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Dev blog: Command Bursts and the New World of Fleet Boosting

First post First post
Author
Penance Toralen
Compass Fox
#1461 - 2016-09-30 05:02:42 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Balder Verdandi wrote:
Mining is a different style of game play, which is what really surprises me that a lot of people cannot grasp ... including the devs.
Yet the differences really have no meaning here. We're not changing mining. What being changed is boosting. And boosting functions the same either way. You're providing a series of benefits to a group of ships, which is no different between mining or other boosts.
What should have happened is that when the Combat Boosts were changed, Mining should not have been excluded. It has generated a sense of self-entitlement that could have been avoided.

Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Balder Verdandi wrote:
For the Orca .... this ship needs a lot of love for this change and I don't see it coming at all, except in the form of another ship (the Porpoise) which doesn't address the concerns the mining community is posting.

Fly an Orca on a regular basis and you'll see how much risk there is with an 800 million ISK giant flying bath tub, that needs another 500 million in fittings, has minimal offensive/defensive capabilities, and it's still a giant flying bath tub. Meanwhile, no one wants to discuss how to make the Orca able to defend itself if it's going to be sitting in a mining anom or belt, but we get the Porpoise instead? This doesn't make any sense at all.
You're confusing the word "needs" with "can be fit with." There's no need to spend 500mill on a fit. Regarding the complaints, what's being brought up is largely just wanting an exception to maintain the current state of operation in both terms of utility and safety. That's not really a reason not to do it. The orca is a mining booster and hold. It's ok for it not to be a combat ship just like the ships it boosts aren't necessarily geared for combat.
500mil is hyperbole. But I would still challenge that why the rorqual getting precidence over the Orca, when the Orca is the lower tier ship? And why does a Command Ship have the slot layout of a mere frigate?! It's a PvP game so they keep telling me - so how it is not a combat ship which at a minimum should have good option for defence plus some ulitity. Plus because the range of the Orca boost is a premium, it will be become relatively easily to disrupt a mining fleet by bumping the orca away from the ice/belt. I do not think anybody would be happy if Orca pilots drop a dozen giant secure containers, which are anchored in a sphere to counter bumping.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#1462 - 2016-09-30 05:28:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
You do understand PvP does not mean combat right? As for being bumped you can either gank or bump the bumper you are not helpless
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1463 - 2016-09-30 18:27:47 UTC
Penance Toralen wrote:
500mil is hyperbole. But I would still challenge that why the rorqual getting precidence over the Orca, when the Orca is the lower tier ship? And why does a Command Ship have the slot layout of a mere frigate?! It's a PvP game so they keep telling me - so how it is not a combat ship which at a minimum should have good option for defence plus some ulitity. Plus because the range of the Orca boost is a premium, it will be become relatively easily to disrupt a mining fleet by bumping the orca away from the ice/belt. I do not think anybody would be happy if Orca pilots drop a dozen giant secure containers, which are anchored in a sphere to counter bumping.
An orca really isn't a command ship in the sense of Eve's definition of the words. It's an industrial mini-freighter with a mining specific boosting function. That's a definitively non-combat role thus the non-combat focused hull (still, enough grid to fit a T2 500mn mwd and another couple of slots isn't asking too much IMHO). I agree it would be nice to get something a kin to what the skiff is to the hulk for a counterpart to the orca, and really hope that's what the porpoise turns out to be on some level.

And as already stated, yes, it's a sandbox game that inherently means everything becomes PvP the moment someone else is doing it, thus your Orca is PvP'ing whenever in use.
Andrea Cemenotar
Elena Minasse Operations
#1464 - 2016-09-30 19:45:43 UTC
Penance Toralen wrote:
500mil is hyperbole. But I would still challenge that why the rorqual getting precidence over the Orca, when the Orca is the lower tier ship? And why does a Command Ship have the slot layout of a mere frigate?! It's a PvP game so they keep telling me - so how it is not a combat ship which at a minimum should have good option for defence plus some ulitity. Plus because the range of the Orca boost is a premium, it will be become relatively easily to disrupt a mining fleet by bumping the orca away from the ice/belt. I do not think anybody would be happy if Orca pilots drop a dozen giant secure containers, which are anchored in a sphere to counter bumping.



first of all not "Command ship" but "Industrial Command ship", may seem like "mere semantics" but thats where the differences originates

as for non-combat ships having all the means of defence...
Retriever,
Covetor,
Mackinaw,
Hulk,
Noctis,
orca,
rorqual,
all freighters
all jump freighters
factional industrials
shuttles

all of these have two common traits
first of them is that they are CIVILIAN SHIPS
second is that because of that thay have little to no defensive tools on their own

not sure how you, but I do see here a connection....

