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I've said it before...Increasing New Player Interest.
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Valacus
Streets of Fire
#61 - 2016-08-26 15:51:38 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Valacus wrote:
Soel Reit wrote:
Valacus wrote:
Most people have no interest in paying for 3 accounts in order to get the full EVE experience.


you are being greedy here!
why should you want a 100% EVE experience when the game is built to play only some specific roles for each account, thus the teamwork, thus the friends, thus the fun?

people are the problem: they want the 100% and can't think of a 20% part. you only need 5 people to get the 100%!
teamwork!

for example i have only this account! for now Cool


"Teamwork". Lul. "Teamwork" in EVE is blobbing. Having 3 accounts have nothing to do with teamwork. If you want to build ships you need a new account. If you want to PvP in blobs you need a new account. If you want to fly capital ships, you need a new account. In other games, all I need is a new character to do any of those things. Not a whole new freakin' account. You need a new account just to be able to participate in both empire and nulsec spaces, since getting between the two can be rage inducing. High sec gates, and the surrounding gates to them, are the best gates to camp. What it takes 3 accounts to do in EVE only takes 1 account to do in other MMOs. That's a losing model. CCP advertises that you can do industry AND PvP AND fly carriers AND do all these other fun things in EVE because EVE is huuuuuuuuuuuge and great! What they don't tell you is that you can really only do one unless you want... wait for it... to pay for multiple accounts. I'd be ecstatic if more people played EVE, but I understand why they don't. If I didn't already have all the high SP set ups and long term investments that let me do what I can do now, I probably wouldn't want to play EVE either.
'

If you don't like the way a company you buy from does business, stop buying from them. It's not hard.


Hurr hurr. Ur so smrt. I mean, why make a game better when you can just tell other people to leave? Amirite? Screw having new players and more people to have fun with and all that crap. Us vets r all we need.
Soel Reit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2016-08-26 15:56:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Soel Reit
Valacus wrote:
Soel Reit wrote:
Valacus wrote:
Most people have no interest in paying for 3 accounts in order to get the full EVE experience.


you are being greedy here!
why should you want a 100% EVE experience when the game is built to play only some specific roles for each account, thus the teamwork, thus the friends, thus the fun?

people are the problem: they want the 100% and can't think of a 20% part. you only need 5 people to get the 100%!
teamwork!

for example i have only this account! for now Cool


"Teamwork". Lul. "Teamwork" in EVE is blobbing. Having 3 accounts have nothing to do with teamwork. If you want to build ships you need a new account. If you want to PvP in blobs you need a new account. If you want to fly capital ships, you need a new account. In other games, all I need is a new character to do any of those things. Not a whole new freakin' account. You need a new account just to be able to participate in both empire and nulsec spaces, since getting between the two can be rage inducing. High sec gates, and the surrounding gates to them, are the best gates to camp. What it takes 3 accounts to do in EVE only takes 1 account to do in other MMOs. That's a losing model. CCP advertises that you can do industry AND PvP AND fly carriers AND do all these other fun things in EVE because EVE is huuuuuuuuuuuge and great! What they don't tell you is that you can really only do one unless you want... wait for it... to pay for multiple accounts. I'd be ecstatic if more people played EVE, but I understand why they don't. If I didn't already have all the high SP set ups and long term investments that let me do what I can do now, I probably wouldn't want to play EVE either.


it's not blobbing.
imagine a corp where:
- someone mine
- another one use that ore to build ships
- another one again fly those ships and fight to protect the miners/builders
that's teamwork.

you can indeed do anything you want in eve! but you have to choose a career!
are you greedy and want mining/Pvping/building all at the same time?
create another account or buy skills injectors or simply wait... what we all need is patience.
but nowdays it's not so affordable Ugh people want anything right now, without having to wait.

i appreciate eve becouse it requires patience and a good plan in the first place.

Valacus wrote:
If I didn't already have all the high SP set ups and long term investments that let me do what I can do now, I probably wouldn't want to play EVE either.


then why did you set them up in the first place??? LUL
you're making no sense

404 no sense found LUL
Lunarstorm95
Godless Horizon.
OnlyFleets.
#63 - 2016-08-26 16:39:55 UTC
Toobo wrote:
I have an idea.

Start all new characters from NPC null. Maket eve as a survival game, where surviving and persisting are the central themes.

