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Dev blog: Command Bursts and the New World of Fleet Boosting

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Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1241 - 2016-09-14 06:11:28 UTC
Nobody is stopping you from doing any of those things

The problem here is that you somehow want a solo player to be on equal terms with a group that's not how it works matey

Art of Explosions
Laurens Punani
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1242 - 2016-09-14 06:20:49 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:


Laurens Punani wrote:
Fielding billions of isks is not really the point, the point is, that mining boosts are the only boosts that directly influence your productivity in PVE.
I take it you aren't familiar with incursions?

Laurens Punani wrote:
some figures: numer of hours needed to pay for a plex while doing a PVE activity without boosts while others recieve boosts:

Ratting: about 20h
Incursions : about 10h
Exploration : about 15h
...
Mining : about 80h

tell me again how mining boosts are optional!
Seems the answer is clear, do something other than mine for PLEX. PLEXing an account isn't an entitlement and not an argument for a reason that the activity requiring the lowest level of interaction of those on your list should require more time to obtain it. So yes, it's still optional, because PLEXing is optional.


No one plexing, no plex sales, no money for CCP. Seems reasonable to ignore those that plex Roll
[/quote]Who said no one plexing? Maybe you should stop projecting people's inability to figure out how to make it work. There WILL be miners who still PLEX. It just won't be the ones who complain about fielding assets instead of fielding asset or investing more time.[/quote]



dude, plexing accounts is easy.... plexing accounts with mining takes more interaction than plexing accounts with ratting. In an Ishtar you dont need to produce, you dont need to sell.. you just have to deploy drones every 30 minutes:D I've done both, i will still be able to do both after whatever changes may come. People with 2 million SP, one account and 30 bucks of pocket money dont have the choice... They can either play something that pays enough to fund their eve-career or just dont play at all.
Thats plain stupid.
also: show me the incursion-boost, that boosts your incursion income by 100% :D:D:D

take it you are not familiar with common-sense?
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1243 - 2016-09-14 06:25:42 UTC
Maybe if you only have 30 dollars to your name, figuring out how to plex should not be on the top of your list of priorities

Incursion boost: links allow You to fit less tank and more gank increasing your clear times by a significant amount

Art of Explosions
Laurens Punani
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1244 - 2016-09-14 06:32:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Laurens Punani
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Nobody is stopping you from doing any of those things

The problem here is that you somehow want a solo player to be on equal terms with a group that's not how it works matey



I dont want them to be equal, i want them to be close enough to each other, so that solo-play is still an option. 100% difference in income is just too far away.

I get that you guys think EVE has to be a horrible place, but when i started (not too long ago, thats probably why i dont see things 100% like you YET :D ) People helped me a lot :)

I got boosts so i could mine more profitably. I was given my first procurer for free and some random dude in provi even gave me 100m just so i could get started more easyly.
I went on to rat after moving because i could not recieve boosts 23/7 and wanted to be able to play while the booster was not online. It could be that im projecting that onto the discussion as a whole, but in my eyes, mining would never have been an option without the boosts ( solo highsec in a venture... yay :D only 5 more months until i can buy something bigger :D ). When i started, i did not know what to do and enjoyed talking to people on teamspeak while mining.
If CCP makes the way i took impossible for new players to take, they a taking away a big chunk of gameplay for newbros.

Most important for me was to get a stable isk.income so i could chose more freely what to do next and not be restircted by money and SP but only by experience. Mining was viable back then, why shoulnd't it be on november?


PS. Dont tell me it still is :D

considering the incursion boosts:

That is the idea of boosts i like a lot... like range boosts giving miners the possibility to reach rocks further away and shield boosts allowing them to fit more MLUs... but just doubling the income without any steps in between... is something different ;)
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#1245 - 2016-09-14 07:13:42 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Maybe if you only have 30 dollars to your name, figuring out how to plex should not be on the top of your list of priorities

Incursion boost: links allow You to fit less tank and more gank increasing your clear times by a significant amount



Incursions will be interesting to see after this for a bit. Why not much empathy for the miners, other pve activities affected really. Will the herd of incursion cats be herded well for the boost pulse....question of the day there.

