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Dev blog: Command Bursts and the New World of Fleet Boosting

First post First post
Author
6ie
The Kiwis
#1641 - 2016-10-28 21:30:34 UTC
CCP, I have an account I use just for boosting, that account is now redundant.
Will you do the same thing one day for my Industry account too?
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1642 - 2016-10-28 21:37:09 UTC
6ie wrote:
CCP, I have an account I use just for boosting, that account is now redundant.
Will you do the same thing one day for my Industry account too?

Can your alt still fly a T3C/CS.
Can your alt still use command boosts.

if the answer to these questions is yes, your alt is not useless, and the whole idea of boosts now is to have redundant ships on grid so they can't just headshot your boosts. And there is no problem.
If the answer to these questions is no, the problem is that you are delusional.
Bloodstripes
Nobody in Local
Of Sound Mind
#1643 - 2016-10-28 23:04:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodstripes
Can anyone explain when someone would want to swap out the ammo in their bursts?

At max skills+mindlink in a command ship (best duration bonus), the duration is 129s.
At max skills, the min time between bursts is 60s cycle time + 30s reload time = 90s.

You can't run more than one burst off of a single module:
- 2 bursts off of one module would require a duration of 180s.
- 3 bursts off of 2 modules is almost doable, but you're still short a few seconds, even at max skills. Assuming an even stagger of 45 seconds between modules means you get a gap time (i.e. time when a burst is not being applied to fleet members) of 5 seconds for each burst (practicing on SiSi I've found that the combination of lag, ticks, and pilot error means that this is more like 7-10 seconds of gap time). Even if that gap time is acceptable, it still means that you have a really long "build up" period for your fleet as your bursts start applying. Burst 1 is applied instantly, burst 2 has to wait 45 seconds (!) and burst 3 has to wait 90 seconds (!!). Also keep in mind that this whole thing requires Command Ships V and a mindlink -- it's pretty bad with CSIV and unworkable without the mindlink.
- 4 bursts off of 3 modules isn't doable due to the type restrictions on bursts (i.e. info bursts can't load armor ammo).

I also can't think of very good situations where you'd want to change from one burst to another mid-fight. If you have a rep-focused fleet, you want the rep boost. I can't think what the enemy would bring on field that would make you want to switch to buffer or resists, and vice-versa. Maybe some of the skirm or info links could be useful to swap between (by default use the sig radius decrease, refit to prop mode bonus if you need to chase down a kitey fleet or something), but that 90 second delay is going to make reloads....hard. In most skirmishes the fight will be over before your burst reloads.

Given these two things, combined with the fact that it's MUCH easier to stack boosts from multiple ships, I think most fleets will just bring multiple ships (1-3 command dessies for small stuff, 2-5 command ships for big stuff, rip T3s), each with just their base # of burst modules, that they never change the ammo on.

I dunno, this feels like a gameplay mechanic that no one will actually use. =\
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1644 - 2016-10-29 00:28:16 UTC
Bloodstripes wrote:


I dunno, this feels like a gameplay mechanic that no one will actually use. =\

It means that you don't need to swap the module out, just the ammo, at the start of the roam.
Making logistics much easier since you don't need loads of modules.
Bloodstripes
Nobody in Local
Of Sound Mind
#1645 - 2016-10-29 01:15:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodstripes
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Bloodstripes wrote:


I dunno, this feels like a gameplay mechanic that no one will actually use. =\

It means that you don't need to swap the module out, just the ammo, at the start of the roam.
Making logistics much easier since you don't need loads of modules.

