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The orbiter and the orbited- Angular Velocity
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Elenahina
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2016-08-28 22:44:23 UTC
Jessica Starblaze wrote:
Elenahina wrote:
Dirt Nooch wrote:
I actually just came across an eveuni article that states...

"is important to note that radial, transversal, and angular velocity are the same for both you and an object. For example, if you have a transversal velocity of 500 m/s with respect to another player's ship, then he also has a 500 m/s transversal velocity with respect to your ship."


Physics! Excitement!

As far as the formula is concerned, it doesn't matter which object is moving and which is stationary. The same is also true in the real world. It doesn't matter if you're stationary and your friend walks around you, or he's stationary and you walk around him. If you walk at the same speed on the same size circle, the angular velocity will be the same.


However if you attach a stick to your friend that points in your direction and he circles around you the stick (given that he does not change it´s alignment relative to himself) will keep pointing to you, which is where eve mechanics works differenty as the ships rotation does not automatically rotate the turret with it :).

So basically if you fly "North" and your turret points "west" and now you turn counter clock wise until your ship points "west" your turret will not turn with the ship it will keep pointing "west" -> which is the reason why no matter if you orbit or are the one who is sitting in the middle angular velocity affects your turrets the same way in both situations.

(Hope that is understandable, can not explain it any better in english ;) ).


Makes perfect sense to me.

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno
Dirt Nooch
State of Nature
#22 - 2016-08-28 22:46:13 UTC
Jessica Starblaze wrote:
Elenahina wrote:
Dirt Nooch wrote:
I actually just came across an eveuni article that states...

"is important to note that radial, transversal, and angular velocity are the same for both you and an object. For example, if you have a transversal velocity of 500 m/s with respect to another player's ship, then he also has a 500 m/s transversal velocity with respect to your ship."


Physics! Excitement!

As far as the formula is concerned, it doesn't matter which object is moving and which is stationary. The same is also true in the real world. It doesn't matter if you're stationary and your friend walks around you, or he's stationary and you walk around him. If you walk at the same speed on the same size circle, the angular velocity will be the same.


However if you attach a stick to your friend that points in your direction and he circles around you the stick (given that he does not change it´s alignment relative to himself) will keep pointing to you, which is where eve mechanics works differenty as the ships rotation does not automatically rotate the turret with it :).

So basically if you fly "North" and your turret points "west" and now you turn counter clock wise until your ship points "west" your turret will not turn with the ship it will keep pointing "west" -> which is the reason why no matter if you orbit or are the one who is sitting in the middle angular velocity affects your turrets the same way in both situations.

(Hope that is understandable, can not explain it any better in english ;) ).


Yes that makes sense, and that was why I was keen on some evidence or citation because as much as we can run the maths, eve is only an imitation of physics and might have *quirks* which can only be discovered through experimentation.
Serene Repose
#23 - 2016-08-28 23:48:13 UTC
It should also be noted when you have "five" guns, you have ten turrets - five on each side, so you don't have to shoot through your own ship....how convenient.

angular velocity

We must accommodate the idiocracy.
Dirt Nooch
State of Nature
#24 - 2016-08-28 23:52:11 UTC
Serene Repose wrote:
It should also be noted when you have "five" guns, you have ten turrets - five on each side, so you don't have to shoot through your own ship....how convenient.

angular velocity


You have a lot of patience, Sarcasm has a 24x training multiplier and I can see you're level V.
Soel Reit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2016-08-29 00:04:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Soel Reit
Dirt Nooch wrote:
Serene Repose wrote:
It should also be noted when you have "five" guns, you have ten turrets - five on each side, so you don't have to shoot through your own ship....how convenient.

angular velocity


You have a lot of patience, Sarcasm has a 24x training multiplier and I can see you're level V.


who need patience in 2k16? LuL
skill injectors ftw Cool
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#26 - 2016-08-29 02:18:04 UTC
Tracking does work that way: Same for both.

But I always thought that my ship should be able to automatically correct for its own motion. It would be a change to the game mechanics, but I think it would make more sense.

