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Dev Blog: Introducing Clone States & the Future of Access to EVE

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Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#1341 - 2016-09-13 20:20:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Ashterothi wrote:
Cearain wrote:
I know not everything is set in stone and that is the reason for this post.

Based on the skills they gave so far Gallente alphas looks like they will be either more powerful, or much more powerful than all the other alphas.

First there is the issue of drone skills. Gallente and Amarr both have much better drone skills than minmatar or caldari alphas. Caldari and minmatar have gun and missile skills. Which seems balanced unless you play eve. People rarely if ever use both guns and missiles on the same ship. But they almost always use both guns and drones. When you look at a gnosis this means Amarr and Gallente will have about 2xs the dps as caldari or minmatar. This is a huge disparity.

Second is the gallente industrial skill. CCP has not said what will happen with pi. If you have an omega clone set up multiple pi systems what happens when your subscription lapses? CCP has not directly answered this but they have given some vague notions that they may leave them running. If you have ever tried to extract pi skills you know ccp doesn't really have a handle on what pi you have running. Ok so *if* they allow pi to continue to be farmed (or can't prevent it for technical reasons) then the epithal will be a huge benefit for gallente.

I started my characters years ago with the assurance that race didn't matter. The 2 things I mention above matter allot.

What can be done? Lots of things.

Eg.,
1) allow characters to choose the racial skills they want as an alpha. or

2) give all races the same drone bonuses (either the lower ones or the better ones whatever)

3) Don't allow alphas to continue pi set ups that only omegas can start. or

4) if you do then at least let all races have access to the epithal.

There are plenty of other things that can address these problems but I just want to make sure ccp is ahead of the game on this.

edit: feel free to mention in this thread any other race imbalance issues.


First off before anything else it is important to remember that having a character of a certain race now is a commitment. In this new world there will be no reason to not have all four races as alpha if you so want to. I for one plan to start 4 new accounts to have one of each. So the notion of having to balance them is irrelevant. If the Gnosis flys better with Gallente pilots then dedicated alpha pilots who want to use Gnosis will just start as Gallente. The race never mattered before, and it stops mattering if you ever decide to go Omega.

As far as better drone skills, most T1 cruiser down stick pretty tight to the racial theme.

The Bantam has 5m3 drone capacity, which is really just to get on kills, and isn't part of it "purpose"
The Heron gets 15 mbit bandwidth but again isn't a combat ship, most of the time those will be ewar drones, or killing defenseless targets
The Griffin gets 5m3 and again, isn't really the point of the ship, and you have plenty of combat capability and disabling solo enemies.
Osprey has 20m3 and is the same as the Bantam
Blackbird has 10m3 and is the same as the Griffin

Of these the only one even potentially impacted by having only Drone III is the Osprey

Interestingly this argument affects the Caracle and the Moa, notably the combat cruisers for the Caldari.
https://o.smium.org/loadout/103238

Less than 10% of the total damage is the drones, and even then a max skilled Caldari pilot will field the full 2 drones the Caracal has. This makes the actual damage difference from the drones to be almost negligible. However for ships bonused for Drones (such as Amarr and Gallente) the difference between having or not having those skills can be the difference between not having Missile Projectile or Missile Bombardment. .


Starting new characters may sound good to you, but I already have invested years in the characters I have. For years ccp has been saying race doesn't matter. Now it does and in a substantial way. I don't want to exaggerate this but the difference is substantial. When the overall skills are decreased having the 2 weapon systems becomes even more valuable. This is true due to the way the bonuses work.



Ashterothi wrote:
As far as PI, I can only appeal to the above note. For that edge case, I would recommend you use the best tool for the job. Assuming they can even manage their PI as alphas.


Ok I am not sure how what was said above applies. No other races will be able to fly the epithal. And that is the pi ship unless I am missing one. Now yes it does assume we can manage pi as alphas. I would be quite happy if they did not allow pi to continue running on alpha accounts. But because ccp does not seem to have enough handle on the code to allow us to extract pi skills I tend to think we will be able to keep running pi. You say that this is an "edge" case. Again I don't mean to exagerate but pi is a substantial part of the game. To only allow one race to do that efficiently as an alpha clone is significant.

edit: But I do hope they don't allow pi that requires an omega to set up to continue to be run by alphas.

edit2: Just let me pick my racial bonuses for when I am an alpha - problem solved. You can pick minmatar or caldari if you think they are decent.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Namaan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1342 - 2016-09-13 22:16:00 UTC
I think the issue is you are looking at this in absolutes... Just because one race is worse in say PvP doesn't mean they can't PvP, I mean if you really want to think that way then Alphas should just give up because Omegas.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#1343 - 2016-09-14 03:17:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Namaan wrote:
I think the issue is you are looking at this in absolutes... Just because one race is worse in say PvP doesn't mean they can't PvP, I mean if you really want to think that way then Alphas should just give up because Omegas.