I mean, that's definitely nice, but then why build so many skills/ship bonuses around increasing the duration of the buff? Just to give some wiggle room if they pop your boosting ship? Then why have them vary by ship type? And why have skills that reduce the reload time? Feels like a lot of complexity that doesn't get you much gameplay. If everyone is just going to keep their link ship on-grid 100% of the time and never reload ammo during combat, then they might as well set duration=2x cycle time, reload time=long, and use those skills for some other mechanic. In particular, Command Burst Specialist (reduced reload time) feels suuuuuuuper useless now.
Sylvia Kildare
Kinetic Fury
#1646 - 2016-10-29 01:48:10 UTC
Bloodstripes wrote:
You can't run more than one burst off of a single module:
- 2 bursts off of one module would require a duration of 180s.
- 3 bursts off of 2 modules is almost doable, but you're still short a few seconds, even at max skills. Assuming an even stagger of 45 seconds between modules means you get a gap time (i.e. time when a burst is not being applied to fleet members) of 5 seconds for each burst (practicing on SiSi I've found that the combination of lag, ticks, and pilot error means that this is more like 7-10 seconds of gap time). Even if that gap time is acceptable, it still means that you have a really long "build up" period for your fleet as your bursts start applying. Burst 1 is applied instantly, burst 2 has to wait 45 seconds (!) and burst 3 has to wait 90 seconds (!!). Also keep in mind that this whole thing requires Command Ships V and a mindlink -- it's pretty bad with CSIV and unworkable without the mindlink.
- 4 bursts off of 3 modules isn't doable due to the type restrictions on bursts (i.e. info bursts can't load armor ammo).


Interesting. Yeah, people were acting like the reload time was not a thing and thus you could the 2 bursts off 1 module thing with max skills no problemo.

I don't recall the reload times but the 30 seconds you quoted... that's with the reload time reduction skill at L5?

Quote:
I also can't think of very good situations where you'd want to change from one burst to another mid-fight. If you have a rep-focused fleet, you want the rep boost. I can't think what the enemy would bring on field that would make you want to switch to buffer or resists, and vice-versa. Maybe some of the skirm or info links could be useful to swap between (by default use the sig radius decrease, refit to prop mode bonus if you need to chase down a kitey fleet or something), but that 90 second delay is going to make reloads....hard. In most skirmishes the fight will be over before your burst reloads.


Probably not in PVP, but I can see wanting to swap in PVE situations. For the Serpentis/Angel event last summer I used two Tengus firing HAMs + a FOF HML Nighthawk with 4 links. But I usually only ran 3 links to save cap. I'd switch from a tank link to the prop mod top speed boosting link when needed.

I could see say a PVE booster switching from the prop mod boosts to the web range boosts, say, depending on whether it was time to burn somewhere or time to web frigs.
Bloodstripes
Nobody in Local
Of Sound Mind
#1647 - 2016-10-29 01:59:53 UTC
Sylvia Kildare wrote:
I don't recall the reload times but the 30 seconds you quoted... that's with the reload time reduction skill at L5?
Yep, base reload time is 60s. At Command Burst Specialist V it's 30 seconds (and that's the only way to reduce it).
TomyLobo
Negative Density
D3nse Matter
#1648 - 2016-10-29 03:24:10 UTC
Bloodstripes wrote:
Can anyone explain when someone would want to swap out the ammo in their bursts?

At max skills+mindlink in a command ship (best duration bonus), the duration is 129s.
At max skills, the min time between bursts is 60s cycle time + 30s reload time = 90s.

You can't run more than one burst off of a single module:
- 2 bursts off of one module would require a duration of 180s.
- 3 bursts off of 2 modules is almost doable, but you're still short a few seconds, even at max skills. Assuming an even stagger of 45 seconds between modules means you get a gap time (i.e. time when a burst is not being applied to fleet members) of 5 seconds for each burst (practicing on SiSi I've found that the combination of lag, ticks, and pilot error means that this is more like 7-10 seconds of gap time). Even if that gap time is acceptable, it still means that you have a really long "build up" period for your fleet as your bursts start applying. Burst 1 is applied instantly, burst 2 has to wait 45 seconds (!) and burst 3 has to wait 90 seconds (!!). Also keep in mind that this whole thing requires Command Ships V and a mindlink -- it's pretty bad with CSIV and unworkable without the mindlink.
- 4 bursts off of 3 modules isn't doable due to the type restrictions on bursts (i.e. info bursts can't load armor ammo).