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Frozen fanfiction
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#27 - 2016-08-29 02:26:50 UTC
You got the answer with the first response. If you want evidence then go and test it yourself with a friend or an alt.
Serene Repose
#28 - 2016-08-29 03:22:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Serene Repose
It's a calculation that changes fluidly. Firstly, having something sit perfectly still in this game is a debatable notion. Secondly, having a ship orbit something that's supposedly sitting still is just as debatable in terms of possibility. Only with those two as factual will you have a constant set of variables upon which to calculate.

However, as was said, even if the items in question are moving at constantly varying speeds, and constantly changing trajectories, at any given instance the result of the calculation will be the same for each body in motion - in relation to one another. SO, if you ask "what is the angular velocity?" The answer has to be, "It depends."

Big smile

We must accommodate the idiocracy.
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
The Conference
#29 - 2016-08-29 05:57:23 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Dirt Nooch wrote:
d0cTeR9 wrote:


He is right.

Source: Me, playing since 2003.


How would you know, as in, unless you created test circumstances and compared the stats?

Because physics.

Angular velocity is a measure of the rate of change of angular displacement between 2 objects.

Mathematically, in 2 dimensions it is:

omega = v(sin theta) / r

So it can't be anything but equal.

However, if you can't wrap your head around the basic theory:

https://puu.sh/qRRvk/871b72dc73.jpg

One ship stationary. One ship orbiting.

Two ships. One angular.

More because "wrong physics". EVE is completely ignoring the change in of the velocity vector of the orbiting ship which changes this ships coordinate system in a way that the angular velocity of the orbited ship would indeed be zero.

Evil RatKid
Serene Repose
#30 - 2016-08-29 09:00:42 UTC
All the people who could crunch the numbers on this rage quit four years ago.
Don't look at me. I majored in oil painting.

We must accommodate the idiocracy.
Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
#31 - 2016-08-29 10:29:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Gimme Sake
EvE Physics.The universe is fluid and that's how tracking works when submerged. Tracking computers get flooded with the void of reason. Sometimes you find plankton; eat it, you'll need the proteins because you'll spend a lot of energy learning to shoot through the algaes.

"Never not blob!" ~ Plato
Dornier Pfeil
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#32 - 2016-09-04 21:47:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Dornier Pfeil
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
More because "wrong physics". EVE is completely ignoring the change in of the velocity vector of the orbiting ship which changes this ships coordinate system in a way that the angular velocity of the orbited ship would indeed be zero.


And this is so sad too. It's one thing to give up that real world physics has any relevance to a game for the sake of playability but when they have gone 90% of the way to being accurate and in this specific instance the additional math is to just add the 'slew' rate of the shooter's velocity vector with respect to the line to target to the tracking of the turrets it's indeed frustrating to know how close they were.
CCP's White Whale
Bagatur I
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#33 - 2016-09-05 10:41:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Bagatur I
from pure physics, or rather kinetics, point of view, whatever the situation is (webbed or not, both or just one, etc.), the relative velocities of one w/respect to the other and vice versa.
BuntCakez
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2016-09-05 15:50:03 UTC
Victoria Ewans wrote:
Try this simulator.

http://www.hostile.dk/files/eve/eve-tracking101.swf

On page 4/5 of that guide, there is a simulator for the transversal velocity wich can be easily transformed into angular velocity:

Angular velocity = Transversal velocity / distance between 2 ships

Try it.



This is one of the most awesome resources ive ever seen for explanation AND calculation ^^.
Blade Darth
Room for Improvement
Good Sax
#35 - 2016-09-05 16:15:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Blade Darth
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Two ships. One angular.
I saw that video now afraid to go into nullsec, brr...

It's the same, and, you can in fact "outtrack" yourself if moving too fast. Sometimes turning off prop mod or even sitting still like a derp (0ms elite pvp) is better for dps application.

Omen Navy Issue Tutorial
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2016-09-06 10:54:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Dornier Pfeil wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
More because "wrong physics". EVE is completely ignoring the change in of the velocity vector of the orbiting ship which changes this ships coordinate system in a way that the angular velocity of the orbited ship would indeed be zero.