You are comparing a paid account with a non paid account.

Look when I started my characters they said your race wouldn't matter. Why not just allow us characters who relied on that representation to pick what alpha racial skills will stay with their character? So you can pick the caldari set or gallente set or whatever. Then you would be stuck with that set but at least it was your own choice.

At first I didn't think it mattered much because I thought the alphas would be weak. But if they can do pi and fly around in gnosis ships then they are not really weak at all. Plus flying in cruisers and down is pretty fun anyway. But being stuck in caldari or minmatar or even amarr will suck compared to gallente who can do pi and have a pretty nice blaster gnosis that does almost 600 dps.

Edit: I didn't realize the alphas could use tech 2 damage mods. The damage is easilly over 600 dps for a gallente blaster gnosis. I really think this is a bit too powerful because honestly I think I would rarely sub anymore.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Namaan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1344 - 2016-09-14 03:46:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Namaan
Cearain wrote:
Namaan wrote:
I think the issue is you are looking at this in absolutes... Just because one race is worse in say PvP doesn't mean they can't PvP, I mean if you really want to think that way then Alphas should just give up because Omegas.


You are comparing a paid account with a non paid account.

Look when I started my characters they said your race wouldn't matter. Why not just allow us characters who relied on that representation to pick what alpha racial skills will stay with their character? So you can pick the caldari set or gallente set or whatever. Then you would be stuck with that set but at least it was your own choice.

At first I didn't think it mattered much because I thought the alphas would be weak. But if they can do pi and fly around in gnosis ships then they are not really weak at all. Plus flying in cruisers and down is pretty fun anyway. But being stuck in caldari or minmatar or even amarr will suck compared to gallente who can do pi and have a pretty nice blaster gnosis that does almost 600 dps.

Edit: I didn't realize the alphas could use tech 2 damage mods. The damage is easilly over 600 dps for a gallente blaster gnosis. I really think this is a bit too powerful because honestly I think I would rarely sub anymore.


It doesn't matter what I compare, if your that sore about Gal vs Cal then its going to be bad for you no matter what.
You might get that damage in a Vexor not a Gal Gnosis from what I've seen hammered out.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1345 - 2016-09-14 06:51:31 UTC
Cearain wrote:


Starting new characters may sound good to you, but I already have invested years in the characters I have. For years ccp has been saying race doesn't matter. Now it does and in a substantial way. I don't want to exaggerate this but the difference is substantial. When the overall skills are decreased having the 2 weapon systems becomes even more valuable. This is true due to the way the bonuses work.



I'm sorry but...WTFAYTA? Race won't matter to an Omega clone. So unless you are thinking of letting current Omega clones going ALPHA (and why on earth would you do that) what does it matter?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1346 - 2016-09-14 07:01:14 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Namaan wrote:
I think the issue is you are looking at this in absolutes... Just because one race is worse in say PvP doesn't mean they can't PvP, I mean if you really want to think that way then Alphas should just give up because Omegas.


You are comparing a paid account with a non paid account.

Look when I started my characters they said your race wouldn't matter. Why not just allow us characters who relied on that representation to pick what alpha racial skills will stay with their character? So you can pick the caldari set or gallente set or whatever. Then you would be stuck with that set but at least it was your own choice.

At first I didn't think it mattered much because I thought the alphas would be weak. But if they can do pi and fly around in gnosis ships then they are not really weak at all. Plus flying in cruisers and down is pretty fun anyway. But being stuck in caldari or minmatar or even amarr will suck compared to gallente who can do pi and have a pretty nice blaster gnosis that does almost 600 dps.

Edit: I didn't realize the alphas could use tech 2 damage mods. The damage is easilly over 600 dps for a gallente blaster gnosis. I really think this is a bit too powerful because honestly I think I would rarely sub anymore.


Have you read the Dev blog? Alphas cannot do PI. Can they fly around in a Gnosis? Sure.

And please show us this 600 DPS Gnosis fit that an Alpha can fly.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#1347 - 2016-09-14 10:07:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Teckos Pech wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Namaan wrote:
I think the issue is you are looking at this in absolutes... Just because one race is worse in say PvP doesn't mean they can't PvP, I mean if you really want to think that way then Alphas should just give up because Omegas.


You are comparing a paid account with a non paid account.

Look when I started my characters they said your race wouldn't matter. Why not just allow us characters who relied on that representation to pick what alpha racial skills will stay with their character? So you can pick the caldari set or gallente set or whatever. Then you would be stuck with that set but at least it was your own choice.