I also can't think of very good situations where you'd want to change from one burst to another mid-fight. If you have a rep-focused fleet, you want the rep boost. I can't think what the enemy would bring on field that would make you want to switch to buffer or resists, and vice-versa. Maybe some of the skirm or info links could be useful to swap between (by default use the sig radius decrease, refit to prop mode bonus if you need to chase down a kitey fleet or something), but that 90 second delay is going to make reloads....hard. In most skirmishes the fight will be over before your burst reloads.

Given these two things, combined with the fact that it's MUCH easier to stack boosts from multiple ships, I think most fleets will just bring multiple ships (1-3 command dessies for small stuff, 2-5 command ships for big stuff, rip T3s), each with just their base # of burst modules, that they never change the ammo on.

I dunno, this feels like a gameplay mechanic that no one will actually use. =\

Someone actually gets it.
Longdrinks
Zero Fun Allowed
#1649 - 2016-10-29 09:59:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Longdrinks
TomyLobo wrote:
Bloodstripes wrote:
Can anyone explain when someone would want to swap out the ammo in their bursts?

At max skills+mindlink in a command ship (best duration bonus), the duration is 129s.
At max skills, the min time between bursts is 60s cycle time + 30s reload time = 90s.

You can't run more than one burst off of a single module:
- 2 bursts off of one module would require a duration of 180s.
- 3 bursts off of 2 modules is almost doable, but you're still short a few seconds, even at max skills. Assuming an even stagger of 45 seconds between modules means you get a gap time (i.e. time when a burst is not being applied to fleet members) of 5 seconds for each burst (practicing on SiSi I've found that the combination of lag, ticks, and pilot error means that this is more like 7-10 seconds of gap time). Even if that gap time is acceptable, it still means that you have a really long "build up" period for your fleet as your bursts start applying. Burst 1 is applied instantly, burst 2 has to wait 45 seconds (!) and burst 3 has to wait 90 seconds (!!). Also keep in mind that this whole thing requires Command Ships V and a mindlink -- it's pretty bad with CSIV and unworkable without the mindlink.
- 4 bursts off of 3 modules isn't doable due to the type restrictions on bursts (i.e. info bursts can't load armor ammo).

I also can't think of very good situations where you'd want to change from one burst to another mid-fight. If you have a rep-focused fleet, you want the rep boost. I can't think what the enemy would bring on field that would make you want to switch to buffer or resists, and vice-versa. Maybe some of the skirm or info links could be useful to swap between (by default use the sig radius decrease, refit to prop mode bonus if you need to chase down a kitey fleet or something), but that 90 second delay is going to make reloads....hard. In most skirmishes the fight will be over before your burst reloads.

Given these two things, combined with the fact that it's MUCH easier to stack boosts from multiple ships, I think most fleets will just bring multiple ships (1-3 command dessies for small stuff, 2-5 command ships for big stuff, rip T3s), each with just their base # of burst modules, that they never change the ammo on.

I dunno, this feels like a gameplay mechanic that no one will actually use. =\

Someone actually gets it.

what if you`re not a in a big blob fleet and can only spareone guy for links since you want to rest for dps+logi? The system is easier to use with many boosting ships for less gifted players in big fleets, while real ballers who want to get the most combat power out of their fleet have the option of doing it the hard way.
Serge Bussier
Dark Flame in the Dark
#1650 - 2016-10-29 19:25:37 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Would you really want to build such a ship?

That would almost certainly be classified as a ****-fit in the new boosting paradigm. You'll be on grid, so you'll probably want redundancy for when your boosts get headshot. How many undertanked dedicated boosters do you really want to bring, when you have the option of bringing boosts on otherwise fully combat capable Cdessies/command ships/etc?

Only people that would really benefit, AFAICT, is ELITE HIGH SEC PVPERZ, given the disappointing lack of suspect flagging.

Well, there was another point... Now i can bring into grid, for example, 3-link Absolution with reasonable tanking (150K+) and decent damage from pulse lasers. A combat booster ship, really, who can deal a full spectrum of Armor bonuses. No crutches needed.

