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EVE New Citizens Q&A

 
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Webifier problem
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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#21 - 2016-08-26 22:07:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
As a rough estimate, you never want to be closer than optimal range, because then you may have tracking issues.

Railguns are optimized for max range. They are low DPS, lower than all other turrets, at shorter ranges.

I actually recommend trying to stay between optimal + 1/4 falloff and optimal +1/2 falloff for best results. The difference is 1/4 falloff for maneuvring room! When in doubt, optimal + 1/4 falloff is always fine.

Compare with projectiles which have HUGE falloff and a shorter optimal. They are optimized for a much wider range, at the penalty of lower damage than rails at the far end of the range. They are always used in falloff.

Compare with lasers, which have a tiny falloff and long optimal. They are used within optimal range, but again, near the end of optimal. Not much room for maneuvering. Scorch ammo has such amazing long optimal that tracking isn't an issue at shorter ranges than optimal.
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2016-08-26 22:28:05 UTC
Helmin Tweed wrote:
Thanks for the advice. Been wanting to try missiles out so have been training those skills already. So many things to train and cant do them all at once. P

With the way skills train in this game you pretty much can train everything at once. I mean it only takes minutes to train level 1 of most skills. Sure some stuff takes a bit to train the skills to unlock it but when we are talking small racial ship and weapons skills those can all be trained to level 3 in almost no time.

I strongly recommend training up all 4 races ship and weapons skills to level 3 right off the bat then focusing on generic / support skills for a bit. This will give you a chance to try out all the different: ship, weapons, tank and piloting types / styles. It will even get you access to the pirate faction frigates.

None of this is written in stone hard rules but generally speaking, and staying just withing hybrid weapons, Galente ships tend to be better at blasters and the up close fighting style as well as armor tank and Caldari tend to be better at long range / railgun fighting styles and shield tanks. Just that one extra race opens up a fair amount of variety.

Add onto that the ability to try out lazors, projectiles and speed tank as well as fly the Astero and this gives you a great chance to try out a lot of different aspects of this game and find your own personal style.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#23 - 2016-08-26 22:37:11 UTC
It takes roughly 47 days to train all ships, turrets, missiles, and weapon support skills to level 3.

That also includes all navy, faction / pirate ships.

Of course, you will want additional skills to be competent, like armor tanking, shield tanking, drones, fitting ...
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2016-08-26 22:47:20 UTC
Memphis Baas wrote:
125mm Railgun tracks slightly better than 150, and will probably use less power grid allowing you to install 7 instead of 6. For slightly more total damage (and the better tracking). Also, instead of the straight up Tech 1 version, try to use the cheapest "meta" you can find (it will have better stats).

Damage Control, personally I'd replace that with a second magnetic field stabilizer, for more damage.

Forget about the Salvager; bookmark a wreck in each pocket, and come back later with full salvagers and tractors in all high slots. Put in a short range rocket launcher to deal with those webifier drones or whatever caused the problem in your first post. With the salvager gone, the cpu rig may even become unnecessary.

Shield tanks are meant to be over-sized, so try a Medium Clarity Ward booster, instead of a small.

I just want to back up what Memphis is saying here.

In PvE as a general rule you don't want to go with the biggest gun especially when it comes to longer range weapons and for a lot of reasons. Not the least of which is improved tracking. Tracking is a huge deal in this game and you don't want to get hung up on the damage numbers that you see in EFT. Certainly if you don't have the fitting skills to fill all of your turret hardpoints or are having to use fitting mods just to fit the larger guns you'll want to down size.

With regards to the extra low slot when you drop the DCU you might want to also try out a low slot tracking enhancer and see which works out for you. The TE will give you both better range and better tracking.

I also agree with dumping the salvager. If you try to fit a ship to do a little of everything it won't do any of it well. For a missioning ship you want to focus on a fit that completes the mission as quickly as possible and then come back to the bookmark and salvage in a ship set up to do that very well or just ignore the wrecks and burn through missions as quickly as possible.