At first I didn't think it mattered much because I thought the alphas would be weak. But if they can do pi and fly around in gnosis ships then they are not really weak at all. Plus flying in cruisers and down is pretty fun anyway. But being stuck in caldari or minmatar or even amarr will suck compared to gallente who can do pi and have a pretty nice blaster gnosis that does almost 600 dps.

Edit: I didn't realize the alphas could use tech 2 damage mods. The damage is easilly over 600 dps for a gallente blaster gnosis. I really think this is a bit too powerful because honestly I think I would rarely sub anymore.


Have you read the Dev blog? Alphas cannot do PI. Can they fly around in a Gnosis? Sure.

And please show us this 600 DPS Gnosis fit that an Alpha can fly.



If alphas can not do PI that is one thing. But the question Ccp has left open is whether an omega can set up PI and then let the subscription lapse. What then happens? The dev blog says only they will generally take a hands off approach to such matters. Moreover currently you can't extract most PI skills. So I wouldn't be surprised if after an omega sets up a PI system he can let his sub lapse and continue to farm it with the alpa If that's not the case ok. But until we have an answer this thread is to talk about consequences. And if we can do PI gallente have a substantial advantage in the apparent ability to use the epithal.

Gnosis:
[Gnosis, gallente alpha]
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
IFFA Compact Damage Control
Co-Processor II

X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 400
Fleeting Compact Stasis Webifier
Initiated Compact Warp Scrambler
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
10MN Y-S8 Compact Afterburner
50MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive

Modal Neutron Particle Accelerator I, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Modal Neutron Particle Accelerator I, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Modal Neutron Particle Accelerator I, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
[empty high slot]
Modal Neutron Particle Accelerator I, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Modal Neutron Particle Accelerator I, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer II
Medium Ancillary Current Router I

Federation Navy Hammerhead x5

I'm not saying this fit is ideal, but it does look good enough already for a free account.

I really am surprised how powerful alphas will be. Whoever decided on the 5 mill sp spent them wisely. If this goes through like it I think, I will be saving probably at least half my sub money. I guess that's good for me but I am doubtful others will make up the difference me and others like me will create. I never thought eve was expensive. But why spend money you really don't have to?

I will just say it would seem easier to add abilities to alphas later than to take them away. For once I am afraid Ccp will lose allot of their income and not make it back. The whole PI thing is sort of a big deal in my personal decision to sub my accounts.

Teckos Pech wrote:


I'm sorry but...WTFAYTA? Race won't matter to an Omega clone. So unless you are thinking of letting current Omega clones going ALPHA (and why on earth would you do that)?

Money.

Namaan wrote:

It doesn't matter what I compare, if your that sore about Gal vs Cal then its going to be bad for you no matter what.


Yeah it does matter. I am not inclined to pay for my account with alphas being so powerful. I mean that gnosis fit is just a bit less than the ferox fit I have been flying with. Plus I can buy huge amounts of them with the money I save. I don't usually fly things bigger than a bc anyway. Sure some of my alliance fleet stuff will be out, but they will develop alpha doctrines and if we end up in a serious war I can plex the account for the month or 2.

Honestly, like teckos Pech I didn’t realize just how powerful these alphas can be until I started screwing around with eft.


Now I admit I would be sore if alphas can continue to farm pi and only gallente can fly epithals. Basically giving gallente and only gallente pi will be a huge kick to other races - do you agree?

Other than that it’s no big deal. I will just play a gallente alt I have instead of my main.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Clarissa Sunshine
Paragon Bank and Trust
#1348 - 2016-09-14 13:42:12 UTC
Please CCP, i beg you. Read this, tell me this won't happen. Please.

Q: What about farming on free alts using systems like industry?

A: We’ve deliberately tried to limit this behavior using the skills allowed in the Alpha list. It should be very hard to scale alt farms in a way that hurts the ecosystem. But, this is something we need your help on though so if you see the potential for abuse please let us know.



I really do not know how to prevent this, but if it goes through as it now - I will abuse it. I will make Hundreds of Accounts to make Isk and issue jobs that have no skill req. They still earn a pretty penny - they really do. I will make so many accounts that the profits for these products will not be worthy for the new players..

No, obviously it wont be me - it will be the many players that see that this becomes the only way to produce no-skill-req. BPOs/BPCs without making loss. Please I beg you CCP, sort this out before it goes live. I do not see new players making profit of this, not long-term. I see old players creating dozens and hundreds of accounts to make profit. And they don't want this too. Its not a gameplay part you strive for.

And there is NO winner here:

-The new Players/Testers wont make profit of this -> they can just sandbox test the system with probably making a loss due to old players manufacturing the stuff in <1% tax Systems.

-The old Industry guys that are NOT in the "big industry league" and making t2/t3/capitals are technically losing all their spent SP as alpha chars are going to simply overgrow them with efficency.

