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Ideas for EVE 2.0
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Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2016-08-25 09:30:32 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Carebears are what pay for EvE. Killing them is counter-productive because a killed carebear is likely to leave and a carebear not paying for a sub is less money for EvE.


CCP looked into this.

They found that 85% of people who leave the game in the first 15 days do so without ever engaging in pvp. They also found people who have been killed are more likely to stay with the game.

That has nothing to do with the people who leave after the first 15 days. People who run missions, fly freighters, can afford a bit of bling to fit on their ship are not doing that in the first 15 days, they're the ones who get ganked not newbs.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#42 - 2016-08-25 09:44:07 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

That has nothing to do with the people who leave after the first 15 days. People who run missions, fly freighters, can afford a bit of bling to fit on their ship are not doing that in the first 15 days, they're the ones who get ganked not newbs.


Got any evidence to back that statement up?
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#43 - 2016-08-25 09:55:06 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

That has nothing to do with the people who leave after the first 15 days. People who run missions, fly freighters, can afford a bit of bling to fit on their ship are not doing that in the first 15 days, they're the ones who get ganked not newbs.


Got any evidence to back that statement up?

Its pretty self evident isn't it. Can the average 15 day old fly a freighter, can the average 15 day old afford to buy and fit a mission ship that's worth ganking, can a 15 day make enough in 15 days to bling their ship to make it worth ganking.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#44 - 2016-08-25 10:11:41 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

That has nothing to do with the people who leave after the first 15 days. People who run missions, fly freighters, can afford a bit of bling to fit on their ship are not doing that in the first 15 days, they're the ones who get ganked not newbs.


Got any evidence to back that statement up?

Its pretty self evident isn't it. Can the average 15 day old fly a freighter, can the average 15 day old afford to buy and fit a mission ship that's worth ganking, can a 15 day make enough in 15 days to bling their ship to make it worth ganking.


So no evidence.

As a side note, EVE was growing at its fastest rate back when ganking was a lot cheaper and easier to do.
Lan Wang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2016-08-25 10:39:39 UTC
sounds really grindy and boring, i hate games where i lose stuff if a take a break

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2016-08-25 11:11:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

That has nothing to do with the people who leave after the first 15 days. People who run missions, fly freighters, can afford a bit of bling to fit on their ship are not doing that in the first 15 days, they're the ones who get ganked not newbs.


Got any evidence to back that statement up?

Its pretty self evident isn't it. Can the average 15 day old fly a freighter, can the average 15 day old afford to buy and fit a mission ship that's worth ganking, can a 15 day make enough in 15 days to bling their ship to make it worth ganking.


So no evidence.

As a side note, EVE was growing at its fastest rate back when ganking was a lot cheaper and easier to do.

Well I could trawl through your lame ganking record and post the average age of the person if you like but we both know already what the results would be....

Lets See:

On your last ganking day in highsec you helped kill 14 freighters and 2 orcas:

13 of the freighters were empty showing exactly how cheap and without penalty it really is:
Only 1 freighter was carrying a substantial cargo, 6 billion isk.
The orca's were empty.

ZERO pilots were under 15 days old, all were at least 1 year old.

caiyleigh - freighter - 2010
Sarah Stryker - freighter - 2014
The BlackWolf Goldbull - freighter - 2014
NIiahozor - freighter - 2009
Louisa Torres - freighter - 2003
xxxCharmxxx - freighter - 2011
Theodore Eto - dessie - 2014
Jamato spaceship - freighter - 2014
Miya Trump - freighter - 2011
Jala Trump - freighter - 2011
Lora601 Houssa - freighter - 2011
See Deez Nutz - freighter - 2012
Pulemanden - Orca - 2010
Dlaivann - freighter - 2009
Hadrak Visteen - freighter - 2014
Doc Edward - freighter - 2013
INFANITI - freighter - 2009

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#47 - 2016-08-25 13:42:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Not seeing the ganking loses higher sp (or post 15 day) empire bear players angle tbh.

I think that stems from other issues. Main thing is the cart on wheels pve after a bit....gets old. Why I went on my last break which was long. Other pve methods out there, can be better in some aspects.

Or the end goals just aren't there much. Its marauder...decent ship, great empire mission runner...jsut boring after a bit though. I found it to be anyway. MJD snipe cool at first but was just not thrilling. Some say well that's it.

