These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Intergalactic Summit

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

An actual discussion about the Empire and the Federation

Author
Tressith Sefira
Nadire Security Consultants
Federation Peacekeepers
#41 - 2016-09-01 02:38:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Tressith Sefira
James Syagrius wrote:
Good afternoon.

I have a profound and abiding love for the Empire, despite her sins, as I do for our Federal Union.

I was delighted to see this thread. I supposed it overdue as I have long advocated for closer relations between our two great civilisations.

It started well and now due to familiar equivocations has descended into the zealot's charge. But no matter.


Let's find time to talk together off of the forums away from the rude angry people who kill discussion. I've learned my lesson here too.
Lord Kailethre
Tengoo Uninstallation Service
#42 - 2016-09-01 04:05:01 UTC
So the troll thread develops some actual discussion and the actual discussion thread gets trolled.
What tasteless irony.
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#43 - 2016-09-01 06:20:54 UTC
Tressith Sefira wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:
You say there is beauty in the Fedration? Godlessness is seldom beautiful and when it is, it is the work of the Deceiver.


So my take away here is that you hate the Federation more than you love the Empire because when given the choice between going wax poetic about the Empire and insulting the Federation you picked the latter. Is that true or do you have more to offer this conversation?


I've found that statements that begin with "I'm not trolling, I swear, I promise" are invariably the prelude to something designed to provoke and as such don't warrant a detailed analysis.


Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori

Ayallah
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#44 - 2016-09-01 06:34:48 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Money is power, Ayallah
A fallacy, a pretty saying people share because it sounds true. A man with no money can command the respect of armies. A man with infinite wealth can find his friends evaporate despite his protests and promises.

Power is power. Money is a currency.

Arrendis wrote:
Yes, I know. We all know. The never-born children of the Jove know. You tell everyone all about it at absolutely every opportunity.

"Hello, Ayallah, what did you have for breakfast?"
"Gruel. I have eaten gruel every morning since I began my training as a soldier at age six. That is why all others in the cluster are inferior beings who can never understand my greatness."

Kinda why I was intentionally distorting it. You should try finding a 'scorn and mockery' skillbook sometime.
Find me someone I have told a single story of my past to Arrendis. You strawman hard. I make no secret of who I am, but others are far faster to say who I am than I am. In this very thread it was Zekiel and you who brought it up, not me. And in none of this do I tell war stories or tell stories of eating gruel. You are more sure to let someone who you are speaking with know you are a goon than I am to let them know I am a Kamiera. You are far more likely to share some story than I am. I do not care however, I realize it is who you are and it is difficult to speak around it. You have to actively avoid mentioning anything that may indicate who you are for someone to not put two and two together and say you are a diehard goon. If now that is what is mocking worthy, to be who you are, then so be it. We will all have plenty of entertainment parodying each other endlessly if that is what you wish to fill your time with.

Like the idea that money is power however, I promise that in the end you will find its pursuit a waste of time.

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.

Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#45 - 2016-09-01 06:46:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Ayallah, armies do not arm themselves if they aren't funded. In a sense, money is a form of power. Assuming that two warring nations have the same level of tech, the one with the most money and most sense in spending said money properly has more power.

Money locked away in a vault, never to be used for anything, however, is worth nothing.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#46 - 2016-09-01 16:12:17 UTC
Tressith Sefira wrote:
Over here, the people generally have the same kinda opinion towards the Federation as I figure most border areas do for all empires. Amused apathy.

This is unacceptable! The war is going on, peoples are dying because of the fascism and aggression of the Federation. And people must know what we are fighting for... And what we are fighting against.

The righteous hatred, hatred to those who disregard lives so easily, who torture, conquer and subjugate like Federals, is necessary in all parts of Space. People shall learn about hideous crimes of Federation, of its corrupted government and bloodlust soldiers, who genocide whole colonies, about their inhuman jailors, who torture POWs, and of course about their ideals (like freedom and democracy) that destroy civilization and humanity!

We can't defeat the Federation if we close our eyes on truth and will listen to their propaganda. Our main weapon is KNOWLEDGE. Knowledge about WHO they are and WHAT they are doing.

Know the enemy!

