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Dev blog: Command Bursts and the New World of Fleet Boosting

First post First post
Author
Deep Space Cowboy
Crisis Gate
#581 - 2016-08-30 16:31:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Deep Space Cowboy
As a miner I am extremely disapointed with your decision to force miners to siege their rorquals in a belt just to maintain the same yield we currently enjoy. If you insist on going thru with these changes, could you please consider shortening the Industrial Core cycle time (and reducing the fuel cost to match) to something similar to the bastion cycle times? 5 minutes is an eternity to be stuck helplessly in a siege cycle when hostiles come roaming. Otherwise I don't see alot of miners outside of large nulsec power blocs being able to effective deploy and defend their rorquals.
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#582 - 2016-08-30 16:35:40 UTC
Arrendis wrote:

In small groups, you remove the force multipliers
....
Yes, they've applied their boosts... once. If they can't apply them again, then you've reduced the effectiveness of the rest of the fleet with that one kill.




You reduce the effectiveness of the fleet two minutes from now. That's a really long time in the small group fights you're talking about.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Krystyn
Serenity Rising LLC
#583 - 2016-08-30 16:36:18 UTC
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
Tess Storm wrote:

Why not make the game fun again, stop making everything difficult.

Wait you said fun again... as in afk mining? Fun really, is that what kids are calling it these days.


first off ore mining is not AFK. I do agree OGBs for mining are totally AFK in a majority of the situations hiding out in a POS or a deep safe. But with boosts the actual mining ships are working pretty hard to manage crystals and roid targets and drones etc. especially if they are multiboxing.

However, the whole crux of the argument is that mining is the absolute basis for EVERYTHING in eve. Nothing gets done without mining. Making mining harder or more annoying is just going to make everything else in eve more expensive. We should be going the other way. Making mining easier will make everything else cheaper. Remember when BCs were like 25million isk and fully fit for under 40 mil. I rat/mine/mission that up in an hour or two and then go get blown up in some fun PVP. It was easy to afford the losses and Im reasonably decent at PVP. But, not with everything a lot more expensive people who are part time PVPers get into it a lot loss since it costs so much and the total carebears have almost no incentive to try it out.

Also Rorquals in belts is idiotic at best unless these mining fighters have a ridiculous yield so that you can afford to buy new Rorquals every few days. A ceptor can dscan down the belt or anom in less time than the cycle of the indy core and your already tackled and then dead shortly afterwards. So the new rorqual changes better be damn good or rorquals will be only used for clones and as poor mans JFs. And no the new freeze everyone in place will not save you, but it may let more bad guys get in on the killmail
FearlessLittleToaster
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#584 - 2016-08-30 16:43:03 UTC
KhanidLady wrote:


you will get the panic button and a local/remote tank roughly close to a FAX. not good enough?


Nope! That local tank is only relevant if you can win the fight against whatever shows up to kill your hilarity-pinata. The first interceptor on scene doesn't have to kill you. He has to hold you on grid while spamming "RORQ TACKLED." A couple dreads and five minutes later and there isn't a local tank strong enough to save you. Or a Titan doomsday, that would be instant death no matter what. Or a half dozen BLOPS.

If I see a Rorq in an anom mining I know it's going to be there for a while. Assuming it roots itself in five minute increments to provide boosts it is an easy kill. All I need to do is batphone a titan, or enough dudes to overwhem the locals for a few minutes so I can bring in a dread, and it's toast. Then warp in a sabre, knowing that I will have plenty of time to bubble before it could possibly run. But most importantly I have all the time in the world to get that set up because I'm hitting a stationary target.

If the above is how the Rorq is going to work going forward they will become the toys of only the biggest and best organized blocs. As a Goon that would actually be kinda nice for me personally, but crushing thousands of other miners in smaller outfits would be horrible overall. There is no way a hundred man mining corp could use Rorquals if they lived within a couple BLOPS jumps of a halfway decent lowsec outfit, let alone PL or Goons.
FT Cold
No Vacancies
No Vacancies.
#585 - 2016-08-30 16:45:52 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Cold
Hi Fozzie, I like that boosts now affect your own ship even if you're not a member of a fleet, that's a nice touch and a decent boost to battlecruisers.