And this is so sad too. It's one thing to give up that real world physics has any relevance to a game for the sake of playability but when they have gone 90% of the way to being accurate and in this specific instance the additional math is to just add the 'slew' rate of the shooter's velocity vector with respect to the line to target to the tracking of the turrets it's indeed frustrating to know how close they were.
CCP's White Whale

The sig radius of your weapon (size of the gun) has somehow been connected to tracking as well which makes no sense at all.

When you look into the physics its not 90% done its a lot less. Take for instance:

Explosion velocity of:

EM missiles (should be speed of light)
Thermal weapons (should be speed of light)
Kinetic weapons (speed of projectile + thermal)
Nuclear (Electromagnetic, X-ray, Gammy-ray..... speeed of light)
Explosion velocities in space are actually not that important.

Then theres the smaller the ship less damage it takes which is nonsense. Imagine exploding a balloon filled with paint at zero distance next to a small wall. Now explode the same balloon with paint next to a big wall . Just as much paint on both objects as long as the object exploding is smaller than the wall. EvE imagines the explosion appears at maximum size while disregarding to get to the maximum size it has to expand into and through the object.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Memphis Baas
#37 - 2016-09-06 12:07:35 UTC
EVE's math ignores spin, because ships are points.

See, normally, in order for your ship to orbit something, it has to continuously turn in order to achieve its circular flight path. In this particular scenario you would always observer the thing you're orbiting as being on your left (or right), thus no angular velocity.

However, EVE's math treats orbits like planetary orbits. The planet spins independently of its orbit. Earth is orbiting the Sun and we still observe the Sun rising and setting (angular velocity). As far as the EVE server is concerned, your ship manages to orbit another ship while always aligned "north." It would be strange to actually see in-game, like that, but that's the way it's calculated.

Thus, both ships have the same angular / transversal velocity, even if one is at 0 speed.
Keno Skir
#38 - 2016-09-07 00:34:26 UTC
I'm amazed this went so far past the first few posts.

Imagine a black square with a stationary white dot in the middle, and an identical white dot orbiting it. If you locked the view on the orbiting dot instead of the stationary one the image would look exactly the same but the other dot would be orbiting. I think that's about the simplest analogy i can throw up right now..

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Hallvardr
#39 - 2016-09-07 20:26:19 UTC
So, you're all saying that hull "A" is completely stationary with hull "B" target locked. As hull "B" orbits hull "A"'s guns are going to be "tracking" hull "B" at a given arc degrees/sec up to the limits of the turret, skills, etc.

Now, if hull "B" was always facing one direction (N let's say) while orbiting hull "A" I'd expect to see what everyone here is stating (arc degrees/sec will be the same for each hull). However, if hull "B" that has a target lock on hull "A" is rotating at a rate equal to its orbital velocity (ex: port side of hull will always be facing the stational hull "A") then its turrets will not have to move at all to keep trained on that target. However, hull "A" will at some point not be able to track target "B" if target "B" exceeds the arc degrees/sec speed of hull "A"s turrets.

Assuming that eve follows this observed physics and that hull "B" is orbiting on the flat galactic plane so that the hull is not snapping around to "stay flat" with respect to the galactic plane.

Now I see, understand and get the experiment and subsequent picture that Shae Tadaruwa posted so either I'm confusing tracking with the Angular/Transversal velocity you're all discussing.
Or
We're all saying the same thing and that EVE just doesn't model this aspect.
Memphis Baas
#40 - 2016-09-08 14:10:44 UTC
Your client shows you the ship flying realistically, in order to make the game pretty. The server, however, does NOT model the turning of the ship at all, and thus the math for guns, tracking, angular/transversal, hits, and damage will match what the server directs.

You can sometimes see proof of this with slow ships aligning for warp. The ship will reach the speed required for warp when the server calculates it, but the client may still be busy turning the ship the right way for your visual pleasure, so your ship will go into warp sideways. Because the server does not model ship orientation at all.
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