follower, or retainer.
3. a servant or slave.

Neither of these describes the relationship between the State and the Empire.

The State does not hold any land that belongs to the Empire, pretty much does their own thing with the occasional trade deals and military assistance rendered to the Empire, and swears no obligation whatsoever to the Empire except not attacking each other and get into each other's way. Historically, the Empire had not attempted to annex the State, made any demands on State properties and generally being conquering douchebags against the State, due to their treaties in the name of mutual defense (both sides were threatened and wouldn't want to open another possible war-front if they could help it. In fact, the only 'State' military assets I found rendering assistance to the Empire on a regular basis had been militia privateers, who are given the free rein to more or less do whatever the heck they want in the name of ruminations.

Matar Ronin, are you trying to become the Minmatar version of Diana Kim? At this point you are succeeding.

Also, before you get cute on the whole obligations thing, when we say 'homage', we usually meant tribute in the form of physical assets such as money, gifts, or men-at-arms. The State rendered none of these things out of obligation. Whenever they do give any of these, they get something of equal value in return. This, by the way, is not a homage, it's a trade.

Seriously, there are entire encyclopedia entries about the whole thing. Don't make us quote entire encyclopedia passages at you, you intellectually dishonest fanatic.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#225 - 2016-09-13 03:00:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Arrendis
Matar Ronin wrote:

Legal Definition of Vassal State: A vassal state is a state that is supposed to possess and enjoy only those rights that are granted to it by a more powerful state. The term is seen used in the context of international law. A vassal state is any state that is subordinate to another. Being a vassal most commonly implies providing military assistance to the dominant state when requested to do so.


And the Caldari State is not subordinate to the Amarr Empire. Full stop.

Quote:

Dictionary Definition of vassal: a holder of land by feudal tenure on conditions of homage and allegiance.
synonyms: serf, dependent, servant, slave, subject, bondsman, thrall, villein;
More
a person or country in a subordinate position to another.
"a much stronger nation can also turn a weaker one into a vassal state"


And again: they hold no land on condition of homage and allegiance. They are not in a subordinate position to the Empire. The Empire cannot give the State orders. They cannot, and do not, occupy a dominant position relative to the State.

Quote:

Point of fact the Caldari State is by definition clearly a vassal state of the amarr empire, they feared they could not hold their lands without support from the slavery cult. Subsequently if the slavery cult were to withdraw it's support they might indeed lose their empire if the Gallente are half as bad as the Caldari fear.

If they did not need the slavery cult to keep their state intact why did they affiliate?

You can't have it both ways, they either needed the protection of the slavery cult, or they offered to protect the bigger more powerful empire out of the admiration they hold for the slavers. Which one do you claim it to be?


Your twisted version of logic would make it impossible for any two nations to be allies. By your construction, the Republic is a 'vassal state' of the Federation. The Caldari State allied with the Amarr Empire out of mutual political and military necessity. If the two were not allied, the combined strength of the Republic and the Federation would be enough to outstrip either, just as the combined Empire/State military power would be enough to outgun either the Federation or the Republic.

Neither the State, nor the Empire, are in a position to give orders to the other. Neither one is in a subordinate position to the other. Relative strength is not the same as dominance. Thus, neither, even by your definition, is the other's vassal.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#226 - 2016-09-13 03:05:21 UTC
Neph wrote:
EDIT: Also, I think the Republic and the State would both stand to gain from greater economic ties. It's a first step to strengthening bonds with the Federation after that stupid war and also to bring the Republic into a stronger interclusteral position. Frankly, I think the more trade, the more peace. After all, you don't want to shoot the guy you're earning a living off of.


I completely agree - but the military balance of power prevents either side from seeking significant economic ties with the other.
Felise Selunix
Keyholder Investment Group
#227 - 2016-09-13 03:15:45 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Neph wrote:
EDIT: Also, I think the Republic and the State would both stand to gain from greater economic ties. It's a first step to strengthening bonds with the Federation after that stupid war and also to bring the Republic into a stronger interclusteral position. Frankly, I think the more trade, the more peace. After all, you don't want to shoot the guy you're earning a living off of.


I completely agree - but the military balance of power prevents either side from seeking significant economic ties with the other.