Others like me go well, lets mix things up. We'd be the oddballs in ships and mods bouncing ideas of of the wall pve ships. yes we know just about anything better than a loki for lv 4 and why yes we know of mach...we asked about lv 4 loki fits/ideas, not mach so lets discuss that lol.


Ganking aspect some bears don't even care really. Play enough, read enough, you learn to mitigate if not remove this concern for the most part. The more realistic and cold of us know its why there is faction markets as well. Average hac roam is not going to have cerbs running 2-3 CN BCU. Our markets exist because of bears for this. Some are new buyers. Others we know are replacing lost gear to gank possibly.

May see some miner losses and freighter pilots. That is a case of inflexible player in a fair amount of cases imo and probably would leave for other reason anyway. These are, imo, crappy ways to make isk. They liked them for ease of gameplay. Show them more active, less gank prone means to make isk and it was well I don't like that. When players inflexible like that they are potentially that player lost due to a patch not liked. Gankers just sped up the process really.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#48 - 2016-08-25 14:37:22 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
And then released the most brokenly imba ships we've ever seen in EvE.

No argument from me, but then I did say they still had room to improve.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#49 - 2016-08-25 15:06:52 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Carebears are what pay for EvE. Killing them is counter-productive because a killed carebear is likely to leave and a carebear not paying for a sub is less money for EvE.


CCP looked into this.

They found that 85% of people who leave the game in the first 15 days do so without ever engaging in pvp. They also found people who have been killed are more likely to stay with the game.

Over my years in the game I have seen more than 100 players start, get ganked in the first month or so and quit never to come back so from personal experience CCP numbers are wrong.
Did they send out surveys to former players?
If they so did they send them to ALL former players of just a select few?
If only to a select few how were those people chosen?
If they were sent to a select few what percentage of the total number of players that have quit do these few represent?
Did they rely on feedback given as a part of the player actually quitting if so how large a percentage of those that quit actually left comments?
If they surveyed players who quit what were the actual questions asked?
Tailoring questions for a survey so you can generate what ever statistics you want is easily done.
Giving everyone access to the process used, the actual questions asked and the raw results those questions returned is what we need to determine if CCP is telling us the truth or simply telling us what they want us to hear.

So in short I end where I started the statistics claimed are worthless to support either side of the debate because we are given insufficient information.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#50 - 2016-08-25 16:04:14 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Carebears are what pay for EvE. Killing them is counter-productive because a killed carebear is likely to leave and a carebear not paying for a sub is less money for EvE.


CCP looked into this.

They found that 85% of people who leave the game in the first 15 days do so without ever engaging in pvp. They also found people who have been killed are more likely to stay with the game.

Over my years in the game I have seen more than 100 players start, get ganked in the first month or so and quit never to come back so from personal experience CCP numbers are wrong.
Did they send out surveys to former players?
If they so did they send them to ALL former players of just a select few?
If only to a select few how were those people chosen?
If they were sent to a select few what percentage of the total number of players that have quit do these few represent?
Did they rely on feedback given as a part of the player actually quitting if so how large a percentage of those that quit actually left comments?
If they surveyed players who quit what were the actual questions asked?
Tailoring questions for a survey so you can generate what ever statistics you want is easily done.
Giving everyone access to the process used, the actual questions asked and the raw results those questions returned is what we need to determine if CCP is telling us the truth or simply telling us what they want us to hear.

So in short I end where I started the statistics claimed are worthless to support either side of the debate because we are given insufficient information.




They looked at 80,000 accounts, if there was a problem they would have found it. They have tried to find a connection with ganking causing people to quit and there just isn't one. The evidence actually points towards the less pvp you do the more likely you are to quit playing. Equally the evidence shows that people are more likely to quit if they don't join player corps.
oiukhp Muvila
Doomheim
#51 - 2016-08-25 16:30:13 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Carebears are what pay for EvE. Killing them is counter-productive because a killed carebear is likely to leave and a carebear not paying for a sub is less money for EvE.


CCP looked into this.

They found that 85% of people who leave the game in the first 15 days do so without ever engaging in pvp. They also found people who have been killed are more likely to stay with the game.



Studies can provide the answers YOU want depending on how you frame the questions and present the information, ask any political consultant.