Tyberius Franklin wrote:

An orca really isn't a command ship in the sense of Eve's definition of the words. It's an industrial mini-freighter with a mining specific boosting function. That's a definitively non-combat role thus the non-combat focused hull (still, enough grid to fit a T2 500mn mwd and another couple of slots isn't asking too much IMHO). I agree it would be nice to get something a kin to what the skiff is to the hulk for a counterpart to the orca, and really hope that's what the porpoise turns out to be on some level.

And as already stated, yes, it's a sandbox game that inherently means everything becomes PvP the moment someone else is doing it, thus your Orca is PvP'ing whenever in use.


agreed, orca is not command ship it is industrial command ship :P
it is basically pricey industrial ship with bonuses for mining boosts which again falls under "industrial" gameplay which is in eve and is quite different from "combat" gameplay

like you know guys remember those posters with "possible career tracks" in EvE? someone used to make those

the very first "split" in gameplay was:
1. Industrial careers
2. Combat careers

ships used for both of these are meant for different roles and falls under totaly different paradigms

sure there are some few odd ships like procurer or some "uberskilledplayerz" who have won PvP encounters while piloting industrial ships but these are more of exception than the rules and by basics of design, if you are flying industrial type vessel and here is possibility of getting under attack of combat ships, you better get some escort ships....

[PS. as for porpoise I have two hopes for it - firstly for it being an industrial escort type akin to procurer, secodn for it to have an ability to mine on its own - something slightly below the procurer leel of yield/hour would be nice, and should not break tha balance....]
Drago Shouna
Doomheim
#1465 - 2016-10-02 10:51:31 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
You do understand PvP does not mean combat right? As for being bumped you can either gank or bump the bumper you are not helpless



Will you ever stop trolling every post?

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.

Now Life
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1466 - 2016-10-02 11:16:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Now Life
Good day

If you make the rorq/orca ongrid boosters and max range is 100 Km , make the belts smaler (ice belt) .
Now the roids are 150 à 200 km distributed in de belt.

And we need a BC hull industrial booster a rorq and orca are to big(slow) and expensive in comparison with the command ships.

And a rig so you can fit a extra mining Forman burst = crap, we need the rig slots for resist / cap rigs if the rorq need to be on grid .

And why would we use a +2 bil ship in a belt that can not move when boosting i dont see a comand ship stuck for 10 min on grid.
And yes the panic button u be able to use on a rorq WOW make you mining fleet stuck (pilots) even more in the belt .
Lugh Crow-Slave
#1467 - 2016-10-02 14:26:24 UTC
Drago Shouna wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
You do understand PvP does not mean combat right? As for being bumped you can either gank or bump the bumper you are not helpless



Will you ever stop trolling every post?



but i wasn't q.q
Eternus8lux8lucis
Duckzer Mining Corporation
RAZOR Alliance
#1468 - 2016-10-02 16:12:18 UTC
Was just looking for this info again and Im not sure if its been added or talked about.

The one passive boost that doesnt seem accounted for is the agility from the basic skirmish boost. Everything else seems to have an active counterpart with it. I would suggest the possibility of adding it to the Evasive Maneuvering booster bonus so that you are well "evasive." Sig radius reduction, though decent, isnt worth enough on its own.

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#1469 - 2016-10-02 20:13:05 UTC
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:
Was just looking for this info again and Im not sure if its been added or talked about.

The one passive boost that doesnt seem accounted for is the agility from the basic skirmish boost. Everything else seems to have an active counterpart with it. I would suggest the possibility of adding it to the Evasive Maneuvering booster bonus so that you are well "evasive." Sig radius reduction, though decent, isnt worth enough on its own.