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

William Danneskjold
#47 - 2016-09-01 16:22:17 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Tressith Sefira wrote:
Over here, the people generally have the same kinda opinion towards the Federation as I figure most border areas do for all empires. Amused apathy.

This is unacceptable! The war is going on, peoples are dying because of the fascism and aggression of the Federation. And people must know what we are fighting for... And what we are fighting against.

The righteous hatred, hatred to those who disregard lives so easily, who torture, conquer and subjugate like Federals, is necessary in all parts of Space. People shall learn about hideous crimes of Federation, of its corrupted government and bloodlust soldiers, who genocide whole colonies, about their inhuman jailors, who torture POWs, and of course about their ideals (like freedom and democracy) that destroy civilization and humanity!

We can't defeat the Federation if we close our eyes on truth and will listen to their propaganda. Our main weapon is KNOWLEDGE. Knowledge about WHO they are and WHAT they are doing.

Know the enemy!


Are you so blind as to believe that the Fedaration is the only perpetrator of cultural imperialism and unwarranted aggression? I pity you. There is no reason to come in with your violent rhetoric if you cannot present your ideas in a sane and cultured fashion. Be gone, troll.

War is murder. It always has been, always will be. Murder in the name of God. Freedom. Your country. Whatever it is, it is murder. I am already against the next set of wars.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#48 - 2016-09-01 16:27:49 UTC
William Danneskjold wrote:

Are you so blind as to believe that the Fedaration is the only perpetrator of cultural imperialism and unwarranted aggression? I pity you. There is no reason to come in with your violent rhetoric if you cannot present your ideas in a sane and cultured fashion. Be gone, troll.

And here, dear readers, we can witness a typical gallentean bootlicking pet, who, instead of even trying to join a conversation, attacks Caldaro officers who participate in it.

I can recommend in order to maintain the conversation as sane and cultured, to block further transmission, coming from this Danneskjold person. It is quite obvious that he is unable to contribute in healthy way.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

William Danneskjold
#49 - 2016-09-01 16:33:00 UTC
Right. I'll make a note on your file that reads 'blind follower'.

Back on topic.

The Federation, for whatever reason, feels a need to violate its most basic tenet of 'you are free to live how you want'. It should amend it to 'as long as you meet our approval'. Blasters and drones for those who don't conform. I have seen it over and over throughout history, and even in my own lifetime. I would like to see both the Empire and Federation stripped of their imperialistic attitudes, and see where the culture goes from there. The chaos of the Federation is its own beauty, in stark contrast to the beauty of the ordered, stark lines of the State and its culture. The two complement each other, as the Empire's blistering unity contrasts with the Republic's assortment of tribes.

I would see the Federation reformed without its 'we will purge you if you do not conform' military, and without Roden's push for more engines of war. But then, I'm just an idealist.

War is murder. It always has been, always will be. Murder in the name of God. Freedom. Your country. Whatever it is, it is murder. I am already against the next set of wars.

Luna Hanaya
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#50 - 2016-09-01 16:35:04 UTC
Lord Kailethre wrote:
So the troll thread develops some actual discussion and the actual discussion thread gets trolled.
What tasteless irony.

Danneskjolded.

((

If you are a roleplayer, please join official CCP channels ingame for roleplayers and support roleplaying community:

Intergalactic Summit - IC router

Out of Character - channel for discussion of roleplay, live events and lore

))

William Danneskjold
#51 - 2016-09-01 16:42:44 UTC
Luna Hanaya wrote:
Lord Kailethre wrote:
So the troll thread develops some actual discussion and the actual discussion thread gets trolled.
What tasteless irony.

Danneskjolded.


If you buy me a pair of Mirelle glasses, I can look even more smug while doing it. I misplaced my fortune from when I was active five years ago.

War is murder. It always has been, always will be. Murder in the name of God. Freedom. Your country. Whatever it is, it is murder. I am already against the next set of wars.

Lord Kailethre
Tengoo Uninstallation Service
#52 - 2016-09-01 16:47:49 UTC
And now Diana Kim comes out of the woodwork to dirty the thread up some more with her ceaseless racism against the Gallente. Truly, this thread is a masterwork of what the IGS can accomplish.
William Danneskjold
#53 - 2016-09-01 16:49:18 UTC
You're but a fair summer child. In my day, posts of that quality were accompanied by 15,000 characters and declarations of impotent sputtering and war. I lost a corporation to that. Posts that a person could roll up and fire from a Quad 3500mm Artillery cannon. It was a terrifying day. You understand not what you missed.

