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Webifier problem

Author
Helmin Tweed
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1 - 2016-08-26 16:34:35 UTC
I am only 1 month into the game so this probably has an easy answer but here goes anyway Big smile

I am flying a Cormorant with 150mm railguns and antimatter ammo. Just doing lvl2 missions. Every now and then i hit a mission where the rats have webifiers and slow me down and orbit me at 1000m or less and i cant hit them. I warp out and come back to kite them. What do I need to do to kill them while slowed down? Have a shorter range weapon installed, different ammo?

Thanks
Solecist Project
#2 - 2016-08-26 16:50:17 UTC
Move away from the asap?
Fit an afterburner or a microwarpdrive.

You could fit webs yourself, too.

Or switch to blasters.

But in general, you're using a ship for long range with long range weapons.

What do you think, should you be close?

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia

Memphis Baas
#3 - 2016-08-26 17:03:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Memphis Baas
Rail guns are the long range sub-type of hybrid weapon. Blasters are the short range. For other races, the equivalents are artillery and autocannons, beam lasers and pulse lasers.

In any case, when you fit a ship, you're supposed to decide long vs. short range, and then fit all sorts of support modules so that you can maneuver that ship or control each fight so that the enemy is in perfect range for your guns. Typically this involves fitting afterburners, webifiers, etc., in addition to the guns.

Destroyers were not originally intended for PVE exactly. It's a frigate with more guns, but less defense (frigates rely on agility and small size for defense, destroyer is bigger and slower). The destroyer functions very well as an anti-frigate glass cannon. Kill them before they can even get close.

Unfortunately, PVE fights are very long affairs, with possible multiple waves coming in that you have to have the endurance to sit there and kill.

So, you could fit blasters on your destroyer, but getting in close means you'll have to take a lot of damage, so, again it kinda goes against the philosophy of the destroyer. Or, you could downgrade to a blaster frigate, fewer weapons but better survivability, because small size, fast afterburner speeds, and a minimal shield booster or armor repairer will let you last forever in wave after wave of PVE.

Or upgrade to a cruiser, where it's no longer about speed and agility, but about installing a proper shield or armor tank on the ship, in addition to the guns and propulsion module.
Helmin Tweed
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4 - 2016-08-26 17:04:36 UTC
I try to keep them at range but stuff happens and sometimes they get close. Using an afterburner but doesnt get me away so am going to try a microwarp drive. maybe the spped boost will help to slingshot me away. Want to figure out a way to get range back thats all.
Memphis Baas
#5 - 2016-08-26 17:08:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Memphis Baas
MWD is an oh-crap module, gives you nice speed but drains you dry in about 10 seconds. Also, it has high fitting requirements, which means you may have to get rid of some of the rails to install it. Might not work for PVE.

EDIT: NPC's are pre-programmed to MWD to you then orbit you at whatever close range they prefer to have. Short range ships work better than kiting, for PVE. But mostly, people just use missiles or drones, because you get equal effectiveness at all ranges, and as a bonus you can pick the type of damage that your missile or drone does, to impact the NPC's defense weaknesses.

EDIT2: Rails (long range) with antimatter ammo (shortened range) is "missing the point" a little bit.
Memphis Baas
#6 - 2016-08-26 17:14:23 UTC
Don't band-aid your tool, use a different tool. If you absolutely are set on destroyers, use the missiles one. Takes a couple hours to train light missile launcher.
Helmin Tweed
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#7 - 2016-08-26 17:19:55 UTC
Thanks for the advice. Been wanting to try missiles out so have been training those skills already. So many things to train and cant do them all at once. P
Pandora Carrollon
Provi Rapid Response
#8 - 2016-08-26 17:28:17 UTC
You're given good advice but I can help you with something else as I was actually a heavy rail user myself. I know exactly of what you speak.

Sites are far easier to run on rails than missions. Missions you frequently don't get a choice where you drop in. If you want to say on rails and do missions, you need to IMMEDIATELY align to either the entry gate that launched you there, or some other direction away from the targets and hit afterburner. Dump the MWD, those are the surest way to get your destroyer plastered by larger ships as they increase your signature size 500%. Go AB for a mission runner.

Mission ships usually take a few seconds to react to you so if you start moving away from them ASAP you'll get enough range to take them down before they can zoom in on you and get in under your rails.

Now, if you can keep them at 5,000 then antimatter will take them down nicely, just keep burning away from them as they cannot 'orbit' you at that point and they are in a tail chase, which means they have little to no relative motion from you and that means your turrets will happily track them and reduce them to dust bunnies.

You can switch to blasters, as has been stated, but you do need to fit an effective regenerating tank which I think is shield on a Cormorant. That will kill your capacitor and you will need to fit some kind of capacitor regen systems which also tend to fill mid slots, (but there are some low ones too) thus it's not a great fit on shield ships. Armor destroyers tend to do better with this combination than shield ones which is why Memphis is directing you to missiles.

Gallente ships do about the best with the hybrid turrets. Caldari are more missile focused... but that's just in general terms. You can always find some ship in a race to do what you like to do relatively okay, but it may not be the best one at it.

Memphis is also right about moving up to a cruiser. You lose a little speed but get A LOT more power. Destroyers are really frigate killers. They can kill NPC Cruisers and even take on NPC battlecruisers if they are fit and flown properly. They don't have enough dps to kill an NPC battleship with regen abilities.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#9 - 2016-08-26 17:28:27 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Memphis Baas wrote:
Rails (long range) with antimatter ammo (shortened range) is "missing the point" a little bit.

I think this is the biggest issue.