Signature radius reduction is one of the most powerful bonuses in the game.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Vasili Zaitsez
HIgh Sec Care Bears
Brothers of Tangra
#1470 - 2016-10-03 15:55:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Vasili Zaitsez
Andrea Cemenotar wrote:
Penance Toralen wrote:
500mil is hyperbole. But I would still challenge that why the rorqual getting precidence over the Orca, when the Orca is the lower tier ship? And why does a Command Ship have the slot layout of a mere frigate?! It's a PvP game so they keep telling me - so how it is not a combat ship which at a minimum should have good option for defence plus some ulitity. Plus because the range of the Orca boost is a premium, it will be become relatively easily to disrupt a mining fleet by bumping the orca away from the ice/belt. I do not think anybody would be happy if Orca pilots drop a dozen giant secure containers, which are anchored in a sphere to counter bumping.



first of all not "Command ship" but "Industrial Command ship", may seem like "mere semantics" but thats where the differences originates

as for non-combat ships having all the means of defence...
Retriever,
Covetor,
Mackinaw,
Hulk,
Noctis,
orca,
rorqual,
all freighters
all jump freighters
factional industrials
shuttles

all of these have two common traits
first of them is that they are CIVILIAN SHIPS
second is that because of that thay have little to no defensive tools on their own

not sure how you, but I do see here a connection....

Tyberius Franklin wrote:

An orca really isn't a command ship in the sense of Eve's definition of the words. It's an industrial mini-freighter with a mining specific boosting function. That's a definitively non-combat role thus the non-combat focused hull (still, enough grid to fit a T2 500mn mwd and another couple of slots isn't asking too much IMHO). I agree it would be nice to get something a kin to what the skiff is to the hulk for a counterpart to the orca, and really hope that's what the porpoise turns out to be on some level.

And as already stated, yes, it's a sandbox game that inherently means everything becomes PvP the moment someone else is doing it, thus your Orca is PvP'ing whenever in use.


agreed, orca is not command ship it is industrial command ship :P
it is basically pricey industrial ship with bonuses for mining boosts which again falls under "industrial" gameplay which is in eve and is quite different from "combat" gameplay

like you know guys remember those posters with "possible career tracks" in EvE? someone used to make those

the very first "split" in gameplay was:
1. Industrial careers
2. Combat careers

ships used for both of these are meant for different roles and falls under totaly different paradigms

sure there are some few odd ships like procurer or some "uberskilledplayerz" who have won PvP encounters while piloting industrial ships but these are more of exception than the rules and by basics of design, if you are flying industrial type vessel and here is possibility of getting under attack of combat ships, you better get some escort ships....

[PS. as for porpoise I have two hopes for it - firstly for it being an industrial escort type akin to procurer, secodn for it to have an ability to mine on its own - something slightly below the procurer leel of yield/hour would be nice, and should not break tha balance....]



Its simple folks, Rorqual is the only command ship immobilized while boosting. Industrial Core is a compression engine inappropriately tied to boosting. Propulsion is diverted to compress rock.

With 150km+ boosting range on grid, putting Rorqual on field makes sense.

PvPers, what is your reaction to immobilizing ALL command ships? BCs, Capitals, Super Capitals, all immobilized while boosting just like Rorqual?

Hey if were looking for fish in a barrel to shoot, I want in on some 100b killmails when Titans get immobilized while boosting. {Ridiculous example to be sure but so is immobilizing a command ship}
Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1471 - 2016-10-03 16:38:52 UTC
Vasili Zaitsez wrote:
Its simple folks, Rorqual is the only command ship immobilized while boosting. Industrial Core is a compression engine inappropriately tied to boosting. Propulsion is diverted to compress rock.

With 150km+ boosting range on grid, putting Rorqual on field makes sense.

PvPers, what is your reaction to immobilizing ALL command ships? BCs, Capitals, Super Capitals, all immobilized while boosting just like Rorqual?

Hey if were looking for fish in a barrel to shoot, I want in on some 100b killmails when Titans get immobilized while boosting. {Ridiculous example to be sure but so is immobilizing a command ship}

Interesting thing to consider: old command ships couldn't warp and keep their boosts intact (from what I'm told. I haven't command boosted yet). Now, of course they could move around on-grid, but they immediately lost boost connection if they hit warp. In fact that was a tactic people used: keep combat probing the off-grid booster to keep him warping to a new safe so his fleet kept loosing boosts.

With the revamped command boosts, command ships are now on grid, but in a sense they have gained more mobility because they can boost then warp off for a minute or two.

The Rorq is being brought on-grid, but gets self-tackled if it wants to have max boosts.

Emphasis, of course, on "max".

If prior posters were correct (and I believe they were), the Rorq still gives the best mining boosts even without using the industrial core. The core just gives you even more on top of that. So you can still field the Rorq for best boosts, that get EVEN BETTER if you want to siege yourself for a few minutes.