War is murder. It always has been, always will be. Murder in the name of God. Freedom. Your country. Whatever it is, it is murder. I am already against the next set of wars.

Luna Hanaya
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#54 - 2016-09-01 16:54:04 UTC
William Danneskjold wrote:
Luna Hanaya wrote:
Lord Kailethre wrote:
So the troll thread develops some actual discussion and the actual discussion thread gets trolled.
What tasteless irony.

Danneskjolded.


If you buy me a pair of Mirelle glasses, I can look even more smug while doing it. I misplaced my fortune from when I was active five years ago.

I am neither interested in how you look, nor what you write. Be gone, troll.

((

If you are a roleplayer, please join official CCP channels ingame for roleplayers and support roleplaying community:

Intergalactic Summit - IC router

Out of Character - channel for discussion of roleplay, live events and lore

))

William Danneskjold
#55 - 2016-09-01 16:55:46 UTC
Considering I'm the chief contributor to a conversation in a sea of trolls, I'll assume Diana hired you and ignore you from here on out.

War is murder. It always has been, always will be. Murder in the name of God. Freedom. Your country. Whatever it is, it is murder. I am already against the next set of wars.

Tressith Sefira
Nadire Security Consultants
Federation Peacekeepers
#56 - 2016-09-01 16:56:17 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Tressith Sefira wrote:
Over here, the people generally have the same kinda opinion towards the Federation as I figure most border areas do for all empires. Amused apathy.

This is unacceptable! The war is going on, peoples are dying because of the fascism and aggression of the Federation. And people must know what we are fighting for... And what we are fighting against.

The righteous hatred, hatred to those who disregard lives so easily, who torture, conquer and subjugate like Federals, is necessary in all parts of Space. People shall learn about hideous crimes of Federation, of its corrupted government and bloodlust soldiers, who genocide whole colonies, about their inhuman jailors, who torture POWs, and of course about their ideals (like freedom and democracy) that destroy civilization and humanity!

We can't defeat the Federation if we close our eyes on truth and will listen to their propaganda. Our main weapon is KNOWLEDGE. Knowledge about WHO they are and WHAT they are doing.

Know the enemy!


See, Miss Kim. Maybe we can agree on a few things. You feel a sense of duty that pushes you to the front lines to fight for your country, yes? Have you ever been anywhere except the front lines?

In the Federation, most civilians aren't fighting on the front lines. Most civilians aren't fighting at all. I doubt most Federation civilians care about the Federation much at all; I've said it before, but the overwhelming majority of Federation citizens don't speak Gallente. I mean like 60-80% of Federation citizens don't speak Gallente. Each member state mostly retains their own form of government from before they got their invitation from the Federation, and I know I've said this before - Caille is a Kingdom! No one seems to know that. Most Federation citizens don't consider themselves Gallente and instead think of themselves as citizens of their planetary government, member state first.

My point being is that they don't really care about the Federation, mostly because the Federation don't stick their nebs into their business, I think, but prolly because they've got more important things to worry about.

How often do you go planetside, Captain? The war seems so far away in the caves of Ainaille I or the alleys of artificial habitats in Esmes, especially when the average citizen here has other things to worry about. In our Omegas... They may not be members of the Federation anymore, but they were once before we failed them. They must worry about corporate slavery. They must worry about starvation. They must worry about gang violence. Even in Gammas and Deltas, the war seems so, what's the word. Distant. Bigger more immediate concerns? Gang violence. Tech disparities. Frankly I care more about getting the hospitals on my planet in my Delta up to snuff with the quality that you'd find in the Core Federation planets than the war, which I've never participated in even with my status as a DUSTer.

And you might think it's easy to hate a group of people you don't know. But hate's a matter of caring - the opposite of love isn't hate, it's indifference. I can't relate. The average citizen of the Federation just don't care.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#57 - 2016-09-01 17:28:59 UTC
Tressith Sefira wrote:

See, Miss Kim. Maybe we can agree on a few things. You feel a sense of duty that pushes you to the front lines to fight for your country, yes? Have you ever been anywhere except the front lines?