-The "big league" old Industry guys are forced to stay where they are. If you want to produce t1 / no-skill stuff, you have to make alpha clones anyways because otherwise you are makin a loss.


EVERY Industry Job that is makeable by an Alpha Clone is a WASTE on an Omega Clone.


If you allow Alpha Clones to make Industryjobs at the same cost as Omega Clones, you are forcing us to take a ridicilous fight.

You want to prevent us doing it, but it is more cost-efficent. So youre limiting the slots..players will create more alpha clones.. You're forcing people to either be in-efficent or fight against a system your trying to prevent but not disabling it. I really dont know how to explain this, youre putting us against a fight with CCP.

Solutions? I do not see any good deal to be honest, i can't imagine you didnt sit there and think about it. But i have the very very sad feeling that you did end up the meeting with somebody saying "Ah well, we doubt people gonna really sit there and create dozens of accounts just to save a few isk".

I repeat: I will.

~~~~~~~~~~

The issue:
New players should get a feeling for industry and taste it without removing this essential part of the game of Alpha newbros.
Clarissa Sunshine
Paragon Bank and Trust
#1349 - 2016-09-14 13:42:59 UTC

Solutions?


A) One Possibile Solution: Adding some kind of synthethic cost to Alpha clones so they can never compete with Omega Clones.
-> Won't work, even if alpha clones are more expensive than other at producing, there will always be products where the synthethic cost is smaller than Omega Industryjobcost. Numbercrunchers will figure out, numbercrunchers will abuse. Truly new players will feel disadvantaged.

Once again i assume you did already think about this and denied it because the Alphas would feel disadvantaged. The truth is, as long as they are at the same cost of production, the truly new players that want to feel industry will be at a disadvantage due to the advantages an old player Alpha has vs. a new player alpha.

B) What youve choosen: Limit the slots/duration-skills and make it "harder" to actually build up farms. Well, if it's allowed by the rules, I will do it. And i will do it aslong as it gives profit. And I, as an older player will be advanatged over newer players without access to low-sec/null-sec. New Players will get a taste of industry, but not making profit. Do you believe I'm the only player in whole eve that would do that?

C) Removal of the industry functionality for Alpha clones -> Doesnt solve the issue, truly new players should see that feature, its one of the many things i saw as a rookie and that got me hooked. I dont want to take it away from the players but i really want to prevent a change that could lead to that horrible kind of gameplay.

D) Limit the time Alphas can issue an Industryjob, I had that answer twice in a small discussion so I'll add it. It does not prevent old players from building farms, its just more "annoying" and we have to fight harder - but we end up the same. We fight CCP. And neither the developer nor the players should strive for that.

E) Forbid it. I really like this one, altho its not really ´"preventing" it, but it might help more as im still amazed by the amount of people in eve that do follow the rules: Simple as that, forbid creating an account as an exlusive Industry-Job Alpha Account. Now as always, never put up a rule youre not able to enforce . So there have to be ways to distinguish between all the diffrent possibilities of beeing Alpha (New player, old player not paying atm, Old Player having an Scout Alt, Pure Industry user...and so on, just to name a few)

This is alot of work, hard to prove and will lead to mistakes often and alot of players will sneak through.

Yet im pretty sure it will prevent the people that do follow the rules to do it and it will prevent people doing it in huge-scale which would actually have an impact on the market.




Its a huge topic that has to be thought of very very carefully, account in all kind of people playing eve and how this all would affect all parties, the new, the old and the creators.

But the quote from Devblog "EVE is ready for this." is not correct. EVE is ready to talk about it, EVE is ready to think of as a whole community how to round off the corners
Namaan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1350 - 2016-09-14 15:44:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Namaan
Cearain wrote:
Namaan wrote:

It doesn't matter what I compare, if your that sore about Gal vs Cal then its going to be bad for you no matter what.


Yeah it does matter. I am not inclined to pay for my account with alphas being so powerful. I mean that gnosis fit is just a bit less than the ferox fit I have been flying with. Plus I can buy huge amounts of them with the money I save. I don't usually fly things bigger than a bc anyway. Sure some of my alliance fleet stuff will be out, but they will develop alpha doctrines and if we end up in a serious war I can plex the account for the month or 2.

Honestly, like teckos Pech I didn’t realize just how powerful these alphas can be until I started screwing around with eft.


Now I admit I would be sore if alphas can continue to farm pi and only gallente can fly epithals. Basically giving gallente and only gallente pi will be a huge kick to other races - do you agree?

Other than that it’s no big deal. I will just play a gallente alt I have instead of my main.


Do I agree? Yes and no... Are Alphas better than people think? Yes... Do I think Gal is better at PvP, and Cal is better at Missions? Yes again, but this is nothing new... Do I think its Gal or nothing? No, a Cal pilot can still PvP just fine, yes he will be less effective than a Gal pilot, but he can still get work done... I do agree that some skills need to be evened out like Drones as it hurts Caracel.