Any plans on adding something for the solo players out there? I didn't always use links, but they were definitely a nice thing to have when your opponents out escalated you and that's kind of going away with these changes. Solo play has become much more challenging over the years (not that I'm opposed to a challenge) and the pendulum has really swung into the favor of the blob with the changes to recons, hics, and carriers. It'd be nice to see implants, modules, or ships more geared towards solo pvp, and keep the paradigm at least a little bit removed from alt ECM, logi, etc.
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#586 - 2016-08-30 16:46:25 UTC
What if the command bursts were given an optimal similar to the currently proposed ranges, but then also had a falloff that's 2x or 3x the optimal?
KhanidLady
White Knight Social Club
Streamfleet
#587 - 2016-08-30 16:47:18 UTC
FearlessLittleToaster wrote:
KhanidLady wrote:


you will get the panic button and a local/remote tank roughly close to a FAX. not good enough?


Nope! That local tank is only relevant if you can win the fight against whatever shows up to kill your hilarity-pinata. The first interceptor on scene doesn't have to kill you. He has to hold you on grid while spamming "RORQ TACKLED." A couple dreads and five minutes later and there isn't a local tank strong enough to save you. Or a Titan doomsday, that would be instant death no matter what. Or a half dozen BLOPS.

If I see a Rorq in an anom mining I know it's going to be there for a while. Assuming it roots itself in five minute increments to provide boosts it is an easy kill. All I need to do is batphone a titan, or enough dudes to overwhem the locals for a few minutes so I can bring in a dread, and it's toast. Then warp in a sabre, knowing that I will have plenty of time to bubble before it could possibly run. But most importantly I have all the time in the world to get that set up because I'm hitting a stationary target.

If the above is how the Rorq is going to work going forward they will become the toys of only the biggest and best organized blocs. As a Goon that would actually be kinda nice for me personally, but crushing thousands of other miners in smaller outfits would be horrible overall. There is no way a hundred man mining corp could use Rorquals if they lived within a couple BLOPS jumps of a halfway decent lowsec outfit, let alone PL or Goons.


I am sure goons will manage to have defense fleets up. worked for your ratting carriers too.
Krystyn
Serenity Rising LLC
#588 - 2016-08-30 16:48:02 UTC
KhanidLady wrote:
FearlessLittleToaster wrote:
Wall of text


you will get the panic button and a local/remote tank roughly close to a FAX. not good enough?


Not even close. People will come out of the woodwork to 'rorqual tackled in belt X in system Y' on any channel I've ever been in.
And I'm sorry, but a single curse or geddon will eventually cap out a FAX or Rorqual and neither of them can do anything to stop that.

Yes, I know they should have a support fleet, but how many PVPers do you know who will hang out and guard people mining?
And the Panic Button freeze locks the barges in place so they can't reship so your pretty much just delaying your death for 5 minutes.
Lonan O'Labhradha
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#589 - 2016-08-30 16:48:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Lonan O'Labhradha
Krystyn wrote:
[quote=Delt0r Garsk]
Also Rorquals in belts is idiotic ...


This points to the fact that a Capital Mining Ship has to do something more than compress and boost and mine a bit. They have to be worth bringing which is what most miners want.

I would say that the appropriate design direction for the Rorqual is to start with the idea that we could make it like the analog between ratting in an Ishtar and ratting in a Thanatos.

So when you deploy your Thanatos, you make sure you do it in a relatively well-protected space. You bubble up the gates that form the entrances to your constellation, you rat in the back of the constellation (the system that takes the most jumps to reach), and you post scouts in the entry systems.

That, at least, is how most smart carrier ratters seem to operate.

You operate the Rorqual in a similar way... The issue is that CCP wants you to SIEGE the Rorqual which is not something you do with an exposed solo capital ship in null which is where the disconnect is.