Let it be hard, pretty damn hard, for the new players to work their way through null and low to reach high sec. They will need to learn to navigate, study local, plan ahead, train up skills to fly cloakies if that helps. Let it take at least a month for an average new player to reach high sec without help.

When they arrive at high sec, their first visit to Jita, mission hubs, let it be a wonderous experience. They may live in the highsec bliss, but they got there through surviving and persisting - they've earned it, they may enjoy it, or maybe they want to go back to low and null, where it was so hard before, but now they are better equipped and better skilled and more knowledgeable.

I subbed into eve from trial account because it was hard and I had ***** blown up and got my ass kicked and podded and lost real SP and the nice styuffs seemed so far away and hard to reach - that made me sub, because it was clear trial period wasn't long enough to experience all that can be enjoyed in this crazy space.

Think about it -

A) player starts in high sec, does tutorials and a few missions and mines and wow cool I'm gonna sub man! Scenario...

vs.

B) player got his ass kicked so many tims it's not even funny, but he persisted and made it to high sec, and oh **** my trial runs out in a day but I've just got here! Let me reach for that credit card... and then a month later, 'hey I can fly this cool **** now', I wonder if I would fare better in low/null now, oh sub running out, ok credit card gogo!

What do you think is more likely?


Very interesting approach. I like what you are getting at, maybe a few tweaks but like I said above people have a hard time grasping the full sandbox as a new player, This would be a great way to slap them in the face with it, and such the type of people who would enjoy eve would love it. Love in a hateful sort of way.

“You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.” ― Robert A. Heinlein "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." ― Confucius 
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#64 - 2016-08-26 18:46:40 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:


No bad.

The thing is, what you are talking about already exists in sites maintained by players. Even after 9 years of playing I sometimes consult EVE-Unis site for an idea or clarification. Some have been saying "bring it in game" for all of EVE's life (9 years ago I was one of them, briefly), but I think many will agree that the players are better at that sort of thing and it's best CCP gets to concentrate on what they are actually good at.

This is why we have EFT and Pyfa from player sources whereas CCP struggles to introduce Ghost Fitting within the game itself. This is why we have EVE-Uni and Brave and Dreddit and Karma fleet and CAS while CCP itself struggles to figure out what to do with the NPE and Opportunities.

Many people over-estimate what CCP is capable of , which leads to frustration when it seems like they aren't moving fast enough. You'll be better off organizing some kind of new external resource than waiting for CCP to totally retool itself into the kind of company that can deliver what you think should happen.


You are describing what Elinor and Vincent Ostrom call polycentric view or process. Polycentric meaning many decision making centers. Polycentric often succeeds where monocentric fails (although not always). Polycentric basically takes a trial and error process often all at the same time whereas monocentric tries one thing at a time. So, it is not surprising CCP struggles relative to many others trying to do similar things. One process can have dozens or even hundreds of people looking for a "solution" whereas CCP is much more limited. A simple way of thinking about it is one size fits all vs. letting people select from many different sizes.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#65 - 2016-08-26 18:51:06 UTC
Valacus wrote:
Serene Repose wrote:
High sec: 1090
Low sec: 817
0.0: 3524 (of which 230 are not connected)
W-space: 2499

High sec + Low sec = Empire: 1907
Empire + 0.0 = K-space: 5431
K-space + W-space = Total: 7930

Believe me. Most of EVE is jump gate after jump gate after jump gate.
Solo exploring the map is hours and hours of mind-numbing boredom
periodically interrupted by moments of sheer terror.


Terror? Oh please. It's not terrifying to be ganked by an unescapable gate camp. It's just infuriating. The entire "exploration" experience is infuriating. The problem with EVE is the player experience required to retain new players, and that experience is bad more often than not. EVE is a game designed to prey on the weak and the new. It does a great job of it. And when you're new, you don't have any friends to back you up or help you out, so you just turn the game off, uninstall it for HD space and get on with your life.


No, I'll gladly shoot any player in game, old, new, smart, stupid, I have no preference. Granted, being an "older player" it will likely appear I go after "newer" players.

Sometimes what you see is not what is going on or not all of what is going on.

Might I suggest reading Frederic Bastiat?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#66 - 2016-08-26 18:53:41 UTC
Valacus wrote:
Soel Reit wrote:
Valacus wrote:
And when you're new, you don't have any friends to back you up or help you out, so you just turn the game off, uninstall it for HD space and get on with your life.