That there is no equivalent on the combat booster side, perhaps might be a valid argument. But the thing is, the combat side does not get EVEN BETTER boosts option. Unless CCP wants to throw in a hilarious curveball and give Marauders command bonuses and tie it into bastion. Which...I can't tell if that'd be horrific or the most amazing thing ever. Probably horrific, because the corresponding nerfs to the Marauder class would make me very, very sad.

Moving on, my point is that you seem to be conflating "an option for more" with "absolutely necessary in order to work". You get the best boosts with Rorq. You get some whip cream on top for deploying the Core - that's optional.
Vasili Zaitsez
HIgh Sec Care Bears
Brothers of Tangra
#1472 - 2016-10-03 17:19:00 UTC
Khan Wrenth

"If prior posters were correct (and I believe they were), the Rorq still gives the best mining boosts even without using the industrial core. The core just gives you even more on top of that. So you can still field the Rorq for best boosts, that get EVEN BETTER if you want to siege yourself for a few minutes."

Prior posters are categorically incorrect
Orca boosts are better than Rorqual not deployed due to Orca 3% per hull level advantage compared to Rorqual 0% per level without Industrial Core

"That there is no equivalent on the combat booster side, perhaps might be a valid argument. But the thing is, the combat side does not get EVEN BETTER boosts option. Unless CCP wants to throw in a hilarious curveball and give Marauders command bonuses and tie it into bastion. Which...I can't tell if that'd be horrific or the most amazing thing ever. Probably horrific, because the corresponding nerfs to the Marauder class would make me very, very sad."

"Moving on, my point is that you seem to be conflating "an option for more" with "absolutely necessary in order to work". You get the best boosts with Rorq. You get some whip cream on top for deploying the Core - that's optional."

As to the "..whip cream on top..." I never really considered this. You have a good argument here.

In the end this will balance out. If Rorquals must deploy for max boost, most will likely either Not deploy or go to Orca if it remains a more capable booster than a non-deployed Rorqual. The net effect will cause a slight rise in Ore values [in some null regions] due to less availability which will self balance this problem. I doubt there will be any impact in HighSec.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1473 - 2016-10-03 18:26:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Vasili Zaitsez wrote:
Khan Wrenth

...


Prior posters are categorically incorrect
Orca boosts are better than Rorqual not deployed due to Orca 3% per hull level advantage compared to Rorqual 0% per level without Industrial Core

...

As to the "..whip cream on top..." I never really considered this. You have a good argument here.

In the end this will balance out. If Rorquals must deploy for max boost, most will likely either Not deploy or go to Orca if it remains a more capable booster than a non-deployed Rorqual. The net effect will cause a slight rise in Ore values [in some null regions] due to less availability which will self balance this problem. I doubt there will be any impact in HighSec.

Are we talking current or proposed? I ask because there is a pretty clear statement contradicting this is the blog:
Dev Blog wrote:

Rorqual

Can fit three Command Burst modules

Can fit one Pulse Activated Nexus Invulnerability Core module

+5% bonus to Mining Foreman Burst Strength and Duration per skill level

+3% bonus to Shield Command Burst Strength and Duration per skill level

Role Bonus: +50% bonus to Command Burst Area of Effect Range
This is greater than the Orca's stated 3% Mining Foreman Burst Strength per level, so even without the core the Rorqual is better. If you're referring to the current state of affairs that doesn't really have any bearing on post change concerns.

Vasili Zaitsez wrote:
Its simple folks, Rorqual is the only command ship immobilized while boosting. Industrial Core is a compression engine inappropriately tied to boosting. Propulsion is diverted to compress rock.

With 150km+ boosting range on grid, putting Rorqual on field makes sense.

PvPers, what is your reaction to immobilizing ALL command ships? BCs, Capitals, Super Capitals, all immobilized while boosting just like Rorqual?

Hey if were looking for fish in a barrel to shoot, I want in on some 100b killmails when Titans get immobilized while boosting. {Ridiculous example to be sure but so is immobilizing a command ship}
Pretty sure this is going to be a non-issue since as stated above the Rorqual will have an innate boosting bonus suggesting it's boosting function is NOT inherently tied to immobilization. The only difference will be that unlike command ships we won't even have the option of 25% - 30% boost strength increase whether mobile or not.
Vasili Zaitsez
HIgh Sec Care Bears
Brothers of Tangra
#1474 - 2016-10-03 18:35:44 UTC
Are we talking current or proposed? I ask because there is a pretty clear statement contradicting this is the blog:

Current

While the "Proposed" is:
Rorqual

Can fit three Command Burst modules

Can fit one Pulse Activated Nexus Invulnerability Core module

+5% bonus to Mining Foreman Burst Strength and Duration per skill level

+3% bonus to Shield Command Burst Strength and Duration per skill level

Role Bonus: +50% bonus to Command Burst Area of Effect Range

Go to SiSi, redeem your Command burst modules and try fitting them to the Rorqual. You will find the Rorqual specs unchanged, COmmand burst module range limited to 50km and you can only fit one module.