Typically, the ships that Siege in Null are Ratting Marauders which are not preferred, but you see the occasional Vargur... Most Ratting Marauders are used to do 10/10s--forcing you to probe down the ship and jump acceleration gates to reach it, giving it time to unsiege and safe up.

I think that miners are correct in their misgivings about belt sieging. Perhaps if CCP added Deadspace or Scanned Mining Anomalies that you had to probe down or pick up Journal coordinates by killing rats, this type of activity would be viable, but I totally agree that sieging in a belt in null is kinda reckless.

Of course, people do it with Marauders... Not many, but some do rat in warpable anomalies in Marauders.
Drago Misharie
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#590 - 2016-08-30 16:48:49 UTC
KhanidLady wrote:
Thogn wrote:
(( My German is way better than my English ))

I'll try to stay super-calm.

There are many open points with boosting itself - so I'm astonished ... CCP is already jumping.

1.) I think, the basic idea is good. To hide a booster in nowhere - didn't really make sense to me.
2.) I'm positive to some of the changes coming, but here are my issues :

Assumed :
a) you are a single customer with two ( 2 ) hands and two ( 2 ) accounts.
b) you invested a lifetime to come up with one charcter for small gang PvP and another one for support.
The support character is a perfect booster. ( Fleet Command 5 is missing ... Rest is T2-fully there. )
Up to now you could "park" your booster in the skies of New Eden and give continuous boosts to your fleet.
c) if this is no longer valid - and the boosts have only a few kilometers reach on grid - that's interesting - because
d) the booster is then proud to shout : " I am the primary target."
e) Therof follow 2 things :
e1) if fielded - the booster himself will raise more acceptance and
e2) because of d) the booster pilot might be quite busy - right ?

Here comes the joke : because of a)
... it will be impossible to a single customer to run his 2 accounts simultaneously and therefor
... a customer in the above constellation will consolidate his 2 accounts to one. ( at least )

o7

You need more thinking on the issues.


you perfectly explained what is broken with the old system. Thank you for that.
And as a counter point ... let a friend fly the link ship with you. 2 people and you might actually have more fun.

EULA violation
Krystyn
Serenity Rising LLC
#591 - 2016-08-30 16:49:51 UTC
FearlessLittleToaster wrote:
KhanidLady wrote:


you will get the panic button and a local/remote tank roughly close to a FAX. not good enough?


Nope! That local tank is only relevant if you can win the fight against whatever shows up to kill your hilarity-pinata. The first interceptor on scene doesn't have to kill you. He has to hold you on grid while spamming "RORQ TACKLED." A couple dreads and five minutes later and there isn't a local tank strong enough to save you. Or a Titan doomsday, that would be instant death no matter what. Or a half dozen BLOPS.

If I see a Rorq in an anom mining I know it's going to be there for a while. Assuming it roots itself in five minute increments to provide boosts it is an easy kill. All I need to do is batphone a titan, or enough dudes to overwhem the locals for a few minutes so I can bring in a dread, and it's toast. Then warp in a sabre, knowing that I will have plenty of time to bubble before it could possibly run. But most importantly I have all the time in the world to get that set up because I'm hitting a stationary target.

If the above is how the Rorq is going to work going forward they will become the toys of only the biggest and best organized blocs. As a Goon that would actually be kinda nice for me personally, but crushing thousands of other miners in smaller outfits would be horrible overall. There is no way a hundred man mining corp could use Rorquals if they lived within a couple BLOPS jumps of a halfway decent lowsec outfit, let alone PL or Goons.


I agree with a Goon...what is EVE coming to
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#592 - 2016-08-30 16:55:13 UTC
Agul Chith wrote:
After seeing the proposed changes I'm less worried. But still have two big concerns...