Well, at least the significant economic ties that show up on official ledgers at least Blink

The good thing about military stalemates is that it provides a stable platform upon which to maneuver in areas outside of obvious military issues, for the people in the know anyway. Perhaps a third party might be able to facilitate shall we say...non-traditional economic relationships?
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#228 - 2016-09-13 03:19:25 UTC
Felise Selunix wrote:
Arrendis wrote:
Neph wrote:
EDIT: Also, I think the Republic and the State would both stand to gain from greater economic ties. It's a first step to strengthening bonds with the Federation after that stupid war and also to bring the Republic into a stronger interclusteral position. Frankly, I think the more trade, the more peace. After all, you don't want to shoot the guy you're earning a living off of.


I completely agree - but the military balance of power prevents either side from seeking significant economic ties with the other.


Well, at least the significant economic ties that show up on official ledgers at least Blink

The good thing about military stalemates is that it provides a stable platform upon which to maneuver in areas outside of obvious military issues, for the people in the know anyway. Perhaps a third party might be able to facilitate shall we say...non-traditional economic relationships?


Such a third party already exists. It's called 'CONCORD'. CONCORD is also the reason why the cluster hasn't broken out into a full-fledged war, with hostilities confined to the lowsec systems under the Emergency Militia War Powers Act.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Matar Ronin
#229 - 2016-09-13 03:45:07 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
According to the dictionary I refer to (because of its reliability), the definition of 'Vassal' is as follow:

1. A holder of land by feudal tenure on conditions of homage and allegiance.
1.1 A person or country in a subordinate position to another

The other dictionary I refer to defines 'Vassal' as:

noun
1. (in the feudal system) a person granted the use of land, in return for rendering homage, fealty, and usually military service or its equivalent to a lord or other superior; feudal tenant.
2. a person holding some similar relation to a superior; a subject, subordinate, follower, or retainer.
3. a servant or slave.

Neither of these describes the relationship between the State and the Empire.

The State does not hold any land that belongs to the Empire, pretty much does their own thing with the occasional trade deals and military assistance rendered to the Empire, and swears no obligation whatsoever to the Empire except not attacking each other and get into each other's way. Historically, the Empire had not attempted to annex the State, made any demands on State properties and generally being conquering douchebags against the State, due to their treaties in the name of mutual defense (both sides were threatened and wouldn't want to open another possible war-front if they could help it. In fact, the only 'State' military assets I found rendering assistance to the Empire on a regular basis had been militia privateers, who are given the free rein to more or less do whatever the heck they want in the name of ruminations.

Matar Ronin, are you trying to become the Minmatar version of Diana Kim? At this point you are succeeding.

Also, before you get cute on the whole obligations thing, when we say 'homage', we usually meant tribute in the form of physical assets such as money, gifts, or men-at-arms. The State rendered none of these things out of obligation. Whenever they do give any of these, they get something of equal value in return. This, by the way, is not a homage, it's a trade.

Seriously, there are entire encyclopedia entries about the whole thing. Don't make us quote entire encyclopedia passages at you, you intellectually dishonest fanatic.
Comparing anyone to Diana Kim is beneath the level of conversation that makes the IGS a place to exchange ideas in. I put forth no race based frothing at the mouth statements like she is infamous for. If you disagree with what I am saying so be it, but to make a personal attack and comparison to a pariah is uncalled for and you should offer an apology.

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
Felise Selunix
Keyholder Investment Group
#230 - 2016-09-13 03:46:51 UTC
Matar Ronin wrote:
Needless to say there can be no normalization of relations with the slavery cultists in either the empire or the mandate while even one Matari is held in inhuman bondage. The current normal of killing them all until they free us all is the only path forward for any Matari with a spine and the training to fight back, certainly that includes every capsuleer.

The long struggle continues, with each day we are closer to the end of the foul abomination of human slavery in New Eden and we must not ever waiver in our resolve to see it totally eradicated. On the day Matari and amarrians can inhabit the cluster in peace because the slavery cultists no longer direct the efforts of the empire and it's vassals in the Mandate and Caldari State to perpetuate this evil upon any people is the day when normalization of relations will be possible, not one nanosecond before.