After the patch, CCP wants us to use boosting ships inside a grid. Okay, no questions - it should be fun. But wait... i cannot use my old ship without a new rig - which replaces old trimark! So the situation is: we all should bring boosting command ships into grid - but they will be less tanked if we want the same number of bonuses as before, because tanking rigs we have to tear out and then insert command rigs instead.

Another point. CCP for last 2 or 3 years droned on our ears about increasing possibilities for small collectives of players (Fozziesov etc). These small corporations (if they wanted to) could have 1 leadership character, who would take a seat in a spot-located 6-link command ship for the corp to have all needed bonuses from 2 branches. Now it's expected to have maximum 4 links... so the only way is to have the same bonuses is to get an additional character, and it means more windows to control (... and more plex to buy from CCP).

So that is the way to give more possibilities for small groups? Something is definately goes wrong...

P.S. I wonder how Incursion communities are going to break this through.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1651 - 2016-10-29 19:42:56 UTC
Serge Bussier wrote:

Well, there was another point... Now i can bring into grid, for example, 3-link Absolution with reasonable tanking (150K+) and decent damage from pulse lasers. A combat booster ship, really, who can deal a full spectrum of Armor bonuses. No crutches needed.

After the patch, CCP wants us to use boosting ships inside a grid. Okay, no questions - it should be fun. But wait... i cannot use my old ship without a new rig - which replaces old trimark! So the situation is: we all should bring boosting command ships into grid - but they will be less tanked if we want the same number of bonuses as before, because tanking rigs we have to tear out and then insert command rigs instead.

Another point. CCP for last 2 or 3 years droned on our ears about increasing possibilities for small collectives of players (Fozziesov etc). These small corporations (if they wanted to) could have 1 leadership character, who would take a seat in a spot-located 6-link command ship for the corp to have all needed bonuses from 2 branches. Now it's expected to have maximum 4 links... so the only way is to have the same bonuses is to get an additional character, and it means more windows to control (... and more plex to buy from CCP).

So that is the way to give more possibilities for small groups? Something is definately goes wrong...

P.S. I wonder how Incursion communities are going to break this through.

Except you can, because they merged 2 of the old boosts into one new boost.

Incursion communities will laugh, put a couple of boosters on grid and carry on. They had this problem solved in less than 24h right back when CCP first discussed moving links on grid.
Bruce Warhead
Incursion Citadel Network
#1652 - 2016-10-29 23:08:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Bruce Warhead
I would realy like to see the
Leadership
+7% Command Burst Area of Effect Range per level

Wing Command
+6% Command Burst Area of Effect Range per level

Fleet Command
+5% Command Burst Area of Effect Range per level

be the other way round since with that having Fleet Command is like nearly unimportant in a lot of cases.
like on a Command Ship with WC 4 you have like 50km range? and FC 5 has like 65km?.

Especially since the FC skill isn't reimbursed and FC5 was a pretty important skill before for commanders of large fleets but now FC5 is basically useless.
Serge Bussier
Dark Flame in the Dark
#1653 - 2016-10-30 08:11:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Serge Bussier
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Except you can, because they merged 2 of the old boosts into one new boost.

Are you talking about merging of cycle time bonus and capacitor use bonus? That is true. With one little clarification - all passive bonuses will be removed, and there will be no passive armor/shield amount, target range/scan resolution and agility. So, talking about the same Absolution, 3rd boost will be still needed - to have at least armor HP bonus, as before.

Actually, it should be less bonuses from 1 ship, compared to pre-Ascension times, and my worries still exist...
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1654 - 2016-10-30 10:03:48 UTC
Serge Bussier wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Except you can, because they merged 2 of the old boosts into one new boost.

Are you talking about merging of cycle time bonus and capacitor use bonus? That is true. With one little clarification - all passive bonuses will be removed, and there will be no passive armor/shield amount, target range/scan resolution and agility. So, talking about the same Absolution, 3rd boost will be still needed - to have at least armor HP bonus, as before.

Actually, it should be less bonuses from 1 ship, compared to pre-Ascension times, and my worries still exist...

The idea though is, not to use *A* ship for boosts but to have them spread over several.