That and if they eye rat killing money with this much jealousy/envy a miner can switch over. I did years ago. Alt mined for 2 years. She went rat killing....never looked back. Got me orca, great boat to move a t3 and other small crap around changing agents up. Refine skills liked in the past for when loot worth melting down too.

I can give them some low work, decent output setups. Almost like mining. Have a tengu fit all you have to is start a fast orbit (speed/sig tank), turn on prop and sb (Resists are passive, no clicks for them lol) and done. Feed her targets, f1 on reloads, stuff dies, get paid. no where near the work of bs' I run lol. Think the rat is a rock...ssdd really lol.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1246 - 2016-09-14 07:20:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Laurens Punani wrote:
dude, plexing accounts is easy.... plexing accounts with mining takes more interaction than plexing accounts with ratting. In an Ishtar you dont need to produce, you dont need to sell.. you just have to deploy drones every 30 minutes:D I've done both, i will still be able to do both after whatever changes may come. People with 2 million SP, one account and 30 bucks of pocket money dont have the choice... They can either play something that pays enough to fund their eve-career or just dont play at all.
Thats plain stupid.
also: show me the incursion-boost, that boosts your incursion income by 100% :D:D:D

take it you are not familiar with common-sense?
No, PLEXing with mining really doesn't take more interaction, it just takes more time. If you want to argue actually producing in addition to that we're now talking about something else, in which case ratters /mission runners/etc should be able to count their faction/deadspace loot/LP/etc for added interaction as well.

Also you haven't ratted much recently if you're only launching drones every 30 min. That or you're making isk for 2 min min and idling in space next to dead drones for the other 28.

I do like how you're trying to be selective and move goal posts though. Between turning "mining income" into an entire supply chain while ignoring market interactions that come from other forms of PvE now you're narrowing from saying no other form of PvE increases profit from boosts to it having to be a 100% increase to count.

I'm fully familiar with common sense, which says you can make isk mining without boosts. The 2 million SP new player solo mining doesn't have Orca boosts so you're hypothetical argument that it's for their sake is fundamentally a lie as well, but it still works for the one doing it.
Laurens Punani
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1247 - 2016-09-14 07:30:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Laurens Punani
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Laurens Punani wrote:
dude, plexing accounts is easy.... plexing accounts with mining takes more interaction than plexing accounts with ratting. In an Ishtar you dont need to produce, you dont need to sell.. you just have to deploy drones every 30 minutes:D I've done both, i will still be able to do both after whatever changes may come. People with 2 million SP, one account and 30 bucks of pocket money dont have the choice... They can either play something that pays enough to fund their eve-career or just dont play at all.
Thats plain stupid.
also: show me the incursion-boost, that boosts your incursion income by 100% :D:D:D

take it you are not familiar with common-sense?
No, PLEXing with mining really doesn't take more interaction, it just takes more time. If you want to argue actually producing in addition to that we're now talking about something else, in which case ratters /mission runners/etc should be able to count their faction/deadspace loot for added interaction as well.

Also you haven't ratted much recently if you're only launching drones every 30 min. That or you're making isk for 2 min min and idling in space next to dead drones for the other 28.

I do like how you're trying to be selective and move goal posts though. Between turning "mining income" into an entire supply chain while ignoring market interactions that come from other forms of PvE now you're narrowing from saying no other form of PvE increases profit from boosts to it having to be a 100% increase to count.

I'm fully familiar with common sense, which says you can make isk mining without boosts. The 2 million SP new player solo mining doesn't have Orca boosts so you're hypothetical argument that it's for their sake is fundamentally a lie as well, but it still works for the one doing it.



wrong in so many ways :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAaWGE-QXG4

still works. switch out the damace control for another DDA, one power diagnostic system for a tracking enhancer... ger a drone navigation computer as well and TADAAA, 22 m/isk every 20 minutes ;)

also: are you serious? why should someone start mining for 10 million isk/h when he can simply fly a VNI for 50-70 million isk/h???