1. That range... not everyone anchors up and presses F1. Need more range for small gangs who tend to spread out more.

2. The ammo idea is just plain dumb. Please use scripts instead.


1. Bring multiple boosters that follow the various combat units in space (new gameplay)
2. Scripts are a one time purchase. Ammo, similar to interdiction charges, promote industry for a near identical feature
Suitonia
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#593 - 2016-08-30 16:55:16 UTC
Hi Fozzie, these look absolutely amazing, I have one caveat however.

Please consider replacing the Evasive Manuever effect, it is still by far the most powerful link and exceeds a powerlevel of all the other warfare links by being significantly stronger than the HG implant counterpart. HG Halos+Strong X-Instinct is roughly the same as Evasive Maneuevering, and it causes so many problems with missile balance, it is much more difficult to balance missile systems like Heavy Missiles while Evasive Maneuevering is in the game, every Tech I cruiser while webbed gets damage mitigation from HMLs when hit by EM, often reducing damage by 32.34%. This makes it difficult to balance because you either have to account for insane damage mitigation (EM requires roughly 48% more tracking on a ship to hit it at the same effectiveness as the same ship shooting an unlinked ship) and it is an entirely passive.

I know some players feel that this is essential for dealing with bombs in nullsec, but bomb explosion radius could just be increased to compensate.

Things that I think would be good alternatives
Agility: You removed the 15% passive agility and unlike other old passive effects they haven't been compensated into a new link or rolled in. An agility boosting link would be useful for damage mitigation, kiting and oversized AB stuff. (Higher agility means you can create higher angular velocities through sharper turning circles) Brawlers would also like this as it helps slingshot targets. This is a much more 'active' feeling damage mitigation tool. Agility is useful in other areas too for pinging or travelling.
MWD/AB cap reduction: lower cap usage on prop modules helps a lot of doctrine fits that want to always MWD, helps kiters sustain, helps brawlers with lower cap costs on MWD/AB feeding into tank instead.



Contributer to Eve is Easy:  https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos

Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o

Krystyn
Serenity Rising LLC
#594 - 2016-08-30 16:57:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Krystyn
Lonan O'Labhradha wrote:
Krystyn wrote:
[quote=Delt0r Garsk]
Also Rorquals in belts is idiotic ...


This points to the fact that a Capital Mining Ship has to do something more than compress and boost and mine a bit. They have to be worth bringing which is what most miners want.

I would say that the appropriate design direction for the Rorqual is to make it like the analog between ratting in an Ishtar and ratting in a Thanatos.

So when you deploy your Thanatos, you make sure you do it in a relatively well-protected space. You bubble up the gates that form the entrances to your constellation, you rat in the back of the constellation (the system that takes the most jumps to reach), and you post scouts in the entry systems.

That, at least, is how most smart carrier ratters seem to operate.

You operate the Rorqual in a similar way... The issue is that CCP wants you to SIEGE the Rorqual which is not something you do with an exposed solo capital ship in null which is where the disconnect is.

Typically, the ships that Siege in Null are Ratting Marauders which are not preferred, but you see the occasional Vargur... Most Ratting Marauders are used to do 10/10s--forcing you to probe down the ship and jump acceleration gates to reach it, giving it time to unsiege and safe up.

I think that miners are correct in their misgivings about belt sieging. Perhaps if CCP added Deadspace or Scanned Mining Anomalies that you had to probe down or pick up Journal coordinates by killing rats, this type of activity would be viable, but I totally agree that sieging in a belt in null is kinda reckless.


Indeed trying to catch a tengu or marauder in the back end of a plex is pretty tough. Only managed it a few times. Gotta scan it down and then run through the gates and catch them, which involves some failures on their part to notice your probes and to get out before you get to them. So if people had to probe down a mining belt that had a gate or two then it might make sense to siege a rorqual for the impressive mining boosts and mining fighters. Also for PVPers and I a trick I know I will attempt to use is I will search for these belts when they are empty and BM for later hoping someone is in them and skip the whole seeing my probes on d-scan bit. But this helps get the risk/reward to be a bit more balanced. If clearing out a few of these 'hidden' belts will cover the cost of a rorqual they may actually get used and isn't that the point.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#595 - 2016-08-30 17:01:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
Quote:
Mining Foreman: Mining Laser Field Enhancement: 30% (+2%) increased range
Mining Foreman: Mining Laser Optimization: 15% (+3%) reduced cycle time and cap use
Mining Foreman: Mining Equipment Preservation: 15% (+3%) reduced mining crystal volitility