The long struggle is the righteous path upon which Matari people have tread since the "Day Of Darkness" when hell spawned barbarians bombarded our peaceful home worlds from their orbiting warships. They have tried to extinguish our culture, our history, our self esteem, over the centuries they have never completely succeeded, and they never will.

The state of the Matari People is strong and growing stronger, we are found in every Empire and our numbers continue to swell. Our cause is just and our supporters continue to rally to our side. We have improved our self governance in the Republic and continue to refine those best practices. Across the Cluster Matari people are still connected and will always be connected by the call for freedom, justice, and liberty for all of humanity.


Hm. Well, I thought I wanted all viewpoints, but maybe not. I would venture a bet that those 'slavery cultists' love you to pieces. As do casino owners and anyone with a quick con who's looking for a mark. I can't imagine that the Amarrians that care could have asked for an opponent with an attitude that would assure them victory.

And 'governance best practices' you say? A true renaissance man. Well Mr. Best Practices, I'm curious: How would you operate a viable public transportation system that could adequately serve a dense urban area and several isolated rural villages in a way that can ensure a stable trade node? What kind of tax policy would you come up with that would generate enough income without ticking off most of your major retailers and contractors while also ensuring that no one clan feels overly taxed?

For that matter, what sort of intertribal arbitration systems would you come up with for members of different clans who haven't trusted each other in generations and can always find something to bicker about because that's a thing that happens sometimes and it can crash a local economy in no time flat. What about pirate raids , or heck slavery raids? Any security options past 'blast a lot of folks?'

It's just that you seemed to be able to wax poetically about taking lives for several paragraphs, but when it came to the you know, actual governing part that tends to actually lead a nation to greener pastures, you didn't have much to say beyond the 'best practices bit.' So I was curious. Where do you think all of those ships come from, all of those people who die in those fleets while you biast Amarrians and get cloned if you have a bad day. What do you think goes wanting to supply your jingoistic playtime? Hm?

Sigh, I need a drink.
Matar Ronin
#231 - 2016-09-13 04:13:45 UTC
Felise Selunix wrote:
Matar Ronin wrote:
Needless to say there can be no normalization of relations with the slavery cultists in either the empire or the mandate while even one Matari is held in inhuman bondage. The current normal of killing them all until they free us all is the only path forward for any Matari with a spine and the training to fight back, certainly that includes every capsuleer.
The long struggle continues, with each day we are closer to the end of the foul abomination of human slavery in New Eden and we must not ever waiver in our resolve to see it totally eradicated. On the day Matari and amarrians can inhabit the cluster in peace because the slavery cultists no longer direct the efforts of the empire and it's vassals in the Mandate and Caldari State to perpetuate this evil upon any people is the day when normalization of relations will be possible, not one nanosecond before.
The long struggle is the righteous path upon which Matari people have tread since the "Day Of Darkness" when hell spawned barbarians bombarded our peaceful home worlds from their orbiting warships. They have tried to extinguish our culture, our history, our self esteem, over the centuries they have never completely succeeded, and they never will.
The state of the Matari People is strong and growing stronger, we are found in every Empire and our numbers continue to swell. Our cause is just and our supporters continue to rally to our side. We have improved our self governance in the Republic and continue to refine those best practices. Across the Cluster Matari people are still connected and will always be connected by the call for freedom, justice, and liberty for all of humanity.

Hm. Well, I thought I wanted all viewpoints, but maybe not. I would venture a bet that those 'slavery cultists' love you to pieces. As do casino owners and anyone with a quick con who's looking for a mark. I can't imagine that the Amarrians that care could have asked for an opponent with an attitude that would assure them victory.

And 'governance best practices' you say? A true renaissance man. Well Mr. Best Practices, I'm curious: How would you operate a viable public transportation system that could adequately serve a dense urban area and several isolated rural villages in a way that can ensure a stable trade node? What kind of tax policy would you come up with that would generate enough income without ticking off most of your major retailers and contractors while also ensuring that no one clan feels overly taxed?