Do I think Alphas are good enough to give up the Omega life? That depends on the individual and what they want out of EVE, but for the most part I say no, Alpha clones are not the way to live is you can help it.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#1351 - 2016-09-14 16:10:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Namaan wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Namaan wrote:

It doesn't matter what I compare, if your that sore about Gal vs Cal then its going to be bad for you no matter what.


Yeah it does matter. I am not inclined to pay for my account with alphas being so powerful. I mean that gnosis fit is just a bit less than the ferox fit I have been flying with. Plus I can buy huge amounts of them with the money I save. I don't usually fly things bigger than a bc anyway. Sure some of my alliance fleet stuff will be out, but they will develop alpha doctrines and if we end up in a serious war I can plex the account for the month or 2.

Honestly, like teckos Pech I didn’t realize just how powerful these alphas can be until I started screwing around with eft.


Now I admit I would be sore if alphas can continue to farm pi and only gallente can fly epithals. Basically giving gallente and only gallente pi will be a huge kick to other races - do you agree?

Other than that it’s no big deal. I will just play a gallente alt I have instead of my main.


Do I agree? Yes and no... Are Alphas better than people think? Yes... Do I think Gal is better at PvP, and Cal is better at Missions? Yes again, but this is nothing new... Do I think its Gal or nothing? No, a Cal pilot can still PvP just fine, yes he will be less effective than a Gal pilot, but he can still get work done... I do agree that some skills need to be evened out like Drones as it hurts Caracel.

Do I think Alphas are good enough to give up the Omega life? That depends on the individual and what they want out of EVE, but for the most part I say no, Alpha clones are not the way to live is you can help it.


Those are all fair answers. I think we disagree on the importance of the gnosis. But I admit it's possible that they will become prohibitively expensive in the future. Plus some of the navy cruisers and other ships are still pretty strong and not as unbalanced as the gnosis ends up being.

We can agree to disagree on whether alphas are too strong. As much as I am happy to save the few hundred dollars I spend on subscriptions every year, I think for ccp's good they should tone them down. Maybe cruiser 3 instead of cruiser 4 and also maybe only meta damage mods - I don't have enough information to give a full answer. But I think allot of people will be just fine saving money and not flying the blingy ships.

I also think pi on more than one planet with the advanced skills should be a no go even if you set up the pi as an alpha.
My question was about pi in particular. I doubt you do pi because if you did you know how important the epithal is. There are some ifs in what I say. I assume the alphas will be able to access the pi factories etc. But if they are able to access them (honestly I hope they won't be able to access pi - for ccps sake) then ccp should do something about the epithal. Either give other races an equivalent ship, or allow all to fly the epithal, or let us pick our alpha race set, etc..

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Namaan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1352 - 2016-09-14 17:03:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Namaan
Cearain wrote:
Namaan wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Namaan wrote:

It doesn't matter what I compare, if your that sore about Gal vs Cal then its going to be bad for you no matter what.


Yeah it does matter. I am not inclined to pay for my account with alphas being so powerful. I mean that gnosis fit is just a bit less than the ferox fit I have been flying with. Plus I can buy huge amounts of them with the money I save. I don't usually fly things bigger than a bc anyway. Sure some of my alliance fleet stuff will be out, but they will develop alpha doctrines and if we end up in a serious war I can plex the account for the month or 2.

Honestly, like teckos Pech I didn’t realize just how powerful these alphas can be until I started screwing around with eft.


Now I admit I would be sore if alphas can continue to farm pi and only gallente can fly epithals. Basically giving gallente and only gallente pi will be a huge kick to other races - do you agree?

Other than that it’s no big deal. I will just play a gallente alt I have instead of my main.


Do I agree? Yes and no... Are Alphas better than people think? Yes... Do I think Gal is better at PvP, and Cal is better at Missions? Yes again, but this is nothing new... Do I think its Gal or nothing? No, a Cal pilot can still PvP just fine, yes he will be less effective than a Gal pilot, but he can still get work done... I do agree that some skills need to be evened out like Drones as it hurts Caracel.

Do I think Alphas are good enough to give up the Omega life? That depends on the individual and what they want out of EVE, but for the most part I say no, Alpha clones are not the way to live is you can help it.


Those are all fair answers. I think we disagree on the importance of the gnosis. But I admit it's possible that they will become prohibitively expensive in the future. Plus some of the navy cruisers and other ships are still pretty strong and not as unbalanced as the gnosis ends up being.