?? friends are out there, and they are recruiting Big smile

dreddit, karma fleet, PH, Brave are recruiting, just to name some that welcome newbies...


First impressions on any game make or break it. The amount you can accomplish in EVE by yourself is abysmal, and most new players start off alone. Those critical few days where they're getting their bearings rarely involve a corp, and since you can scam the hell out of people in EVE, finding a corp when you don't know what you're doing can actually make the problem worse. Most other games give you some solo options. EVE players all have multiple accounts just to be able to function, yours truly included. That's not a great model for growth. Trying to get my friends into this game is a losing battle. Most people have no interest in paying for 3 accounts in order to get the full EVE experience.


Thing is with these complaints is that for years Eve grew and the NPE was not that great and yes, we started off alone. And the issue is not just new players, but retaining the existing players. Your narrative just does not fit well with history or what is going on.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#67 - 2016-08-26 19:00:28 UTC
Valacus wrote:
Soel Reit wrote:
Valacus wrote:
Most people have no interest in paying for 3 accounts in order to get the full EVE experience.


you are being greedy here!
why should you want a 100% EVE experience when the game is built to play only some specific roles for each account, thus the teamwork, thus the friends, thus the fun?

people are the problem: they want the 100% and can't think of a 20% part. you only need 5 people to get the 100%!
teamwork!

for example i have only this account! for now Cool


"Teamwork". Lul. "Teamwork" in EVE is blobbing. Having 3 accounts have nothing to do with teamwork. If you want to build ships you need a new account. If you want to PvP in blobs you need a new account. If you want to fly capital ships, you need a new account. In other games, all I need is a new character to do any of those things. Not a whole new freakin' account. You need a new account just to be able to participate in both empire and nulsec spaces, since getting between the two can be rage inducing. High sec gates, and the surrounding gates to them, are the best gates to camp. What it takes 3 accounts to do in EVE only takes 1 account to do in other MMOs. That's a losing model. CCP advertises that you can do industry AND PvP AND fly carriers AND do all these other fun things in EVE because EVE is huuuuuuuuuuuge and great! What they don't tell you is that you can really only do one unless you want... wait for it... to pay for multiple accounts. I'd be ecstatic if more people played EVE, but I understand why they don't. If I didn't already have all the high SP set ups and long term investments that let me do what I can do now, I probably wouldn't want to play EVE either.


Yes, it is called game balance. If you want one account and you want to PvP and build ships, and so forth all right away you'll need to have multiple accounts. Or you have to wait and train through each of those "careers" in the order you most prefer.

And a question for you....why did you stay and have multiple accounts if it is so awful? By your own admission you should never have gotten where you are. How do you explain this?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#68 - 2016-08-26 19:07:32 UTC
Valacus wrote:

Hurr hurr. Ur so smrt. I mean, why make a game better when you can just tell other people to leave? Amirite? Screw having new players and more people to have fun with and all that crap. Us vets r all we need.


I know I'm smart, because I know businesses exist to make money and having you use multiple accounts is a money maker for CCP. I don't mind, so I use multiple accounts. You on the other hand do mind, but you STILL give CCP money even though the structure of the business deal they are offering you offends you.

Many many companies exist only because people like you exist, people who are willing to complain but not willing to stop buying. People like that only have themselves to blame for any lack of quality from a business...because you keep paying them to do what you don't like while magically thinking it's going to change.

Wise up.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#69 - 2016-08-26 19:10:01 UTC
Soel Reit wrote:


it's not blobbing.
imagine a corp where:
- someone mine
- another one use that ore to build ships
- another one again fly those ships and fight to protect the miners/builders
that's teamwork.

you can indeed do anything you want in eve! but you have to choose a career!
are you greedy and want mining/Pvping/building all at the same time?
create another account or buy skills injectors or simply wait... what we all need is patience.
but nowdays it's not so affordable Ugh people want anything right now, without having to wait.

i appreciate eve becouse it requires patience and a good plan in the first place.

Valacus wrote:
If I didn't already have all the high SP set ups and long term investments that let me do what I can do now, I probably wouldn't want to play EVE either.


then why did you set them up in the first place??? LUL
you're making no sense

404 no sense found LUL


And with Eve's market you can get the benefits of team work without have to form an explicit team. If I run anomalies and pile up ISK I can essentially buy:

The guy who mines.
The guy who builds ships.
The guy who invents and builds the T2 modules.