I would like to see the raw data from CCP regarding this, like what was the specific questions asked, how many actually responded and etc.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#52 - 2016-08-25 17:03:53 UTC
oiukhp Muvila wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Carebears are what pay for EvE. Killing them is counter-productive because a killed carebear is likely to leave and a carebear not paying for a sub is less money for EvE.


CCP looked into this.

They found that 85% of people who leave the game in the first 15 days do so without ever engaging in pvp. They also found people who have been killed are more likely to stay with the game.



Studies can provide the answers YOU want depending on how you frame the questions and present the information, ask any political consultant.

I would like to see the raw data from CCP regarding this, like what was the specific questions asked, how many actually responded and etc.



Its not my study and its not the result CCP were expecting.

Another little tidbit, less than 1% of cancelled accounts cite ship loss as the reason for leaving.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#53 - 2016-08-26 03:43:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
baltec1 wrote:
oiukhp Muvila wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Carebears are what pay for EvE. Killing them is counter-productive because a killed carebear is likely to leave and a carebear not paying for a sub is less money for EvE.


CCP looked into this.

They found that 85% of people who leave the game in the first 15 days do so without ever engaging in pvp. They also found people who have been killed are more likely to stay with the game.



Studies can provide the answers YOU want depending on how you frame the questions and present the information, ask any political consultant.

I would like to see the raw data from CCP regarding this, like what was the specific questions asked, how many actually responded and etc.



Its not my study and its not the result CCP were expecting.

Another little tidbit, less than 1% of cancelled accounts cite ship loss as the reason for leaving.

When it comes to ganking 15 days or less is a pointless study. My analysis of your ganking shows that.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#54 - 2016-08-26 14:58:56 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
They looked at 80,000 accounts, if there was a problem they would have found it. They have tried to find a connection with ganking causing people to quit and there just isn't one. The evidence actually points towards the less pvp you do the more likely you are to quit playing. Equally the evidence shows that people are more likely to quit if they don't join player corps.


Did they really look at 80,000 accounts? or did they simply tell us that they looked at them? Again we have no real data to support either of these possibilities.

Even if we accept what we are told their is still the issue of WHICH 80,000 accounts did they look at?
Were all of those accounts former EvE players?
How many of them are still active EvE players?

If they were all former EvE players how many of them did they actually talk to or send a survey to?

And the answer to your comment BEFORE you can make it is yes this it critical if you want an accurate picture of how and why people left. Over the years the UAOU has existed we have had at least 30 players that quit because of ganking, no they were not ganked themselves they simply witnessed a gank and decided that any game that allowed that type of activity was not a game they wanted to play. If these players were a part of that 80,000 CCP would have classified the reasons they left incorrectly, are there enough players in the 80,000 that are like this to make a difference in the numbers? We will never know because CCP does not give us that information.

So we end up where I started way back. The numbers given prove nothing, they are essentially nothing more than a continuation of CCP's telling us what they want us to hear.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#55 - 2016-08-26 17:43:46 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Donnachadh wrote:
Did they really look at 80,000 accounts? or did they simply tell us that they looked at them? Again we have no real data to support either of these possibilities.

Using that argument, you could say that any raw data the DEVs provide has been massaged to make their point.

You have to take it at face value.

Donnachadh wrote:
Even if we accept what we are told their is still the issue of WHICH 80,000 accounts did they look at?
Were all of those accounts former EvE players?
How many of them are still active EvE players?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A92Ge2S8M1Y&feature=youtu.be&t=1m29s

- The sample was 80,000 players (not alt accounts)
- Checked for deaths within the first 15 days of the account existing
---- Checked the death to see if it was "legal" or a "suicide gank."

It is a pretty simple survey, all things considered. They could have (and should have) expanded on it a bit.

Donnachadh wrote:
So we end up where I started way back. The numbers given prove nothing, they are essentially nothing more than a continuation of CCP's telling us what they want us to hear.

Donn... you know me and I know you. You are smarter than this.

Hypothetically... if CCP did another data survey, a more in-depth one, and the numbers showed the opposite of what you are saying... what would you do? Continue to say they are wrong based on your own experience?