For that matter, what sort of intertribal arbitration systems would you come up with for members of different clans who haven't trusted each other in generations and can always find something to bicker about because that's a thing that happens sometimes and it can crash a local economy in no time flat. What about pirate raids , or heck slavery raids? Any security options past 'blast a lot of folks?'

It's just that you seemed to be able to wax poetically about taking lives for several paragraphs, but when it came to the you know, actual governing part that tends to actually lead a nation to greener pastures, you didn't have much to say beyond the 'best practices bit.' So I was curious. Where do you think all of those ships come from, all of those people who die in those fleets while you biast Amarrians and get cloned if you have a bad day. What do you think goes wanting to supply your jingoistic playtime? Hm?

Sigh, I need a drink.
Wow, so because I said things you did not like and or expect you blast away at my response?

Let us recap: Your OP asked

At this moment in history, I thought it might be a good time for we of the Matari diaspora to stop and take stock and share our thoughts about where we're headed. Over the past century, the Republic has grown prosp...well, it's been established at least and in that time, we've seen many important international events, the most recent being the Elder War.

At the same time, several factors remain important--relations with the Gallente, Amarr, Ammatar, and Caldari neighbors, relations with CONCORD all remain in flux. Alongside that, there is the increasing status of tribes within the Republican government under Shakor's administration and the continued repatriation of Starkmanir and Nefantar into the Republic, not to mention the experiences of individuals and whole clans that exist outside of the Republic, (and Empire Space for that matter) which of course, comprise the majority of Matari.

So taking all of that into account, along with wider intergalactic events, I was wondering what other Matari thought of the state of the race. What important factors need to be addressed? Where should we be going as a people?

Offhand, I can say my main concern is continuing to strengthen and modernize the Republic economy in order to become a bigger player in international market activity. However, I think that this must happen in accordance with tribal values, which sounds like a contradiction, but doesn't necessarily strike me as one. I also believe that the Republic has to continue to grow and change in order to accommodate our returning Matari in such a way that incorporates their assets while incorporating them into what I consider to be a burgeoning culture. Finally, I think that the Republic must normalize relations with the Empire and the Mandate in order to expand the market for Minstar goods (under favorable conditions, of course).

When you didn't like my response (see it above) you then brought forth a new laundry basket of items that every capsuleer running for leader of the Republic should answer. (also see it above) That is a position I must confess I am not running for. If you wanted a thread full of what are your gripes with the current Republic perhaps you should have asked that directly. It is really not admirable to ask for opinions and then blast away at them when they are posted.

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
Tabor Murn
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#232 - 2016-09-13 04:16:26 UTC
And I thought my opinions were going to stir up a hornet's nest.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#233 - 2016-09-13 04:17:10 UTC
Also-- I could be wrong about this, but, aren't Caldari stations sometimes found in Republic space? Like, Kaalakiota, even?

Mr. Ronin? I'd like to add my voice to others here: the Caldari State's not a vassal power. The Amarrian religion can't even be openly practiced there (and only Khanid Kingdom subjects can even safely practice it in private).

The Caldari are extremely protective of their way of life. That's not really compatible with being a subject power to anyone.





Also-- this is kind of a small thing, but, it seems like clarification might be important-- since Mr. Egivand brought up the full list of definitions for "vassal?" When talking about the Empire it might be a good idea to use the word "vassal" narrowly, because it actually means something formal and specific here. The Imperial system is pretty much feudal, after all.
Matar Ronin
#234 - 2016-09-13 04:49:55 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Also-- I could be wrong about this, but, aren't Caldari stations sometimes found in Republic space? Like, Kaalakiota, even?

Mr. Ronin? I'd like to add my voice to others here: the Caldari State's not a vassal power. The Amarrian religion can't even be openly practiced there (and only Khanid Kingdom subjects can even safely practice it in private).

The Caldari are extremely protective of their way of life. That's not really compatible with being a subject power to anyone.





Also-- this is kind of a small thing, but, it seems like clarification might be important-- since Mr. Egivand brought up the full list of definitions for "vassal?" When talking about the Empire it might be a good idea to use the word "vassal" narrowly, because it actually means something formal and specific here. The Imperial system is pretty much feudal, after all.
Pilot Jenneth as well traveled as you are you certainly know and would probably agree, semantics are often a matter of perspective. One person's freedom fighter is another person's terrorist, without any substantial change in their actions.