Anonymous exchange and specialization allows people to be more productive. Both in game and IRL. Think about it, you are probably highly specialized. If we took you and said, "No more anonymous exchange for you," there is a pretty high probability you'd die. Can you grow crops? Raise a cow or pig? Chickens? Cut down trees to make a barn? Can you make a barn or even a crude structure to house your chickens and protect them from the elements and predators? How about clothing? Do you even know where to start in making a shirt? And how about hunting? Can you hunt, gut your kill, skin it, preserve the meat? I bet you can't do any of those things, and that is true for most of us. But anonymous exchange lets us specialize to a tremendous degree and be amazingly better off.

This is true in game. The guy who says, "I think I want to do industry" will be far, far better at it a few months in game than the guy saying, "I want to do PvP." Do you know who you buy stuff from in game? I'd be willing to bet you never look. I know I don't. I don't care who I buy from, what I care about is they have what I need and are willing to sell it to me.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#70 - 2016-08-26 19:13:08 UTC
Valacus wrote:


Hurr hurr. Ur so smrt. I mean, why make a game better when you can just tell other people to leave? Amirite? Screw having new players and more people to have fun with and all that crap. Us vets r all we need.


The problem is that the things you are complaining about have always been with the game...and yet it grew...for a long time. Why is it now not growing? Because of the things that have always been part of the game?

I mean...maybe you are right, but it sounds unlikely.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Solecist Project
#71 - 2016-08-26 19:16:33 UTC
this page is full of nonsense...

and why the hell would anyone need a new account for a new activity?
just skill the damn thing on the same account!

wtf...

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Solecist Project
#72 - 2016-08-26 19:18:06 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Valacus wrote:

Hurr hurr. Ur so smrt. I mean, why make a game better when you can just tell other people to leave? Amirite? Screw having new players and more people to have fun with and all that crap. Us vets r all we need.


I know I'm smart, because I know businesses exist to make money and having you use multiple accounts is a money maker for CCP. I don't mind, so I use multiple accounts. You on the other hand do mind, but you STILL give CCP money even though the structure of the business deal they are offering you offends you.

Many many companies exist only because people like you exist, people who are willing to complain but not willing to stop buying. People like that only have themselves to blame for any lack of quality from a business...because you keep paying them to do what you don't like while magically thinking it's going to change.

Wise up.

Insanity in person.

Not you. Him. :P

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Soel Reit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2016-08-26 19:20:58 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Soel Reit wrote:


it's not blobbing.
imagine a corp where:
- someone mine
- another one use that ore to build ships
- another one again fly those ships and fight to protect the miners/builders
that's teamwork.

you can indeed do anything you want in eve! but you have to choose a career!
are you greedy and want mining/Pvping/building all at the same time?
create another account or buy skills injectors or simply wait... what we all need is patience.
but nowdays it's not so affordable Ugh people want anything right now, without having to wait.

i appreciate eve becouse it requires patience and a good plan in the first place.

Valacus wrote:
If I didn't already have all the high SP set ups and long term investments that let me do what I can do now, I probably wouldn't want to play EVE either.


then why did you set them up in the first place??? LUL
you're making no sense

404 no sense found LUL


And with Eve's market you can get the benefits of team work without have to form an explicit team. If I run anomalies and pile up ISK I can essentially buy:

The guy who mines.
The guy who builds ships.
The guy who invents and builds the T2 modules.

Anonymous exchange and specialization allows people to be more productive. Both in game and IRL. Think about it, you are probably highly specialized. If we took you and said, "No more anonymous exchange for you," there is a pretty high probability you'd die. Can you grow crops? Raise a cow or pig? Chickens? Cut down trees to make a barn? Can you make a barn or even a crude structure to house your chickens and protect them from the elements and predators? How about clothing? Do you even know where to start in making a shirt? And how about hunting? Can you hunt, gut your kill, skin it, preserve the meat? I bet you can't do any of those things, and that is true for most of us. But anonymous exchange lets us specialize to a tremendous degree and be amazingly better off.

This is true in game. The guy who says, "I think I want to do industry" will be far, far better at it a few months in game than the guy saying, "I want to do PvP." Do you know who you buy stuff from in game? I'd be willing to bet you never look. I know I don't. I don't care who I buy from, what I care about is they have what I need and are willing to sell it to me.


yea! finally someone that understand :D