AND: you dont actually earn Isk by mining, you get ore. There is no NPC to sell it to, so after mining you have to find a way of creating isk with you ore.... a lot more interaction than ratting... I

AND: income for solo miners WILL drop by 50% while people in big alliances still make just as much/even more money.

AND: There is no other income boost like the mining boosts... nowhere... if there is, please show me where so i can do that all day long:D :D:D

sometimes its even funny to read what you guys are saying...
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1248 - 2016-09-14 08:05:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Laurens Punani wrote:
wrong in so many ways :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAaWGE-QXG4

still works. switch out the damace control for another DDA, one power diagnostic system for a tracking enhancer... ger a drone navigation computer as well and TADAAA, 22 m/isk every 20 minutes ;)

also: are you serious? why should someone start mining for 10 million isk/h when he can simply fly a VNI for 50-70 million isk/h???
Not everyone has access to secure null? Not everyone has the ability to park a VNI for 20 min without harassment? Drone aggro isn't a constant making that unreliable? Not everyone os so bad at mining that they only make 10m/h?

Also that undermines your argument about boosts as well. Why are you mining at 20 mill per hour when there's such great effortless isk out there? Why is anyone?

Either you're not willing to put in the minimal effort you say it takes or you just like making crap isk, which is crap specifically because of the non-existent barrier of entry and riskless boosts further devaluing minerals.

Laurens Punani wrote:
AND: income for solo miners WILL drop by 50% while people in big alliances still make just as much/even more money.

AND: There is no other income boost like the mining boosts... nowhere... if there is, please show me where so i can do that all day long:D :D:D

sometimes its even funny to read what you guys are saying...
Impossible unless those large alliances increase mining output to account for what you're losing of mineral consumption plummets by that same amount. Or are you under the mistaken impression that ore/mineral prices are determined in a vacuum?

Also who are these solo miners with boosts? If they're teaming with other players they aren't solo and if they're under 4 accounts, which vast majority of the playerbase is believed to be, they were better getting every ship in a barge instead.
Laurens Punani
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1249 - 2016-09-14 08:30:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Laurens Punani
1.) works like a charm in any space with anomalies
2.) Go kill one of those every 2 hours, still more income than a procurer without boosts oh wait... you have to park them for 20 minutes as well... dont know why you cant see that...
3.) Drone aggro is constant, making it very reliable... if you dont understand drone aggro you should probably read into that...
4.) You can calculate the income of a miner pretty easyly... a yield-fitted hulk with a dedicated hauler and max rorq. boosts mining 5% spodumain in Sov-Null anomalies and having about 7% DT due to asteroids running out makes about 47.5m isk per hour.

take away the boosts and that is 20 m/isk
take away the hauler and that is 12 m/isk
use a Skiff or Procurer because you are alone and need SOME tank and thats 7m isk/h

There is no skill involved in this, its just math. Your income is higher if you mine ice/bistot and other stuff, but on average it is 10million isk/h even in the nicest pieces of sov-null :))

You see: mining works out if you have a few accounts, full boosts and proper intel. All the stuff that big alliances have plenty of.
If you have.. lets say... 15 accounts, 10 of which are extracting SP with a maximum remap and +4 implants and you are mining for 30 hours/month you make about 32 billion isk in minerals and skill injectors. (-15 b for pelx)

If you have ... lets say.... 1 account, you make 300 million in the same time if you mine (-1b for plex?!?!?!?)
and 1800 million if you use a vexor navy issue

+ Those numbers are for fully skilled pilots (miners using t1 lasers) which, in both cases, take about 5.5 million SP. A lot more for the hauler and booster of course, but that is a different subject.

Mining/ratting have exactly the same entry barrier

+ most people who start playing eve are solo players, most of which are introduced to mining via the "tutorial" and almost all of them DONT get into huge alliances. up until now they could recieve boosts anywhere. from november on they will rarely find anyone willing to risk his ship just to help noobs... or at least they wont be found as much as they are right now.