By any fair clear eyed unemotional examination of the actual differences between a vassal state and the Caldari State reveal they are simply patriotic window dressings. The Big Eight in the Caldari State own 90% of the land, fact. So tying the modern definition of vassal to land holdings is pointless for the vast amount of the population, so the vassal state is the definition that best applies, and it fits quite well. If the Cadari dislike how it sounds they should express that to their corporate ruling class and have them change policy because that is the way it looks from the outside.

It is unpopular to say, yes I know that, but it does not personally insult any individual capsuleer. It is not a race based comment, and it is not an incitement to war. I point that out because many other posts do all those things and because they are popular to say about other groups here on IGS it is okay, for them.

Sometimes we have to take off the rose colored glasses and see things for what they are.

It would be an enjoyable change if some other capsuleers tried more often to persuade and or educate about what they think is the strength of their opinions instead of resorting to personal attacks and clumsy attempts at wordsmithing.

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#235 - 2016-09-13 05:14:39 UTC
Matar Ronin wrote:
Pilot Jenneth as well traveled as you are you certainly know and would probably agree, semantics are often a matter of perspective. One person's freedom fighter is another person's terrorist, without any substantial change in their actions.


Well-- yes....

Quote:
By any fair clear eyed unemotional examination of the actual differences between a vassal state and the Caldari State reveal they are simply patriotic window dressings. The Big Eight in the Caldari State own 90% of the land, fact. So tying the modern definition of vassal to land holdings is pointless for the vast amount of the population, so the vassal state is the definition that best applies, and it fits quite well. If the Cadari dislike how it sounds they should express that to their corporate ruling class and have them change policy because that is the way it looks from the outside.


Aaaaaah-- if you're saying that the Caldari are vassals to the State, or, rather, to the megacorporations, I might say-- sort of?

The State can be described as a corporate feudal state, with subsidiaries for fiefdoms, executives for lords, and employees for commoners, but-- it's more an analogy than an accurate description because it falls apart in a bunch of places. Upward and downward mobility are both a lot easier than they are in a feudal system, for example.

You can argue it that way, though.

If you're saying, as you seemed to be, that the Caldari are vassals to the Amarr?

... No. They're really not. If you don't believe me try setting up (while baselining; capsuleers can get away with murder, and I should know) an Amarrian mission in, say, Lonetrek. (I know you don't think much of the Amarrian faith; this is just a thought experiment, but, if you insist on really trying it, feel free?)

You can probably do it if you get permission, found a small, isolated community and keep to yourselves. ... but that would defeat the purpose of a mission, so-- try reaching out to the local Caldari, and see how long it takes the local megacorporate security force to evict you.

Probably? "Not long."
Matar Ronin
#236 - 2016-09-13 05:37:53 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Matar Ronin wrote:
Pilot Jenneth as well traveled as you are you certainly know and would probably agree, semantics are often a matter of perspective. One person's freedom fighter is another person's terrorist, without any substantial change in their actions.


Well-- yes....

Quote:
By any fair clear eyed unemotional examination of the actual differences between a vassal state and the Caldari State reveal they are simply patriotic window dressings. The Big Eight in the Caldari State own 90% of the land, fact. So tying the modern definition of vassal to land holdings is pointless for the vast amount of the population, so the vassal state is the definition that best applies, and it fits quite well. If the Cadari dislike how it sounds they should express that to their corporate ruling class and have them change policy because that is the way it looks from the outside.


Aaaaaah-- if you're saying that the Caldari are vassals to the State, or, rather, to the megacorporations, I might say-- sort of?

The State can be described as a corporate feudal state, with subsidiaries for fiefdoms, executives for lords, and employees for commoners, but-- it's more an analogy than an accurate description because it falls apart in a bunch of places. Upward and downward mobility are both a lot easier than they are in a feudal system, for example.

You can argue it that way, though.

If you're saying, as you seemed to be, that the Caldari are vassals to the Amarr?