We can agree to disagree on whether alphas are too strong. As much as I am happy to save the few hundred dollars I spend on subscriptions every year, I think for ccp's good they should tone them down. Maybe cruiser 3 instead of cruiser 4 and also maybe only meta damage mods - I don't have enough information to give a full answer. But I think allot of people will be just fine saving money and not flying the blingy ships.

I also think pi on more than one planet with the advanced skills should be a no go even if you set up the pi as an alpha.
My question was about pi in particular. I doubt you do pi because if you did you know how important the epithal is. There are some ifs in what I say. I assume the alphas will be able to access the pi factories etc. But if they are able to access them (honestly I hope they won't be able to access pi - for ccps sake) then ccp should do something about the epithal. Either give other races an equivalent ship, or allow all to fly the epithal, or let us pick our alpha race set, etc..


Oh I agree on the Gnosis, it's the key to Alphas running level 3, and possible level 4 missions, but it is as you hint a limited item... The Alpha Cruiser performance is low enough imo with only a few exceptions, if you want to tone down Alphas more I'd rather see Cruisers gone and beef up their Frig/Dessy skills instead, which would also kill Gnosis skills too.

I don't have an answer with the PI debate, it is a touchy subject which I'm sure will get hammered out by the end of the year at the latest, as for the epithal thats not something Alphas can use iirc.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#1353 - 2016-09-14 17:49:15 UTC
Namaan wrote:


I don't have an answer with the PI debate, it is a touchy subject which I'm sure will get hammered out by the end of the year at the latest, as for the epithal thats not something Alphas can use iirc.



In eft you can use them when you plug in the gallente alpha skills.

I would say you probably can use them but it is not confirmed.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/50ml92/can_alpha_clones_fly_a_gnosis/

Gnosis is not a cruiser destroyer or frigate yet alphas can fly it. So the logic seems to be as long as you have the skills you can fly it regardless of that initial claimed restraint. But again its not confirmed.

In all the feedback I have not even gotten the sense that ccp is aware of an issue with pi. They have not even so much have said "yeah we are still not sure what we will do with PI."

Your idea of limiting the skills to destroyers or frigates seems good to me.

Or they could allow new players to go up to slightly higher levels for the first 6 months or something (maybe even cruiser 5) call it a beta clone and then after 6 months things would go back down to alpha clone with lower skills. I really think they are going to lose allot of subs with alphas being this strong.


But then again omegas can probably plex their account just by skill training and selling injectors. But then again that market is beginning to settle in where it is not so profitable and who knows what will happen to plex prices. My *guess* is subscriptions will drop dramatically and plex prices will go up because more people will just want omegas for a month or so.

The guy from industry has concerns and I am not familiar with that. But I wonder if you can put very long jobs in with your omega and then just use a plex every 3 months or so.

trade alts might be able to put trades in as an omega and then just use a plex before the 90 days expires. In the meantime I think they can still modify their trades. So again there would be little point in subbing for more than a month every now and then. Same with PI.


I hope ccp is thinking this through better than their dev blogs let on. Something like this could drop them in the red real fast.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
#1354 - 2016-09-14 18:38:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Iowa Banshee
Namaan wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Namaan wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Namaan wrote:

It doesn't matter what I compare, if your that sore about Gal vs Cal then its going to be bad for you no matter what.


Yeah it does matter. I am not inclined to pay for my account with alphas being so powerful. I mean that gnosis fit is just a bit less than the ferox fit I have been flying with. Plus I can buy huge amounts of them with the money I save. I don't usually fly things bigger than a bc anyway. Sure some of my alliance fleet stuff will be out, but they will develop alpha doctrines and if we end up in a serious war I can plex the account for the month or 2.

Honestly, like teckos Pech I didn’t realize just how powerful these alphas can be until I started screwing around with eft.


Now I admit I would be sore if alphas can continue to farm pi and only gallente can fly epithals. Basically giving gallente and only gallente pi will be a huge kick to other races - do you agree?

Other than that it’s no big deal. I will just play a gallente alt I have instead of my main.


Do I agree? Yes and no... Are Alphas better than people think? Yes... Do I think Gal is better at PvP, and Cal is better at Missions? Yes again, but this is nothing new... Do I think its Gal or nothing? No, a Cal pilot can still PvP just fine, yes he will be less effective than a Gal pilot, but he can still get work done... I do agree that some skills need to be evened out like Drones as it hurts Caracel.

Do I think Alphas are good enough to give up the Omega life? That depends on the individual and what they want out of EVE, but for the most part I say no, Alpha clones are not the way to live is you can help it.