While CCP does say 'Numbers not final' we don't get to see a full test. So, the final verdict is not yet in. We will see when its all out which ship is best.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1475 - 2016-10-03 18:38:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Vasili Zaitsez wrote:
Are we talking current or proposed? I ask because there is a pretty clear statement contradicting this is the blog:

Current

While the "Proposed" is:
Rorqual

Can fit three Command Burst modules

Can fit one Pulse Activated Nexus Invulnerability Core module

+5% bonus to Mining Foreman Burst Strength and Duration per skill level

+3% bonus to Shield Command Burst Strength and Duration per skill level

Role Bonus: +50% bonus to Command Burst Area of Effect Range

Go to SiSi, redeem your Command burst modules and try fitting them to the Rorqual. You will find the Rorqual specs unchanged, COmmand burst module range limited to 50km and you can only fit one module.

While CCP does say 'Numbers not final' we don't get to see a full test. So, the final verdict is not yet in. We will see when its all out which ship is best.
Pretty sure Rorq changes haven't hit yet so I'm not sure what good that will do.

Bear in mind prior to the release we ARE supposed to see a revised Rorq and command ships.

Either way unless you have some reason to suspect what was provided in the blog was wholly wrong vs not implemented I'd say you're jumping the gun assuming no change whatsoever to the Rorq.
Vasili Zaitsez
HIgh Sec Care Bears
Brothers of Tangra
#1476 - 2016-10-03 19:39:41 UTC
"Pretty sure Rorq changes haven't hit yet so I'm not sure what good that will do.

Bear in mind prior to the release we ARE supposed to see a revised Rorq and command ships.

Either way unless you have some reason to suspect what was provided in the blog was wholly wrong vs not implemented I'd say you're jumping the gun assuming no change whatsoever to the Rorq."


I really hope your right! Just did the math on how far AoE boosts will reach out from Rorqual to the miners. It is only 46.75km with FC5 and Rorqual Role bonus of 50% this is using the stated base range of 15km.

Using the Orca, you get less effectiveness but same range

You will have to park dead on the Warp in and rely on your hulks 36km laser range to reach the outer rocks.

I personally see a way around this problem. [Not sharing with you PvP types looking in]

I suspect that when faced with these numbers [if final] some hard decisions will need to be made.

If looking at what is offered and estimating the outcome based on experience is "Jumping the gun", then I am Jumping the Gun and sharing info so we can all head into this as informed as possible.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1477 - 2016-10-03 19:46:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Vasili Zaitsez wrote:
If looking at what is offered and estimating the outcome based on experience is "Jumping the gun", then I am Jumping the Gun and sharing info so we can all head into this as informed as possible.
What you're jumping the gun in specifically is the assumption above that the numbers in the blog were false. Adapting tactics to suit what was presented not so much. You can't really "estimate the outcome based on experience" of a 5%/level bonus by stating it's 0% looking at an incomplete patch on the test server then argue another class of ship should get nerfs based of something that may not even remain in it's current form.
Now Life
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1478 - 2016-10-04 05:15:03 UTC
just an idea

A rorq is a Capital Industrail Ship , give it 3 fighter bays and bonus when industrial core is active
Lugh Crow-Slave
#1479 - 2016-10-04 08:08:47 UTC
Now Life wrote:
just an idea

A rorq is a Capital Industrail Ship , give it 3 fighter bays and bonus when industrial core is active



so are freighters orcas and JFs i don't see your reasoning
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1480 - 2016-10-04 12:14:30 UTC
@CCP fozzie

Please change heavy water to Liquid ozone in the charges.

null sec miners will already have a massive heavy water deficit

for my self, i presently have a stock of 6m heavy water, vs 35m units of ozone. when am i going to use that much ozone??

so please either make the charges use Ozone, or re balance the ice refines for a higher concentration of heavy water

Thank you