I also want to second going up in meta from meta zero as meta zero are not dropped by NPCs and are used for the manufacture of T2 variants so typically cost significantly more than higher meta modules which are usually much better in every way.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli
Solecist Project
#25 - 2016-08-26 23:53:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Solecist Project
It's odd, because i can't confirm this at all.

Thrasher, cynabal and cane all 280s or 720s ...
... and I've tried 1200s vs 1400s and the only difference for me is RoF.

Though of course the 1400s deal more damage and have radditional range.

I never had tracking problems..


What are you guys talking about?

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2016-08-27 00:19:34 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
It's odd, because i can't confirm this at all.

Thrasher, cynabal and cane all 280s or 720s ...
... and I've tried 1200s vs 1400s and the only difference for me is RoF.

Though of course the 1400s deal more damage and have radditional range.

I never had tracking problems..


What are you guys talking about?

To me atty are probably the best example of this. I have fairly extensive experience with Atty on a Mael and some what medium atty on various medium platforms.

1400s have half the clip size and with the huge reload times of atties means you almost have to reload before you start shooting at any ship if there is even a question of if you might wind up having to reload during the kill. 10 seconds is enough time for an NPC to regen huge amounts of tank.

Also with the insane Alpha damage combined with equally insanely long cycle times means lots of overkill and overkill = wasted DPS. Some of this can be mitigated with ungrouping of weapons but having to click on 8 individual turrets can also add noticeable amounts of time to how long it takes to kill an NPC.

The tracking difference between 1400s and 1200s may not look like much on paper but from my experience it winds up being a huge difference in actual delivered damage unless you are shooting at a mission structure. I don't expect anyone to believe me on this. Try both out for yourself and have damage notifications up so you can see the difference in quality of hits.

My experiences with 720s versus 650s on medium ships were very similar.

As far as 1400s "dealing more damage" I think that is a misleading thing to say especially in the NC Q&A. Paper dps and actual landed DPS are confused enough as it is. The only DPS that really matters is the DPS that you land. EFT numbers mean nothing if you are missing half of your shots and getting glancing blows for most of the rest.

Bounty ticks running anoms is one of the best ways to determine actual landed DPS averages over time, at least that i have found. Using a stop watch on various NPCs can work but it is much less accurate and a lot more work. Just watching outgoing damage notifications and coming up with a general "feel" can be useful.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2016-08-27 00:22:19 UTC
Another note to the OP. Depending on the NPC and their programmed orbit range, there are times when running strait at the NPC can reduce transversal more than running away from them.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli
Solecist Project
#28 - 2016-08-27 00:30:30 UTC
ergherhdfgh wrote:
Solecist Project wrote:
It's odd, because i can't confirm this at all.

Thrasher, cynabal and cane all 280s or 720s ...
... and I've tried 1200s vs 1400s and the only difference for me is RoF.

Though of course the 1400s deal more damage and have radditional range.

I never had tracking problems..


What are you guys talking about?

To me atty are probably the best example of this. I have fairly extensive experience with Atty on a Mael and some what medium atty on various medium platforms.

1400s have half the clip size and with the huge reload times of atties means you almost have to reload before you start shooting at any ship if there is even a question of if you might wind up having to reload during the kill. 10 seconds is enough time for an NPC to regen huge amounts of tank.

Also with the insane Alpha damage combined with equally insanely long cycle times means lots of overkill and overkill = wasted DPS. Some of this can be mitigated with ungrouping of weapons but having to click on 8 individual turrets can also add noticeable amounts of time to how long it takes to kill an NPC.

The tracking difference between 1400s and 1200s may not look like much on paper but from my experience it winds up being a huge difference in actual delivered damage unless you are shooting at a mission structure. I don't expect anyone to believe me on this. Try both out for yourself and have damage notifications up so you can see the difference in quality of hits.

My experiences with 720s versus 650s on medium ships were very similar.

As far as 1400s "dealing more damage" I think that is a misleading thing to say especially in the NC Q&A. Paper dps and actual landed DPS are confused enough as it is. The only DPS that really matters is the DPS that you land. EFT numbers mean nothing if you are missing half of your shots and getting glancing blows for most of the rest.