... No. They're really not. If you don't believe me try setting up (while baselining; capsuleers can get away with murder, and I should know) an Amarrian mission in, say, Lonetrek. (I know you don't think much of the Amarrian faith; this is just a thought experiment, but, if you insist on really trying it, feel free?)

You can probably do it if you get permission, found a small, isolated community and keep to yourselves. ... but that would defeat the purpose of a mission, so-- try reaching out to the local Caldari, and see how long it takes the local megacorporate security force to evict you.

Probably? "Not long."
The stain of murder is upon us all, not just you Pilot Jenneth, not just you.

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#237 - 2016-09-13 05:49:19 UTC
Matar Ronin wrote:

By any fair clear eyed unemotional examination of the actual differences between a vassal state and the Caldari State reveal they are simply patriotic window dressings. The Big Eight in the Caldari State own 90% of the land, fact. So tying the modern definition of vassal to land holdings is pointless for the vast amount of the population, so the vassal state is the definition that best applies, and it fits quite well. If the Cadari dislike how it sounds they should express that to their corporate ruling class and have them change policy because that is the way it looks from the outside.


I'm sorry, but you were just trying to claim the Caldari State is a "vassal state" of the Amarr, not an entity where the internal power structure was one of vassalage.

And even there, you're off, because in fact, the majority of corporations are subsidiaries of the Big Eight. Those that have towers on moons without being directly affiliated are licensees - which means there's no fealty involved, only rental fees. If you want to call that 'vassalage', then you're pretty much expanding the term to more or less mean every relationship where one party is answerable to another. After all, your parents give you 'land' - a place to stay - when you're young, in exchange for obedience.

So not only are you trying to say you were claiming something completely different than your actual claims, you're also obfuscating and twisting the meanings of words to do it.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#238 - 2016-09-13 05:53:11 UTC
Matar Ronin wrote:
The stain of murder is upon us all, not just you Pilot Jenneth, not just you.


Not to put too fine a point on it, Mr. Ronin?

I'm a kinslayer. As in, a parricide (broadly construed-- I killed my grandfather. Well, my predecessor did, but I'm not at all sure amnesia gets you off the hook for something like that). Even for a capsuleer, that's a little unusual.

Admittedly I do steer clear of the jurisdiction where the authorities might be tempted to toss the rules just this once. Sadly, that jurisdiction is Achura, my homeworld, so the net effect is exile.

As a matter of courtesy, and respect for the bereaved, I don't think it would be right for me to go back there anyway.
Matar Ronin
#239 - 2016-09-13 06:16:54 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Matar Ronin wrote:

By any fair clear eyed unemotional examination of the actual differences between a vassal state and the Caldari State reveal they are simply patriotic window dressings. The Big Eight in the Caldari State own 90% of the land, fact. So tying the modern definition of vassal to land holdings is pointless for the vast amount of the population, so the vassal state is the definition that best applies, and it fits quite well. If the Cadari dislike how it sounds they should express that to their corporate ruling class and have them change policy because that is the way it looks from the outside.


I'm sorry, but you were just trying to claim the Caldari State is a "vassal state" of the Amarr, not an entity where the internal power structure was one of vassalage.

And even there, you're off, because in fact, the majority of corporations are subsidiaries of the Big Eight. Those that have towers on moons without being directly affiliated are licensees - which means there's no fealty involved, only rental fees. If you want to call that 'vassalage', then you're pretty much expanding the term to more or less mean every relationship where one party is answerable to another. After all, your parents give you 'land' - a place to stay - when you're young, in exchange for obedience.

So not only are you trying to say you were claiming something completely different than your actual claims, you're also obfuscating and twisting the meanings of words to do it.
Just perhaps you misunderstand or I say it poorly. I am referring to a vassal state arrangement, between the Big Eight and the slavery cult empire. The Caldari State system does not allow for the citizens to have direct input on how the megacorps run the government. The terms of the mutual aide agrrement has never been distributed, no one here on IGS can provide a full copy but many here will say that the empress makes requests and does not make demands, lol. Offered by someone who clearly has had little direct involvement with amarr holders and the ruling class. Basing vassalage on land for individuals would undermine the Caldari system from the point of view of the megacorps so that is not going to happen again. Lesson learned from Mordu.