Those are all fair answers. I think we disagree on the importance of the gnosis. But I admit it's possible that they will become prohibitively expensive in the future. Plus some of the navy cruisers and other ships are still pretty strong and not as unbalanced as the gnosis ends up being.

We can agree to disagree on whether alphas are too strong. As much as I am happy to save the few hundred dollars I spend on subscriptions every year, I think for ccp's good they should tone them down. Maybe cruiser 3 instead of cruiser 4 and also maybe only meta damage mods - I don't have enough information to give a full answer. But I think allot of people will be just fine saving money and not flying the blingy ships.

I also think pi on more than one planet with the advanced skills should be a no go even if you set up the pi as an alpha.
My question was about pi in particular. I doubt you do pi because if you did you know how important the epithal is. There are some ifs in what I say. I assume the alphas will be able to access the pi factories etc. But if they are able to access them (honestly I hope they won't be able to access pi - for ccps sake) then ccp should do something about the epithal. Either give other races an equivalent ship, or allow all to fly the epithal, or let us pick our alpha race set, etc..


Oh I agree on the Gnosis, it's the key to Alphas running level 3, and possible level 4 missions, but it is as you hint a limited item... The Alpha Cruiser performance is low enough imo with only a few exceptions, if you want to tone down Alphas more I'd rather see Cruisers gone and beef up their Frig/Dessy skills instead, which would also kill Gnosis skills too.

I don't have an answer with the PI debate, it is a touchy subject which I'm sure will get hammered out by the end of the year at the latest, as for the epithal thats not something Alphas can use iirc.



The T2 rigs requirement is not met but the Gnosis fit should still work.


As for the PI If it continues running without active subscription :-

If the 14 day trial account is still in place then 3 toons with an addition month subs to train up to a reasonable level.
Get them into a wormhole with OK planets and let the subs lapse - set the pi to run for a week and collect the goods every few weeks or when the poco is full. For extra income be sure to train just a little for ME & TE research to add more isk to the pot.

Upkeep would be prior to logging on for your 'normal' game. Log onto 3 alphas reset extractors and if required run to POCOs to collect the goods - say 15mins a day - funnel the goods to your factory planet Main.

Turn over period 7 days so that's 21 alphas for passive pi income - say 200 mill each = 4.2 billion + the 82 BPO's being researched should add another billion a month.

Of course, for the more OCD players, 30 min a day with 42 alphas = 8.4 billion.


YES - CCP will need to do something about farming subs-lapsed alphas for PI -

Maybe disable spaceport transfer to POCO and only allow command center launches ?
Namaan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1355 - 2016-09-14 18:47:45 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Namaan wrote:


I don't have an answer with the PI debate, it is a touchy subject which I'm sure will get hammered out by the end of the year at the latest, as for the epithal thats not something Alphas can use iirc.



In eft you can use them when you plug in the gallente alpha skills.

I would say you probably can use them but it is not confirmed.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/50ml92/can_alpha_clones_fly_a_gnosis/

Gnosis is not a cruiser destroyer or frigate yet alphas can fly it. So the logic seems to be as long as you have the skills you can fly it regardless of that initial claimed restraint. But again its not confirmed.

In all the feedback I have not even gotten the sense that ccp is aware of an issue with pi. They have not even so much have said "yeah we are still not sure what we will do with PI."

Your idea of limiting the skills to destroyers or frigates seems good to me.

Or they could allow new players to go up to slightly higher levels for the first 6 months or something (maybe even cruiser 5) call it a beta clone and then after 6 months things would go back down to alpha clone with lower skills. I really think they are going to lose allot of subs with alphas being this strong.


But then again omegas can probably plex their account just by skill training and selling injectors. But then again that market is beginning to settle in where it is not so profitable and who knows what will happen to plex prices. My *guess* is subscriptions will drop dramatically and plex prices will go up because more people will just want omegas for a month or so.

The guy from industry has concerns and I am not familiar with that. But I wonder if you can put very long jobs in with your omega and then just use a plex every 3 months or so.

trade alts might be able to put trades in as an omega and then just use a plex before the 90 days expires. In the meantime I think they can still modify their trades. So again there would be little point in subbing for more than a month every now and then. Same with PI.


I hope ccp is thinking this through better than their dev blogs let on. Something like this could drop them in the red real fast.



What I meant by would kill the Gnosis build is if you drop Cruisers from Alphas then you would lose med mods too... you gonna fly a Gnosis with only small mods?
Nire Retipuj
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1356 - 2016-09-14 19:18:38 UTC
Troubled Basterd wrote:
The current plex prices are making me think about quiting Eve. I'm afraid a big increas of alpha toons will create a sizeable demand for plex.

Higher demand = higher plex prices.

When you made plex a payment for method for other stuf than game time the plex price has gone up (giving the rich an isk sink).

Pleas figure out a model where the plex prices go down. That will make a lot of ppl (or secondairy acounts) return.




Woohoo, infinit crashing toons for wh space \o/ TwistedTwistedTwisted

Fly save,

Tb.

(spelling control aint working, sorry)


Agreed! I purchased PLEX in game when the price was about 680mil ISK.
I do not purchase PLEX in game at all anymore. I have done the math and the price of PLEX in game is NOT comparable to the time it takes for one maxed out Hulk Pilot to mine the equivalent in ore. That is MY benchmark for deciding whether or not ten +/- days of mining is worth 20 days of actually doing other things in Eve. I still mine for ore but not for buying PLEX in game anymore.
As far as I am concerned, PLEX is only good for SELLING in game to have more ISK quicker than any in game option of acquiring ISK. I want more ISK? Spend $20 USD. That is the only use I have for PLEX now.
The high price gouging of PLEX in game has broken the feature to a certain degree.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#1357 - 2016-09-14 19:30:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Iowa Banshee wrote:


The T2 rigs requirement is not met but the Gnosis fit should still work.


As for the PI If it continues running without active subscription :-

If the 14 day trial account is still in place then 3 toons with an addition month subs to train up to a reasonable level.
Get them into a wormhole with OK planets and let the subs lapse - set the pi to run for a week and collect the goods every few weeks or when the poco is full. For extra income be sure to train just a little for ME & TE research to add more isk to the pot.

Upkeep would be prior to logging on for your 'normal' game. Log onto 3 alphas reset extractors and if required run to POCOs to collect the goods - say 15mins a day - funnel the goods to your factory planet Main.

Turn over period 7 days so that's 21 alphas for passive pi income - say 200 mill each = 4.2 billion + the 82 BPO's being researched should add another billion a month.

Of course, for the more OCD players, 30 min a day with 42 alphas = 8.4 billion.


YES - CCP will need to do something about farming subs-lapsed alphas for PI -

Maybe disable spaceport transfer to POCO and only allow command center launches ?


The problem would be neckbeards with 200 alphas running pi. And if alphas can run strip mining planets then they likely can run factory planets after they are set up as an omega. The planetology and adv planetology skills have no value for factory planets so alphas would actually be best suited for those.

The unemployed would kill the game for those of us who try to occasionally do some work for a living.


As much as i would like to say give an alpha a single planet and be able to run it with command 4 but without interplanetary connections, there will be guys who make a hundred accounts and each alpha would run a planet. I hope ccp realizes 1) lots of their subs are due to pi and 2) running pi isn't really what new players join eve for anyway. Allowing alphas to run pi will just mean cheap vets with no life or money, will drive the rest out.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Nire Retipuj
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1358 - 2016-09-14 19:39:07 UTC
"1) Set up a free to play server that is separate from TQ.
2) No restrictions on this server
3) No customer support for this server. You want customer support you have to pay for it.
4) No plexes or skill injectors on this server.
5) The server is wiped clean every 6 months.
6) At any time you may transfer your character and your assets to TQ with your character in its current state. The cost of this transfer is that you buy a 1 month sub plus $5 transfer fee. The transfer fee is waived with a 3 month sub or more.

Play your heart out free player. When your sick of being reset, come join us on TQ. Otherwise take all the time you need to learn game mechanics. You could also leave the trial up on TQ as is and give people that option. "



^^ ^^
O O

THIS !!
Drigo Segvian
Black Fox Marauders
Pen Is Out
#1359 - 2016-09-15 01:19:07 UTC
Nire Retipuj wrote:
"1) Set up a free to play server that is separate from TQ.
2) No restrictions on this server
3) No customer support for this server. You want customer support you have to pay for it.
4) No plexes or skill injectors on this server.
5) The server is wiped clean every 6 months.
6) At any time you may transfer your character and your assets to TQ with your character in its current state. The cost of this transfer is that you buy a 1 month sub plus $5 transfer fee. The transfer fee is waived with a 3 month sub or more.

Play your heart out free player. When your sick of being reset, come join us on TQ. Otherwise take all the time you need to learn game mechanics. You could also leave the trial up on TQ as is and give people that option. "



^^ ^^
O O

THIS !!



Wow, not a terrible idea...
Drigo Segvian
Black Fox Marauders
Pen Is Out
#1360 - 2016-09-15 01:58:55 UTC
Looks like Christmas is coming early this year boys.


Checklist for november

1. Unsub my PI accounts
2. Unsub my 'Eyes' account
3. Unsub my Indy account
4. Create free alpha accounts 'Eyes' for every system.
5. Create free Merlin anti Venture gank alpha alts. they will need to be kept in check
6. Create LP Mcfarm Swarm.


@CCP- dont think its not going to happen. You should really put some thought into this.