Antimatter ammo cuts the range of your guns by 50%. This means you have to get closer to a target to deal damage... which means that you will have more problems tracking targets (due to Railguns being a "long range" weapon).

I would suggest switching to Lead ammo as it does not affect your weapon's range and has the added bonus of cutting capacitor consumption by 50%.
The tradeoff is that it will deal half as much damage as Antimatter does.

With Lead ammo, you will be able to engage hostile sooner and at greater ranges.

However, keep a small stash of Antimatter ammo in your cargohold. There will be NPCs that will be tougher than the rest and you may need the extra damage to finish them off (after you have killed everything else of course).


Also... what is your fit OP? It may be that your fit is not exactly optimal and could use some "refining." Blink
Helmin Tweed
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#10 - 2016-08-26 17:51:28 UTC
[Cormorant, cormorant2]
Damage Control I
Vortex Compact Magnetic Field Stabilizer

Small Clarity Ward Booster I
1MN Y-S8 Compact Afterburner
Upgraded Thermal Dissipation Amplifier I

150mm Railgun I, Antimatter Charge S
150mm Railgun I, Antimatter Charge S
150mm Railgun I, Antimatter Charge S
150mm Railgun I, Antimatter Charge S
150mm Railgun I, Antimatter Charge S
150mm Railgun I, Antimatter Charge S
Salvager I
[empty high slot]

Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Small Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer I
Small Processor Overclocking Unit I



Memphis Baas
#11 - 2016-08-26 18:09:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Memphis Baas
125mm Railgun tracks slightly better than 150, and will probably use less power grid allowing you to install 7 instead of 6. For slightly more total damage (and the better tracking). Also, instead of the straight up Tech 1 version, try to use the cheapest "meta" you can find (it will have better stats).

Damage Control, personally I'd replace that with a second magnetic field stabilizer, for more damage.

Forget about the Salvager; bookmark a wreck in each pocket, and come back later with full salvagers and tractors in all high slots. Put in a short range rocket launcher to deal with those webifier drones or whatever caused the problem in your first post. With the salvager gone, the cpu rig may even become unnecessary.

Shield tanks are meant to be over-sized, so try a Medium Clarity Ward booster, instead of a small.
Helmin Tweed
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#12 - 2016-08-26 18:29:56 UTC
thank you very much. I will give this a try.

[Cormorant, cormorant3]
Vortex Compact Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Vortex Compact Magnetic Field Stabilizer

1MN Y-S8 Compact Afterburner
Upgraded Thermal Dissipation Amplifier I
Medium Clarity Ward Booster I

125mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Lead Charge S
125mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Lead Charge S
125mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Lead Charge S
125mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Lead Charge S
125mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Lead Charge S
125mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Lead Charge S
125mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Lead Charge S
Rocket Launcher I, Scourge Rocket

Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Small Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer I
[empty rig slot]

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#13 - 2016-08-26 18:32:17 UTC
I will echo Memphis' comment on the guns.

125s would be a better choice as they do not consume as much CPU and Powergrid (allowing you to fit more and better stuff in other slots).

Loaded with Lead ammo... you should be able to engage things from ~15 km away.
Helmin Tweed
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#14 - 2016-08-26 18:36:29 UTC
with the antimatter my max was 20 km. will see once i get it put together what range the lead gives me
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#15 - 2016-08-26 18:39:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
You should be able to kite with an afterburner. You are probably gonna do nearly 600 m/s - 1000 m/s (wild guess).

My Raven (slow battleship) can kite with an afterburner all but fast Angels in level 4 missions.

Don't wait until you are in a bad spot. Keep moving from the moment you enter the room. Anything that can web you is a priority target; try to kill them before they reach web range. Shoot at the fastest targets otherwise.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#16 - 2016-08-26 18:44:18 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Helmin Tweed wrote:
with the antimatter my max was 20 km. will see once i get it put together what range the lead gives me

Oooooooo... I see the problem.

Okay... so... you have 2 ranges on all turrets: Optimal and Falloff.

Optimal range is where you can potentially deal full damage to a target.

Falloff range starts at the end of optimal range. The thing about Falloff is that the further into Falloff range you are, the less damage you will deal. Once you are at the end of Falloff range, you will be dealing little to no damage.


The "sweet spot" you are trying to aim for is between the edge of optimal range and 50% into falloff range.

The reason you want to be at this place is because it offers the best "damage-to-application" ratio.
In other words; you should be far enough away that you can track a target (see: application) and close enough to be dealing a decent amount of damage.


Looking at a 150mm Railgun loaded with Antimatter, your Optimal is ~15 to 17 km. Falloff range is an extra ~5 to 7 km on top of that.
So you would want to be between 15 to 18 kms away from a target you are shooting.

With 125mm Railguns loaded with Lead ammo... well... you want to hover around 15 kms as well. More if your skills are good (check the weapon stats when fitted to your ship!)
Helmin Tweed
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#17 - 2016-08-26 18:50:51 UTC
with the 150mm railgun and lead ammo my falloff range is 33km and optimal is 26km. so I want to be 26-30 km away at all times
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#18 - 2016-08-26 18:52:51 UTC
Helmin Tweed wrote:
with the 150mm railgun and lead ammo my falloff range is 33km and optimal is 26km. so I want to be 26-30 km away at all times

23 to 28 actually. You don't want to go too deep into falloff (due to damage penalties). Blink
Helmin Tweed
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#19 - 2016-08-26 19:00:49 UTC
thanks very helpful
Demolishar
United Aggression
#20 - 2016-08-26 20:03:06 UTC
This thread is adorable.
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