If the slavery cultists were offering land to the Big Eight, baseliners and capsuleers would be hard pressed to learn of it, not exactly a vigorous free press in the Caldari State. What we do know is that the Caldari State needed an ally and the slavery cultists view everyone else as body and souls to reclaim for their sadistic evil diety. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out how this will end, even though I must admit I actually am a rocket scientists, lol.

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
Felise Selunix
Keyholder Investment Group
#240 - 2016-09-13 06:26:28 UTC
Matar Ronin wrote:
When you didn't like my response (see it above) you then brought forth a new laundry basket of items that every capsuleer running for leader of the Republic should answer. (also see it above) That is a position I must confess I am not running for. If you wanted a thread full of what are your gripes with the current Republic perhaps you should have asked that directly. It is really not admirable to ask for opinions and then blast away at them when they are posted.


Now that I've had a couple of nice cocktails, I'll try to explain my position.

First, I didn't like you're response and I was pretty clear as to why. In my eyes, that constitutes discussion. Sometimes it's a bit sharper than others, as you might have seen throughout this discussion thus far. Passions run high, and quite frankly when you start off a post talking about the glory of killing others, some people might have strong opinions about that. I get that you don't like that and I don't blame you, but thems the breaks. As for me, I'm a weapons dealer who twists every deal for the most isk and who will generally sell to anyone. Some people might find this offensive, and if they told me so after I started talking about it, I guess I'd have to take it on the chin.

Since we're recapping, the reason that I gave you that 'laundry basket' was because of how you ended your original statement

Matar Ronin wrote:
The state of the Matari People is strong and growing stronger, we are found in every Empire and our numbers continue to swell. Our cause is just and our supporters continue to rally to our side. We have improved our self governance in the Republic and continue to refine those best practices. Across the Cluster Matari people are still connected and will always be connected by the call for freedom, justice, and liberty for all of humanity.


While this sounds great, I suspected (accurately apparently) that you didn't have the slightest clue about the people, the structures, or the Republic that you claim to be fighting for. All of those 'items that every capsuleer running for leader of the Republic should answer' are the everyday problems that our people solve to keep our Republic going. They're the items that create the infrastructure necessary to create the bullets, bombs, ships and stations that make your glorious war possible. They're the people who give their kin and family to fill those ships that fly with you. The point is that the Republic is not just some platform for an endless fight with the Empire, it's a functioning nation full of clans and tribes who have plenty of hopes and dreams for where we go as a Republic, or whatever we're becoming. I would bet that many of us want to see an end to slavery in the Empire, but if you look around, people also want a better future for the their clans and tribes irrespective of the slavery situation. I'm just tired of people who seem to think that all we're still just a Rebellion, when we've been much more than that for over a century.

My dad's the Commandant of a military academy on Magiko, and so over my lifetime, I've seen a lot of people come and go who say the same things that you've been saying. It's all 'Down with the Empire!' 'Avenge the Day of Darkness!' 'Free the Slaves with Empire Blood!' That sort of thing. They give my dad a headache because he knows that they're the most likely to put their crews or fellow soldiers in danger, the last to look for any strategy that doesn't involve heavy casualties, and the most willing to make dumb, unnecessary sacrifices that ultimately hurt them in the long run. Worst of all, these are the soldiers who tend to have the least respect for the logistics, effort, and sacrifice that it takes to support their efforts, which I suppose is why they often feel comfortable taking extreme and untenable positions about politics, diplomacy, etc. I imagine that they know they don't have to care about these things because someone else will take care of it; that all of their war toys will just appear out of nowhere.

War costs, and while it can't always be avoided, I think it's best to acknowledge that those resources are hard earned and to use them wisely. I don't care if you know every nook and cranny of governance, to be honest, I might have been jivving about some of those examples. The point was that they deserved more than an after mention in a long monologue about the glories of war and, in my mind, simplistic analysis of international diplomacy.

Look, I dunno. Maybe you're not the type of person that I described above, I just met you. You seem like a patriotic fella and if I mischaracterized you, I'm sorry. But if you really think that a long war of attrition with the Empire is going to bring peace, victory, of universal emancipation, all I can say is that I hope you don't run into any scammers or grifters anytime soon.