Edit: A huge alliance with 500 mining chars does not really care if they mine 1 trillion isk or 1.05 trillion isk per month. A small alliance does care if it mines 50 billion per month or nothing at all :D:D:D . If prices go up by 10%, mining without boosts is still a big pile of bullcrap while mining deep in SOV-Null will a huge blue donut becomes 10% more profitable. Dont tell me "people can get a small boosting ship" -- They could, but if they only have 1 account their income just dropped to 0
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1250 - 2016-09-14 15:07:24 UTC
It seems you are suffering from two very common afflictions that shitposters are often affected by:

1. Selectis readingum

The inane ability to somehow pick out all the points at support ones own argument while somehow repeatedly ignoring counterpoints that harm the shitposters own.

2. Tunnelvisionitis

Common disease where the victim is fixated on one point of contention ignoring all context and criticisms

So we've told you how none of your methods will fix mineral prices, the only way mining can become more profitable at this point is either more **** gets blown up, or less people mining.

That's how basic supply and demand works, bringing everyone up or down to one level will just **** people off who have worked to generate the infrastructure needed to operate efficient mining fleets.

You've detailed how terrible mining is for a new player attempting it solo, so this is a great place to pivot and swing them over to do things that ARENT mining and may possibly cause mineral consumption.

Your point about how a solo account will have 0 profit if using a boosting ship. Who's thought process is so damaged that their first step in mining would be to get a boosting ship with only one account?

I also like how you've attached a tangible number to a 'big' alliance to make sure the 0.05 increase seems insignificant enough and when speaking about a 'small' alliance you completely avoid that. Also again, how will not having boosts reduce their income to 0?

Also I chuckled a little when you spoke about risk. What is a rorqual pilot 'risking' at the moment when boosting from inside a pos shield? Of course they will be much more inclined now to invite people to fleet because there literally is ZERO risk.

i like how you've also somehow inserted sp extraction as something relevant to mining. You might as well add that all 15 characters can all set up PI and rat in VNIs at the same time as well. OH MY GOD ALL THE ISK FROM SOMEONE PUTTING APPROPRIATE INVESTMENTS INTO GETTING IT, CCPLEASE NERF

Also you keep toting this 50% number, where are you getting this from? Sure rorqual boosts with industrial core might be less prevalent, but it's not like mining boosts are being removed completely. There will be other sources small corps and solo players can take advantage of.

Due to your selectis readingum you seem to have missed what I said about incursions being significantly better isk when organised around boosts. Wormhole PVE can also get significantly affected since it may be the difference between having to risk 1 more ship on field and not, or just better clear times due to the ability to fit less tank.

I know a really good doctor that can help you with both of your conditions, he specialises in extracting bullshit from people.

Art of Explosions
Laurens Punani
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1251 - 2016-09-14 16:17:05 UTC
"It seems you are suffering from two very common afflictions that shitposters are often affected by:

1. Selectis readingum

The inane ability to somehow pick out all the points at support ones own argument while somehow repeatedly ignoring counterpoints that harm the shitposters own.

2. Tunnelvisionitis

Common disease where the victim is fixated on one point of contention ignoring all context and criticisms

So we've told you how none of your methods will fix mineral prices, the only way mining can become more profitable at this point is either more **** gets blown up, or less people mining."

Prices dont need fixing,never said that :D follow your own advices friend :)



"You've detailed how terrible mining is for a new player attempting it solo, so this is a great place to pivot and swing them over to do things that ARENT mining and may possibly cause mineral consumption."

at the moment mining is okay... cut the profit in half and its dogshit. how many people lose their ships while ratting? I dont see my mineral consumption rise if i decide to rat for a month or two instead of mining... not at all :D

Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Your point about how a solo account will have 0 profit if using a boosting ship. Who's thought process is so damaged that their first step in mining would be to get a boosting ship with only one account?

I also like how you've attached a tangible number to a 'big' alliance to make sure the 0.05 increase seems insignificant enough and when speaking about a 'small' alliance you completely avoid that. Also again, how will not having boosts reduce their income to 0?


dude... think, for once... " Who's thought process is so damaged that their first step in mining would be to get a boosting ship with only one account" all the people in NRDS-space with only 1 account can not continue mining if they want to make anything close to what they made as soon as the boosters are on grid. they wont have one --> they wont bother mining for no money at all --> they will do other things

Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Also I chuckled a little when you spoke about risk. What is a rorqual pilot 'risking' at the moment when boosting from inside a pos shield? Of course they will be much more inclined now to invite people to fleet because there literally is ZERO risk.