Perhaps the people you knew were more predispositioned than others to quit when confronted with situations they did not like.
After all... my experience has been the opposite of yours. People in my social circle who were ganked or fought in wars stayed in the game (and most are still in the game to this day). Those that were not or did not... they quit.

How did you Veterans start?
Solecist Project
#56 - 2016-08-26 18:54:29 UTC
Try this angle, to break his cage...

Why would they lie intentionally?
Why do you believe you´re the good guy here and they lie to you?
What would they gain?


Seriously, the cognitive bias here is insane...

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Solecist Project
#57 - 2016-08-26 18:56:21 UTC
omg this thread is a goldmine! :D
PLEASE keep this up! :D

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#58 - 2016-08-26 20:23:42 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
They looked at 80,000 accounts, if there was a problem they would have found it. They have tried to find a connection with ganking causing people to quit and there just isn't one. The evidence actually points towards the less pvp you do the more likely you are to quit playing. Equally the evidence shows that people are more likely to quit if they don't join player corps.


Did they really look at 80,000 accounts? or did they simply tell us that they looked at them? Again we have no real data to support either of these possibilities.

Even if we accept what we are told their is still the issue of WHICH 80,000 accounts did they look at?
Were all of those accounts former EvE players?
How many of them are still active EvE players?

If they were all former EvE players how many of them did they actually talk to or send a survey to?

And the answer to your comment BEFORE you can make it is yes this it critical if you want an accurate picture of how and why people left. Over the years the UAOU has existed we have had at least 30 players that quit because of ganking, no they were not ganked themselves they simply witnessed a gank and decided that any game that allowed that type of activity was not a game they wanted to play. If these players were a part of that 80,000 CCP would have classified the reasons they left incorrectly, are there enough players in the 80,000 that are like this to make a difference in the numbers? We will never know because CCP does not give us that information.

So we end up where I started way back. The numbers given prove nothing, they are essentially nothing more than a continuation of CCP's telling us what they want us to hear.


Thats quite a bit of tinfoil there.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#59 - 2016-08-27 06:15:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Solecist Project wrote:
Try this angle, to break his cage...

Why would they lie intentionally?
Why do you believe you´re the good guy here and they lie to you?
What would they gain?


Seriously, the cognitive bias here is insane...

They didn't lie. They likely unintentionally choose the wrong data set or were trying to test an assertion that had nothing to do with total number of people quitting over suicide ganking.

As I already explained, I produced facts, verifiable from Baltec1's killboard, that on the last day of his ganking in highsec, he killed 15 people, NONE of his victims was 15 days old or less.

While a small sample, it equates to 100% on that day, if extrapolated and the pattern reproduces which it almost certainly will, it shows that CCP's survey was pointless and all it proved is what we already know: Ganking newbs is pointless which is why most gank freighters, orca's and indies.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#60 - 2016-08-27 06:55:36 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

Thats quite a bit of tinfoil there.



seems like it. I was ganked 5 days in eve. No one told me about autopilot settings and to select avoid low sec systems. Route I chose had a low sec system in it. I met new and interesting people who dropped my ass hard. I learned to click off don't use low sec systems. And to not use autopilot so much as well lol. Live moved on.


Still around most of the time years later. I leave to pursue more seriously other games when that arises. Not married to this game lol.


I have done this exit survey a few times on breaks....it does't ask some questions.


Like did you read and understand everything about eve before you signed up. Can be taken as a standoff ish question...so can the point in not asking. Sounds accusing.

Thing is this game is marketed open sand box and mentions pvp as part of that. Even non eve players now this. They'd be the permanent residents of other MMO's pure care bear servers. Not a bad thing that...play how you like I say. want to pure bear...enjoy that. On a game that supports better the best option really.

Point is the pvp element, to include gank is known gaming world wide. I know xbox gamers who know this....they aren't even in the mmo scene.

Also doesn't ask did you come here with pvp experience or looking for it. Again this my case. Was in a pvp heavy guild in another game and we were looking for new thrills. Eve player or 2 among us said well we could try eve if you'd like. That offer was accepted obviously. have a pvp interest or background ganks aren't issues. Its (eve) life.

I blamed myself for the loss above. Not the game, not the mechanics. Same as with the few ganks after that. Even years later I flew really stupid....and a charon with a decent load was lost. I flew like a tard, people showed me why you don't do that the hard way.