In the Federation, most civilians aren't fighting on the front lines. Most civilians aren't fighting at all. I doubt most Federation civilians care about the Federation much at all; I've said it before, but the overwhelming majority of Federation citizens don't speak Gallente. I mean like 60-80% of Federation citizens don't speak Gallente. Each member state mostly retains their own form of government from before they got their invitation from the Federation, and I know I've said this before - Caille is a Kingdom! No one seems to know that. Most Federation citizens don't consider themselves Gallente and instead think of themselves as citizens of their planetary government, member state first.

My point being is that they don't really care about the Federation, mostly because the Federation don't stick their nebs into their business, I think, but prolly because they've got more important things to worry about.

How often do you go planetside, Captain? The war seems so far away in the caves of Ainaille I or the alleys of artificial habitats in Esmes, especially when the average citizen here has other things to worry about. In our Omegas... They may not be members of the Federation anymore, but they were once before we failed them. They must worry about corporate slavery. They must worry about starvation. They must worry about gang violence. Even in Gammas and Deltas, the war seems so, what's the word. Distant. Bigger more immediate concerns? Gang violence. Tech disparities. Frankly I care more about getting the hospitals on my planet in my Delta up to snuff with the quality that you'd find in the Core Federation planets than the war, which I've never participated in even with my status as a DUSTer.

And you might think it's easy to hate a group of people you don't know. But hate's a matter of caring - the opposite of love isn't hate, it's indifference. I can't relate. The average citizen of the Federation just don't care.

Hate is not opposite of Love. Hate is the product of love. The more you love something, the more you want to protect it. And the more you want to protect it, the more you hate what tries to hurt it.

As for the indifference, I agree, it is the opposite of love. Indifference is one of the worst vices of the humanity. And we, Caldari, don't appreciate it, just like we don't appreciate individualism. Humans were forged to live in societies and help each other.

Unfortunately... I do know this group of people. There was time when I didn't know them - and I thought about gallente as funny and weird people. Actually, when we visited the Federation by exchange to train together I was even thinking I'd like to stay there forever.

I have knowledge about what I am speaking, and my eyes were opened on them even before the war has started. I never knew people could be such violent to others only because they are of different bloodline... I don't think thouh I want to continue this direction of the conversation.

I am happy however that there are a lot of people in the Federation who don't consider themselves gallente and Federal. I hope they won't commit racial crimes, they deserve to live in a better world that isn't controlled by Federal fascists.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

William Danneskjold
#58 - 2016-09-01 17:34:02 UTC
You would agree with me, too, then, when I say that the Federation participates in a particularly insidious and effective cultural imperialism?

War is murder. It always has been, always will be. Murder in the name of God. Freedom. Your country. Whatever it is, it is murder. I am already against the next set of wars.

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#59 - 2016-09-01 17:40:24 UTC
William Danneskjold wrote:
You would agree with me, too, then, when I say that the Federation participates in a particularly insidious and effective cultural imperialism?


It is far less effective than it once was - perhaps because it became too obvious. Many cultures are now lost in it's coils, not noticing that Gallente really means Garoun until they were so enmeshed that they couldn't escape - I refer to the Mannar, the Jin-Mei and many others.

The Intaki, though, I think possess the strength to regain their independence. And the Caldari, of course, are the Caldari.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

William Danneskjold
#60 - 2016-09-01 17:41:58 UTC  |  Edited by: William Danneskjold
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
William Danneskjold wrote:
You would agree with me, too, then, when I say that the Federation participates in a particularly insidious and effective cultural imperialism?


It is far less effective than it once was - perhaps because it became too obvious. Many cultures are now lost in it's coils, not noticing that Gallente really means Garoun until they were so enmeshed that they couldn't escape - I refer to the Mannar, the Jin-Mei and many others.

The Intaki, though, I think possess the strength to regain their independence. And the Caldari, of course, are the Caldari.


I fought for the Federation for roughly a week. It was more than enough for me. Now I make sure to visit the war memorial on Caldari Prime at least once a week to remind myself of the horrors of aggression and war.

War is murder. It always has been, always will be. Murder in the name of God. Freedom. Your country. Whatever it is, it is murder. I am already against the next set of wars.