T1 Industrial Core (while active): 100% (+50%) bonus to Mining Foreman and Shield Command Burst Area of Effect Range
T2 Industrial Core (while active): 200% (+100%) bonus to Mining Foreman and Shield Command Burst Area of Effect Range

Rorqual: 5% (+1%) bonus to Mining Foreman Burst Strength and Duration per skill level


Does anyone know what the final (max) stats for these will be?

I hate to be the one to look a gift horse in the mouth, but I am still very much against having to use the industrial core for boosting. I would have even been willing to suffer a few nerfs in other areas for it, but the absolute risk of having such an exspensive ship locked in place for potentially hours is not very balanced for the reward when compared to the other two options.

My prediction is that after a few weeks of misguided (or uninformed) belt boosting and losses, we won't actually see the rorqual in belts more often. Short of individuals who can recoup the cost of a fully fitted and insured rorqual in a relatively short period of time (i.e. Hardcore multiboxers), it will see less use for anyone who doesn't meet that criteria. If the lockdown was simply removed, I can practically gauruntee that the rorqual will be in belts much more often than with that penalty. I've caught a few rorquals (and a freighter or two) and typically it never goes well for the owner. The defense fleets either weren't quick enough, never arrived due to our overwhelming force, or I was in a gimmick-hyperspatial-fit machariel and 15 procurers on grid kindly informed me that I had the wrong ship. Nothing out of the ordinary here in the scheme of things, but having a seige mode makes it even worse than any other tackled capital (not to mention the other dead barges).

A little note on my own usage of the rorqual:
I'm not a fan of needing multiple accounts, especially for mundane tasks that are only needed for brief moments. Thus, I have pretty much settled on my 4 accounts and make the best of them. I could probably run more, but I honestly don't feel like subbing more accounts (if my machine could even handle it), or working for PLEX every month (rather spend it on pvp ships). That aside, I use 3 skiffs in the belt, and a rorqual boosting from the POS. Before I begin my sessions, I warp the rorqual to the anoms, run a survey scan, and bookmark areas of decent concentration of valuable ores. I warp back in at range and drop the can, warp the skiffs to the belt, Rorq to the POS/Citadel, and start mining. Every half hour or so, I turn off the Indy core and warp to the belt to collect my work. Warp back to the POS, compress, and begin boosting again. Since I use skiffs, I rarely care about rats, however with the new capital rats, sometimes I need to send in daddy rorqual to rescue them from doom (and yes I can tank it just fine). My entire setup involves using the rorqual and its unique features and bonuses in the belt, with the major exception of boosting. That of course, takes up the majority of the time, but is only a single peice of the benefits of using a Rorq. And I have been diligent and careful enough to keep the same rorqual that I bought in 2013(?), and I've even used it dangerously in home defense and as bait when I'm really bored (autopilot across the region). Now to my point.

I'll gave you credit Fozzie, back when barges were being tiericded, you made the argument that having a defense fleet on constant standby was neither fun or interesting gameplay. I really do hope you see the connection here between having rapid defense and protecting another individuals personal income. It works well when the group is threatened (POSes, Sov, Structures), but it's an entirely different mindset when it comes to someone's ratting or mining. I hope we can understand that reality (and the fact that it's unlikely to change), and work to build mechanics that work with and around that, rather than simply frustrating everyone not involved in the loss. Team effort and work are definitely necessary, but things like mining don't typically compensate anyone (in terms of fun per hour or isk), which is unfortunately an issue with the mining design as a whole.

I'll hold my final opinion until I see the rorqual changes themselves, but I'm not holding much confidence right now.