Bounty ticks running anoms is one of the best ways to determine actual landed DPS averages over time, at least that i have found. Using a stop watch on various NPCs can work but it is much less accurate and a lot more work. Just watching outgoing damage notifications and coming up with a general "feel" can be useful.

You're flying the ship wrong.
I can assure you none of your problems are mine.

In missions you have to ungroup your artillery for best effect. They're seriously easy to follow, especially as long as you chainlock and just pick easy targets off with a single turret. Thanks to the range and speed it's easy not to get killed as well. I've used this approach successfully with thrashers, cynabals, lokis, hurricanes and tornados. Yes, no battleships.

Tracking issues can be solved by TC and TP and adapting range/tracking via ammo if necessary.
Agility, velocity and utility are more important than local tank.

Using a 280mm thrasher in a lvl3 might take a while, but it's fun!
Using a high rof 720mm faction turret to run other people's lvl4s faster than them is hilarious!

Using 1400s is a matter of locking and hovering the finger above the F-key.
Assigning turrets individually tomtargets is child's play and mere practise.

I should do this again...

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Nikea Tiber
Backwater Enterprises RD
#29 - 2016-08-27 08:00:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Nikea Tiber
Re: optimal, falloff, and how they relate to damage.
Not countimg grazing shots from high radial velocities, at optimal range your turrets will apply 100% of your paper dps. At optimal + falloff (simply listed as falloff in the tooltip), they can deal 50% of max damage. That means if your optimal is 20 km and falloff is listed as 40km in the tooltip, you will deal 100% dps at 20 km, 75% dps at 30 km, and 50% at 40 km. At 50 km, you will deal 25% damage, and zero at 60 km.

Radial velocity (which is critical to tracking) increases extremely quickly the closer a target orbits, so if you have to move to your falloff distance to apply damage, you might want to use longer range ammo.

Since this discussion is aimed at destroyers, and therefore small turrets i won't get into signature resolution.

If you are serious about using turrets, get motion prediction to level 4 asap, and to 5 as soon as you can really.

Implant slot 7 should always have a motion prediction hardwiring. As i recall, the 3% is fairly cheap.

Depending on the difference in velocity capabilities of the ships exchanging fire, and current distances involved, approach, or keep at distance will be more effective at reducing the radial speed of a target to where your turrets will hit, just be careful not to approach rats that are know to web.

With the range bonus of the cormorant, using a mwd or ab to quickly move to 25-30 km from the closest rats on a course that doesnt take you closer to any rats should reduce all incoming damage from frigates, as well as force aggressed rats to fly towards you with low transversal.

Maintain your distance, if you don't lock or approach mission rats, they may stay passive until you agress them.
Once you warp in, immediately plot a course to get you as far from the rats as quickly as possible. This might also be straight up or down. Target only what aggresses you, and focus on getting away from and returning fire on these rats.

It is rough at first, but once your skills train and you understand how to pilot to stay alive it gets a lot easier.

my other nano is a polycarb
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2016-08-27 10:57:45 UTC
Nikea Tiber wrote:
Re: optimal, falloff, and how they relate to damage.
Not countimg grazing shots from high radial velocities, at optimal range your turrets will apply 100% of your paper dps. At optimal + falloff (simply listed as falloff in the tooltip), they can deal 50% of max damage. That means if your optimal is 20 km and falloff is listed as 40km in the tooltip, you will deal 100% dps at 20 km, 75% dps at 30 km, and 50% at 40 km. At 50 km, you will deal 25% damage, and zero at 60 km.


I don't think this math is correct. There are turrets that have a lower number in falloff than in optimal so it's optimal + falloff = half damage distance. So in the above example at 60 Km ( 20 + 40 or optimal + falloff ) you would deal half damage.