-.- really? there is no risk for the booster right now, but i would consider 12 hulks (400 million each) and a frighter a pretty big investment. if a caracal warps into the anomaly the chances of killing 1 or 2 hulks before dieing are pretty good. there is (as of now) no protection but running away before they come into the anomaly. thats the risk while mining

Tsukino Stareine wrote:
i like how you've also somehow inserted sp extraction as something relevant to mining. You might as well add that all 15 characters can all set up PI and rat in VNIs at the same time as well. OH MY GOD ALL THE ISK FROM SOMEONE PUTTING APPROPRIATE INVESTMENTS INTO GETTING IT, CCPLEASE NERF


You might do some pi stuff.. people do it, but you cant multibox 25 VNI... there arent enough anomalies to do that. otherwise you might be right. still, my point was, that other professions dont NEED multiboxing to be 6 times as efficient as solo mining. sorry if you misunderstood that.

Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Also you keep toting this 50% number, where are you getting this from? Sure rorqual boosts with industrial core might be less prevalent, but it's not like mining boosts are being removed completely. There will be other sources small corps and solo players can take advantage of.


IF MINING BOOSTS WERE REMOVED COMPLETLY THE INCOME WOULD NOT DROP; YOU SAID IT YOURSELF!!!
lets take a look at the dev blog, shall we? right now, most of the people in NRDS-space are recieving full rorqual boosts. you already statet, that if everyone recieves boosts the income wont change since everyone gets more minerals.

-57.13%

That is the cycle time bonus from november on. Do the math and see, that with a boost you get 230% of what an unboost char gets. Considering that deep-sov null CAN provide those boosts the overall amount of ore mined wont change much... if it did not change at all a normal miner would drop down to 40-45% of his current income. Considering that the prices MIGHT go up i went the modest way and said those people would only lose 50% of their income. I left school quite some time ago, but i am still pretty sure the formula for things like these is x=1/(1-57,13) where x is the relative amount of ore mined by a boosted char and 1 is the amount of ore mined by an unboost char. correct me if i am wrong)

Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Due to your selectis readingum you seem to have missed what I said about incursions being significantly better isk when organised around boosts. Wormhole PVE can also get significantly affected since it may be the difference between having to risk 1 more ship on field and not, or just better clear times due to the ability to fit less tank.

I know a really good doctor that can help you with both of your conditions, he specialises in extracting bullshit from people.


i read that... how much do you think is that? 10, maybe 20% ? those numbers sound fair! 130-150% ? thats just plain bullshit :D

im not reading this anymore. if you just want to attack me personally because you cannot deny that i am right i might as well assume
Henry Plantgenet
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1252 - 2016-09-14 16:32:03 UTC
CCP can you please add to the highsec graph of incursions for each site type (except scout sites) either +1 or +2 before reducing payout.

Because Boosts are going to have to be ongrid not offgrid the change adversely affects the efficiency of the fleets as well as increase the risks for the fleets.

This negative unforseen external effect should be equally compensated. (it's unforseen because people don't take PVE into account when they make new features.)
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1253 - 2016-09-14 16:46:46 UTC
Laurens Punani wrote:
Prices dont need fixing,never said that :D follow your own advices friend :)

at the moment mining is okay... cut the profit in half and its dogshit. how many people lose their ships while ratting? I dont see my mineral consumption rise if i decide to rat for a month or two instead of mining... not at all :D

dude... think, for once... " Who's thought process is so damaged that their first step in mining would be to get a boosting ship with only one account" all the people in NRDS-space with only 1 account can not continue mining if they want to make anything close to what they made as soon as the boosters are on grid. they wont have one --> they wont bother mining for no money at all --> they will do other things

-.- really? there is no risk for the booster right now, but i would consider 12 hulks (400 million each) and a frighter a pretty big investment. if a caracal warps into the anomaly the chances of killing 1 or 2 hulks before dieing are pretty good. there is (as of now) no protection but running away before they come into the anomaly. thats the risk while mining

You might do some pi stuff.. people do it, but you cant multibox 25 VNI... there arent enough anomalies to do that. otherwise you might be right. still, my point was, that other professions dont NEED multiboxing to be 6 times as efficient as solo mining. sorry if you misunderstood that.