Your right though, 1 ship can no longer boost as it does now when you include passive boosts and implants, you need at least 2 in fleet to get the same bonuses as now from 1.

Fitting 3 links on Command ships will be extremely risky, at least for the first few months after release. Boosters will be called primary in every engagement and sacrificing that rig slot for a 3rd boost instead of a second booster, , , I hope your getting full srp.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Miss Jestz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1655 - 2016-10-30 11:18:05 UTC
So, I've tested the command bursts in SISI and I have a question regarding the Command Burst Specialist skill.


In a situation when you leave the command burst cycling, the more skilled you are in Command Burst Specialist, the more charges you'll be using without any other benefit. So it would seem that for that situation you will want that skill untrained since it only gives negative benefits !

Doesn't seems too logical to me ?
Thogn
Republic Logistics II
#1656 - 2016-10-30 15:45:53 UTC
Mein Deutsch ist besser als mein Englisch.

referrs to : Boost-Range

There are a lot of pilots - who know something about PvP, I'm not one of those.
But these guys have put quite some effort into the setup of the 'ALLIANCE TOURNAMENT'.

If I got it right - the Alliance Tournament takes place in a kind of space-bubble. One can't see the borders though, but they are there. If my trivial approach is correct, now then I do not understand the discussion regarding the boost-ranges - because on all level 5 - there has to be exactly at least that ALLIANCE TOURNAMENT bubble format - which has to be filled with a single boost in full.

Did I get it wrong, again ?

If the boost-range is bigger - I'm fine with that. Lower - is a NO GO for me.

o7
Bloodstripes
Nobody in Local
Of Sound Mind
#1657 - 2016-10-30 18:15:32 UTC
Miss Jestz wrote:
So, I've tested the command bursts in SISI and I have a question regarding the Command Burst Specialist skill.


In a situation when you leave the command burst cycling, the more skilled you are in Command Burst Specialist, the more charges you'll be using without any other benefit. So it would seem that for that situation you will want that skill untrained since it only gives negative benefits !

Doesn't seems too logical to me ?


Command Burst Specialist affects reload time, not cycle time. The clip size on burst modules is so large that you'll never need to reload unless you want to. So it won't affect how much ammo you use.
Xcom
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1658 - 2016-10-31 06:17:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Xcom
Am I correct to assume that the Command Burst Specialist skill is the Warfare Link Specialist skill renamed? Or we are getting a new skill separate to the ones we have now?

Edit: Haven't looked through the whole thread but its kinda lacking info regarding details like the rename of skills from what to what. Or moduals doing the same.
Mark Marconi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1659 - 2016-10-31 06:40:46 UTC
This thread has been kind of funny.

Go to the thread about ECs and see the PvP pilots telling the industry players to suck it up. POSs were to good and that is why the new ECs are worse to correct a prior mistake.

Come over here and it is page after page of complaints because something that was clearly over powered (off grid boosts) is being fixed with CCPs doing some bizarre things like they did with the ECs.

Funny as hell.

The CSM gets in the way of CCP communicating properly with the players of this game.

After all we are not just players, we are customers.

Time for the CSM to be disbanded.

Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1660 - 2016-10-31 12:56:16 UTC
Bloodstripes wrote:
Miss Jestz wrote:
So, I've tested the command bursts in SISI and I have a question regarding the Command Burst Specialist skill.


In a situation when you leave the command burst cycling, the more skilled you are in Command Burst Specialist, the more charges you'll be using without any other benefit. So it would seem that for that situation you will want that skill untrained since it only gives negative benefits !

Doesn't seems too logical to me ?


Command Burst Specialist affects reload time, not cycle time. The clip size on burst modules is so large that you'll never need to reload unless you want to. So it won't affect how much ammo you use.

Although he has the skill name wrong, his point is none the less valid - My specialized leadership character will be using 2.5 charges per cycle..


Maybe, if there is someone at CCP who knows how - Fleet command skill could be changed to increase cycle time of burst modules - Bring it into line with pretty much every other module that uses charges in the game.
It would also make having "Fleet Command" trained worth something - Right now it is pretty much redundant..

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.