Otherwise great post.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli
Nikea Tiber
Backwater Enterprises RD
#31 - 2016-08-28 20:57:40 UTC
The math is correct. The tooltip will list optimal range(as modified by the loaded charge type and hull bonuses), and optimal + falloff (listed as "accuracy falloff in the info window for the turret) as falloff range.
The new tooltips obfuscate what is going on under the hood. In my example i cited the numbers you would see if you mouseover an equipped turret; so 20 km optimal / 40 km falloff means the "accuracy falloff" distance is also 20 km. "Falloff range" as listed in the mouseover is optimal + ("accuracy")falloff, which is 50% the dps figure quoted in the same tooltip.

Sure, accuracy falloff can be shorter than optimal. The tooltip for mouseover will always add the two values together for what it reports for falloff range, though.

my other nano is a polycarb
Solecist Project
#32 - 2016-08-28 21:14:16 UTC
Nikea Tiber wrote:
The math is correct. The tooltip will list optimal range(as modified by the loaded charge type and hull bonuses), and optimal + falloff (listed as "accuracy falloff in the info window for the turret) as falloff range.
The new tooltips obfuscate what is going on under the hood. In my example i cited the numbers you would see if you mouseover an equipped turret; so 20 km optimal / 40 km falloff means the "accuracy falloff" distance is also 20 km. "Falloff range" as listed in the mouseover is optimal + ("accuracy")falloff, which is 50% the dps figure quoted in the same tooltip.

Sure, accuracy falloff can be shorter than optimal. The tooltip for mouseover will always add the two values together for what it reports for falloff range, though.

I hate this ...

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Nikea Tiber
Backwater Enterprises RD
#33 - 2016-08-28 23:20:13 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
Nikea Tiber wrote:
The math is correct. The tooltip will list optimal range(as modified by the loaded charge type and hull bonuses), and optimal + falloff (listed as "accuracy falloff in the info window for the turret) as falloff range.
The new tooltips obfuscate what is going on under the hood. In my example i cited the numbers you would see if you mouseover an equipped turret; so 20 km optimal / 40 km falloff means the "accuracy falloff" distance is also 20 km. "Falloff range" as listed in the mouseover is optimal + ("accuracy")falloff, which is 50% the dps figure quoted in the same tooltip.

Sure, accuracy falloff can be shorter than optimal. The tooltip for mouseover will always add the two values together for what it reports for falloff range, though.

I hate this ...



The changes to turret tooltips and attribute nomenclature are extremely counter-productive.

my other nano is a polycarb
Major Trant
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2016-09-01 11:22:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Major Trant
Nikea Tiber wrote:
Sure, accuracy falloff can be shorter than optimal. The tooltip for mouseover will always add the two values together for what it reports for falloff range, though.

This can be quite confusing because the various inferfaces are not consistent in their display of this data.

If you do a show info on a particular gun, it might say:

  • Optimal = 3000
  • Falloff = 5000

Which means that Optimal + Falloff = 8000

But when in space and you hover over the same module in your HUD, it will say

  • Optimal = 3000
  • Falloff = 8000

Because it has already added the two figures together in the Falloff parameter.
Solecist Project
#35 - 2016-09-01 11:27:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Solecist Project
Major Trant wrote:
Nikea Tiber wrote:
Sure, accuracy falloff can be shorter than optimal. The tooltip for mouseover will always add the two values together for what it reports for falloff range, though.

This can be quite confusing because the various inferfaces are not consistent in their display of this data.

If you do a show info on a particular gun, it might say:

  • Optimal = 3000
  • Falloff = 5000

Which means that Optimal + Falloff = 8000

But when in space and you hover over the same module in your HUD, it will say

  • Optimal = 3000
  • Falloff = 8000

Because it has already added the two figures together in the Falloff parameter.

Did i mention that this was a totally useless change that actually added confusion more than anything?

Oh no, i didn't yet.

But i mentioned that i hate it.

Oh, yes, i ******* hate it.

So ******* much!

Time to do something about it, i guess.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Solecist Project
#36 - 2016-09-01 13:05:31 UTC
I made a thread about it.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6618547#post6618547

Add some voice to it.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
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