IF MINING BOOSTS WERE REMOVED COMPLETLY THE INCOME WOULD NOT DROP; YOU SAID IT YOURSELF!!!
lets take a look at the dev blog, shall we? right now, most of the people in NRDS-space are recieving full rorqual boosts. you already statet, that if everyone recieves boosts the income wont change since everyone gets more minerals.

-57.13%

That is the cycle time bonus from november on. Do the math and see, that with a boost you get 230% of what an unboost char gets. Considering that deep-sov null CAN provide those boosts the overall amount of ore mined wont change much... if it did not change at all a normal miner would drop down to 40-45% of his current income. Considering that the prices MIGHT go up i went the modest way and said those people would only lose 50% of their income. I left school quite some time ago, but i am still pretty sure the formula for things like these is x=1/(1-57,13) where x is the relative amount of ore mined by a boosted char and 1 is the amount of ore mined by an unboost char. correct me if i am wrong)


i read that... how much do you think is that? 10, maybe 20% ? those numbers sound fair! 130-150% ? thats just plain bullshit :D

im not reading this anymore. if you just want to attack me personally because you cannot deny that i am right i might as well assume


1. The whole point of your terrible ideas are about fixing mineral prices to make mining more attractive for new players. Just because you're too short sighted to summarise it in this way does not make it untrue.

2. If indeed these changes go through and we see a reduction in rorqual use because of the risk attached. How many people will just either

A: use an orca instead
B: boost without the core

The yield will lower, only the large alliances who can afford to field and protect their rorquals will continue. Minerals will go up in price and the big alliances get a bigger cut of he pie BECAUSE THEY EARN IT

3. Again your ego is taking over, not everything is about you. If we see a general increase of VNIs then we will see an increase of VNIs being killed, making more demand for them and of course driving up the costs of minerals to build them, making mining more profitable. See where I'm going with this? People choosing not to mine is what's going to fix mineral prices, not your half baked ideas about how to remove mining boosts or give them to everyone.

4. So we've moved from a rorqual in a NRDS zone giving out free boosts to random people to a full on solo multi box operation of 12 hulks. Make up your mind please.

5. Other sources of income don't get more efficient with multi boxing? I'm sorry are we playing the same game? Some aspects of PVE are completely not doable unless you're multi boxing or running with a fleet. Try high class wormholes, smartbombing anoms and level 5 missions.

Mining is possibly one of the WORST scaling professions for multi boxing.

6. So you literally have no idea of how much mineral prices will shift and how much less ore will be mined and just throwing out random numbers that you feel are right.

Ok

6. Again just pulling numbers from absolute thin air. I'm not sure how much faster an incursion group will be with boosts and I'm not stupid or arrogant enough to slap a number on it, however what I do know is that pretty much every incursion fleet will run with links. It's that important.

You can stop reading what I'm writing, doesn't make it any less right and the people will see that.

Art of Explosions
Donmadefy
Fuxi Legion
Fraternity.
#1254 - 2016-09-14 16:59:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Donmadefy
So a single player now will have a harder time at running command boost with an alt vs a group of players.
How dose this balance for the small guy.