I'm also somewhat worried about self-boosting on boosters and the upcoming changes to those ships. I'm worried that they will be balanced on the assumption that the links are fitted, and will be nerfed in tandem, thus making the module an almost required module to use the ship effectively.
FearlessLittleToaster
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#596 - 2016-08-30 17:02:55 UTC  |  Edited by: FearlessLittleToaster
KhanidLady wrote:

I am sure goons will manage to have defense fleets up. worked for your ratting carriers too.



FearlessLittleToaster wrote:

As a Goon that would actually be kinda nice for me personally, but crushing thousands of other miners in smaller outfits would be horrible overall. There is no way a hundred man mining corp could use Rorquals if they lived within a couple BLOPS jumps of a halfway decent lowsec outfit, let alone PL or Goons.


As I said in my post, we certainly will. But even though the change would actually benefit me personally I think it would be bad for Eve because it would flatten the smaller and less well organized groups.
Andrea Cemenotar
Elena Minasse Operations
#597 - 2016-08-30 17:10:02 UTC
btw I have just noticed one thing [speaking of miners and new system]

they say that all skills and implants that was providing passive boosts will be reworked to buff the command burst and will no longer provide fleetwide passive bonuses.

what about mining foreman 2% per skill level bonus to the mining yield?

what about mining foreman mindlink replacign that bonus with 15% yield bonus?

according to a blog it seems they will both now bosot strenght of the mining foreman bursts, but there is nothing to compensate for the lost yield.....

or did I missed something?
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#598 - 2016-08-30 17:10:49 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Arrendis wrote:

In small groups, you remove the force multipliers
....
Yes, they've applied their boosts... once. If they can't apply them again, then you've reduced the effectiveness of the rest of the fleet with that one kill.




You reduce the effectiveness of the fleet two minutes from now. That's a really long time in the small group fights you're talking about.


Yes it is - which is why, as I said, it's a fluid determination. Can you hold them for two minutes? Can you nail the booster and then stay our of their way for two minutes? Will popping the booster cause them to withdraw so as not to risk that 2-minute timer?

Did you pop him immediately after he boosted, or 60-90 seconds after? That comes into play, too.
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#599 - 2016-08-30 17:11:23 UTC
FearlessLittleToaster wrote:

If the above is how the Rorq is going to work going forward they will become the toys of only the biggest and best organized blocs. As a Goon that would actually be kinda nice for me personally, but crushing thousands of other miners in smaller outfits would be horrible overall. There is no way a hundred man mining corp could use Rorquals if they lived within a couple BLOPS jumps of a halfway decent lowsec outfit, let alone PL or Goons.


Why is that a bad thing? Smaller groups get Porpoise and Orcas. Larger groups field *capital* boosters. This idea that the smallest mining group should have the best boosts because the current state of the game allows everyone to have zero risk boosts is silly. It is exactly the scenario being fixed by this change. Your boost capabilities scale with your size or your risk level.
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#600 - 2016-08-30 17:16:48 UTC
Obil Que wrote:
FearlessLittleToaster wrote:

If the above is how the Rorq is going to work going forward they will become the toys of only the biggest and best organized blocs. As a Goon that would actually be kinda nice for me personally, but crushing thousands of other miners in smaller outfits would be horrible overall. There is no way a hundred man mining corp could use Rorquals if they lived within a couple BLOPS jumps of a halfway decent lowsec outfit, let alone PL or Goons.


Why is that a bad thing? Smaller groups get Porpoise and Orcas. Larger groups field *capital* boosters. This idea that the smallest mining group should have the best boosts because the current state of the game allows everyone to have zero risk boosts is silly. It is exactly the scenario being fixed by this change. Your boost capabilities scale with your size or your risk level.


'Smaller groups' meaning 2000-player alliances.

and:

Krystyn wrote:
I agree with a Goon...what is EVE coming to


It's almost like we're one of the groups of players who consistently and relentless theorycraft and game out how these changes are likely to actually affect gameplay *cough*Entosisceptors would never be a thing, right entire rest of EVE?*cough*