Tell me CCP as you're claiming this will help the little guy. More fairness to your command link restructuring, or just a ploy to blob more in hopes of membership subscriptions.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1255 - 2016-09-14 17:46:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Laurens Punani wrote:
1.) works like a charm in any space with anomalies Yeah, but most space with anomalies is crap to rat is because of most other sites having frig spawns wich do agress drones more often, and most other anoms being crap in general so you need decent sov to farm hubs
2.) Go kill one of those every 2 hours, still more income than a procurer without boosts oh wait... you have to park them for 20 minutes as well... dont know why you cant see that...YGiven your numbers below you'd have to be doing it wrong as the desparity betwen yield on the 2 isn't that great when accounting for the fact that a proc/skiff/ret/mac can all stay in belts longer than a hulk
3.) Drone aggro is constant, making it very reliable... if you dont understand drone aggro you should probably read into that...No, it really isn't because of observed behaviors where NPCs WILL switch aggro a fixed 2 min after launching. You can try warping out and back in to see if it resets, but each new wave seems to have a chance to trigger that behavior. Also if in a site with elite frigs and cruisers you can just forget it.
4.) You can calculate the income of a miner pretty easyly... a yield-fitted hulk with a dedicated hauler and max rorq. boosts mining 5% spodumain in Sov-Null anomalies and having about 7% DT due to asteroids running out makes about 47.5m isk per hour.

take away the boosts and that is 20 m/isk
take away the hauler and that is 12 m/isk
use a Skiff or Procurer because you are alone and need SOME tank and thats 7m isk/h

There is no skill involved in this, its just math. Your income is higher if you mine ice/bistot and other stuff, but on average it is 10million isk/h even in the nicest pieces of sov-null :)) - Why would you compare a yield fitted hulk to a tank fitted proc? Sure you weren't alone in that hulk, but you were still in a wet paper bag with less than the base tank of a proc. That's a stacked comparison. Probably an intentional one

You see: mining works out if you have a few accounts, full boosts and proper intel. All the stuff that big alliances have plenty of.
If you have.. lets say... 15 accounts, 10 of which are extracting SP with a maximum remap and +4 implants and you are mining for 30 hours/month you make about 32 billion isk in minerals and skill injectors. (-15 b for pelx)

If you have ... lets say.... 1 account, you make 300 million in the same time if you mine (-1b for plex?!?!?!?)
and 1800 million if you use a vexor navy issue

+ Those numbers are for fully skilled pilots (miners using t1 lasers) which, in both cases, take about 5.5 million SP. A lot more for the hauler and booster of course, but that is a different subject. - Mining "works" regardless of what you have. You could mine in a venture solo and have it work. What you're talking about isn't it working, it's earning PLEX with it which isn't an entitlement or base evaluation of whether something works.

Mining/ratting have exactly the same entry barrier - They really don't, take it from someone who mines AFK. A Proc and some awareness every few min is all the solo miner needs. You can get more complex with alts/haulers, but that's well beyond barrier of entry. In fact the barrier of entry is even lower at a single venture. Getting any ratting results from a T1 frig doesn't really hold true conversely but a venture can actually beat my procurer in yield

+ most people who start playing eve are solo players, most of which are introduced to mining via the "tutorial" and almost all of them DONT get into huge alliances. up until now they could recieve boosts anywhere. from november on they will rarely find anyone willing to risk his ship just to help noobs... or at least they wont be found as much as they are right now. - Which is fine first off, and 2nd means the way is open for them to learn how to safely pilot boosting ships and offer that help themselves in the future. Maybe even for a profit. If someone want to offer boosts they'll find a way.


Edit: A huge alliance with 500 mining chars does not really care if they mine 1 trillion isk or 1.05 trillion isk per month. A small alliance does care if it mines 50 billion per month or nothing at all :D:D:D . If prices go up by 10%, mining without boosts is still a big pile of bullcrap while mining deep in SOV-Null will a huge blue donut becomes 10% more profitable. Dont tell me "people can get a small boosting ship" -- They could, but if they only have 1 account their income just dropped to 0 - Hyperbolic and contradictory BS. Either those alliances were carrying the whole of the weight of mineral production and the random solo miners didn't matter and truly weren't making a dent in demand AND were all using boosts down to the last to make that happen or they were and were pulling significant ore and will continue to afterwards because they can still boost or will go unchanged because a significant portion aren't using boosts as is
TheRageCarrier
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1256 - 2016-09-14 17:47:16 UTC
Guess a lot of small corps like mine will be selling off their roquals and not running boosts on orcas. Not worth 3 bil in losses to keep that monster in grid in an easily probed down colossal belt. Way to f the little guy devs.
Balder Verdandi
Wormhole Sterilization Crew
#1257 - 2016-09-14 18:23:39 UTC
TheRageCarrier wrote:
Guess a lot of small corps like mine will be selling off their roquals and not running boosts on orcas. Not worth 3 bil in losses to keep that monster in grid in an easily probed down colossal belt. Way to f the little guy devs.



This is it in a nutshell.

Corporations on the smaller size won't be providing boosts, even for neutrals in system to help those in NPC corps, or corps that are smaller than their own.

We're already planning to sell off the extra couple of Orca's and Orca BPC's. We can't see a 1.5b ISK loss with having an Orca sitting in a belt, "shooting" boosts and flagging a suspect timer, because CCP forgot about the smaller corps like mine.


Forgotten again. Thanks Fozzie.

Long live the failure of "Unified Inventory"!

POS fix dated back to 2006!
TheRageCarrier
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1258 - 2016-09-14 18:31:08 UTC
Balder Verdandi wrote:
TheRageCarrier wrote:
Guess a lot of small corps like mine will be selling off their roquals and not running boosts on orcas. Not worth 3 bil in losses to keep that monster in grid in an easily probed down colossal belt. Way to f the little guy devs.



This is it in a nutshell.

Corporations on the smaller size won't be providing boosts, even for neutrals in system to help those in NPC corps, or corps that are smaller than their own.

We're already planning to sell off the extra couple of Orca's and Orca BPC's. We can't see a 1.5b ISK loss with having an Orca sitting in a belt, "shooting" boosts and flagging a suspect timer, because CCP forgot about the smaller corps like mine.


Forgotten again. Thanks Fozzie.


Should just trade in all our mining ships for Anom Domi`s and let the markets crash. Not much sand left in the box these days.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#1259 - 2016-09-14 18:33:08 UTC
TheRageCarrier wrote:
Balder Verdandi wrote:
TheRageCarrier wrote:
Guess a lot of small corps like mine will be selling off their roquals and not running boosts on orcas. Not worth 3 bil in losses to keep that monster in grid in an easily probed down colossal belt. Way to f the little guy devs.



This is it in a nutshell.

Corporations on the smaller size won't be providing boosts, even for neutrals in system to help those in NPC corps, or corps that are smaller than their own.

We're already planning to sell off the extra couple of Orca's and Orca BPC's. We can't see a 1.5b ISK loss with having an Orca sitting in a belt, "shooting" boosts and flagging a suspect timer, because CCP forgot about the smaller corps like mine.


Forgotten again. Thanks Fozzie.


Should just trade in all our mining ships for Anom Domi`s and let the markets crash. Not much sand left in the box these days.


so smaller groups may no longer be able to use the end game booster and npc toons will have a harder time getting boosts?

the horror

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#1260 - 2016-09-14 18:53:54 UTC
Donmadefy wrote:
So a single player now will have a harder time at running command boost with an alt vs a group of players.
How dose this balance for the small guy.

Tell me CCP as you're claiming this will help the little guy. More fairness to your command link restructuring, or just a ploy to blob more in hopes of membership subscriptions.



The blob has the same issues as (not) solo (already covered, dual boxing is not solo a fleet booster self run or player run is stll a second ship running), they have to keep track of boost timers and be in range of the next cycle. In theory you will get lucky and fast tackle is out of range for the burst. His boosts fade, no new ones...easier tackle kill.

this change gets boosters out of deep safes and/or dancing around structure shields. they are on the field and killable now. Its an improvement. As in current setup your (not) solo pilot was dealing with boosters they could never see anyway. Now if the (not) solo player can't drop the booster when on grid in a ball of ships about to spread the x km's of aoe boost that's how it goes. SSDD for the solo player really and not much change. As is now, that booster was untouchable anyway as solo couldn't scan this down and scare it off anyway. Its now touchable....lack of dps/alpha to drop it that's another issue.

And CCP has stuff in here to support this (non) solo stuff. the boosts only go away on docking and structure shield entry as I read it. Gate jumps keep the boosts in play. Put another way know your timers. Know they are good, jump jump jump. Think they will run out soon, stand by on outbound (or a celestial aligned to outbound) wait for old boost expiration, splash the boost then jump all newly boosted.