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[September] Mining Barge and Exhumer tweaks

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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#501 - 2016-09-18 14:32:29 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Resa Moon wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Resa Moon wrote:

You either miss the point or are simply trolling.

Because it might be able to go toe-to-toe with a particular gang size and composition doesn't mean the risk becomes reasonable because folks hunting for Rorqs will come with a crew to do the job and the key point is that with the Industrial Core green it will be a sitting duck, regardless of how long it has to sit.


Seems to me you are not going to be happy until CCP give you an I-win button.

Having an even chance of success vs a similar sized gang of cruisers/hac/pirate cruisers is more than enough.


As if you can sit there and await an arranged fight of a particular composition.

An I-win button, no. Miners have always been at risk and that reasonable risk makes it more interesting. Unreasonable risk makes it stupid. You can't field the Rorq and predict what opposing force will appear while you're green. Pointless to posit ideal situations.


People are ratting in solo titans. A 3 bil rorqual is not a huge risk.


Ratting titans don't have to immobolise themselves, and also can't be tackled with a single long point.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#502 - 2016-09-18 14:46:19 UTC
Malcanis wrote:


Ratting titans don't have to immobolise themselves, and also can't be tackled with a single long point.


They do when the fire the doomsday and if you are going after a titan then bubbles are going to be involved.
Alexis Ford
Good Names All Gone
#503 - 2016-09-18 16:05:29 UTC
So ratting titans have no guns to shoot back ?
Even now as you can fit High angel guns against subcap ships ?
And you have to get a Booster on Grid to get more than 40% dps ?

Please stop comparing things that are NOT compareable.

And sorry .. as a member of PL talking about risking a ratting titan (with 30+ SC ready in the backhand.)
99,9% of eve doesnt have this luxury.
And Titan Doomsday ratting is ******** - with a cooldowntimer 10 times longer than the Anom needs to finish.
thats not a "we risk something" thats "haha i am bored to death" and for showing off.

But these are MINING Ships ... for Mining ... and thats all they can "good".
Mininglaser cant shoot someone (wuhu ... idea for "attack crystal" incoming :D )

Maybe we realy should change the method offensive weapons are working.

If you Undock your guns will be set to damage against NPCs or Normal ships.
All Damage will be limited to 40% of your actuall stats ... you have to bring a booster with you.
But depending on how much you want to risk you can get bacck to your 100% DPS (against Npc OR others).
Sadly it will be a Capital Noctis ... 1 Year of training ... at least 3bil cost ... can only pickup your loot ... and has to be immobile to give you the 100% DPS.

Then only 2 good Anoms in system ... so if someone comes in system he does not need to search you.
All anoms stays on the same spot for 3 days straight except you and 17 Friends fight against the NPCs for at least 12hours straight.

Suddenly you would be in the Miningship position ... you have defense capabilities but they are very weak.
you can only do damage with drones (for droneboats these get limited).

Carrier, SC ... they can fight back ... and they got realy good at this.
Rorqual, Hulk, Mackinaw ... no Guns ... weak damage ... and thin as paper except the Rorqual
If you never planned to use them for mining or trade in 50% of yield a SECOND time (Boost and Ship) they are helpless against attackers

like a Rattingship with only "PVP guns" as mentioned above ... usless in the Anom ... but you are well prepared
No isk gain but you are prepared.



Please get me straight ... i am NOT wanting to have Miningships to be a 1click Win button.
But as long as we do not know how powerfull the changes for Rorqual/Orca will get we have to asume it will get hard as hell to get the Miningboost only slightly near to that what it was for years.


yes i did ratting in 0.0 with support and intel and collapsing WHs etc.
i did Mining in HS in 0.0 .. mission running ... incursion ... Big coallition PVP ... Gatecamps ... bomberops ... scouting etc.

i fully understand Risk vers. Isk --- but there never was such a huge "possible" Nerf down to 40%DPS or ISK in PVE with such high Riskincrease to level it out to 100-110% again.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#504 - 2016-09-18 16:41:51 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Malcanis wrote:


Ratting titans don't have to immobolise themselves, and also can't be tackled with a single long point.


They do when the fire the doomsday and if you are going after a titan then bubbles are going to be involved.


RATTING Titans don't have to immobilise themselves.

And raising the bar to "multiple dictors & hictors" significantly increases the threshold of attack compared to what is needed vs a rorqual. It's not that I don't agree with your basic viewpoint here (that it's fine for Rorquals to be on grid) but let's not discredit that argument by being dishonest about it.

There is simply no need to couple the mining leadership boost function of the Rorqual with the Industrial Core. Let the Core serve some other function rather than hobbling the Rorqual's command boosting function with a restriction that no other boosting ship suffers.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#505 - 2016-09-19 05:37:13 UTC
Alexis Ford wrote:
So ratting titans have no guns to shoot back ?
Even now as you can fit High angel guns against subcap ships ?
And you have to get a Booster on Grid to get more than 40% dps ?

Please stop comparing things that are NOT compareable.


When you go titan hunting you bring the firepower to render it dead in fast order. Its entirely comparable because we have people running around in titan ratting away while you are terrified about putting out a 3 billion isk ship.

Alexis Ford wrote:

And sorry .. as a member of PL talking about risking a ratting titan (with 30+ SC ready in the backhand.)
99,9% of eve doesnt have this luxury.
And Titan Doomsday ratting is ******** - with a cooldowntimer 10 times longer than the Anom needs to finish.
thats not a "we risk something" thats "haha i am bored to death" and for showing off.


Wrong again.

These things are popping up all over the place.
Resa Moon
New Eden Miners Association
Interplay
#506 - 2016-09-19 08:15:08 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Alexis Ford wrote:
So ratting titans have no guns to shoot back ?
Even now as you can fit High angel guns against subcap ships ?
And you have to get a Booster on Grid to get more than 40% dps ?

Please stop comparing things that are NOT compareable.


When you go titan hunting you bring the firepower to render it dead in fast order. Its entirely comparable because we have people running around in titan ratting away while you are terrified about putting out a 3 billion isk ship.

Alexis Ford wrote:

And sorry .. as a member of PL talking about risking a ratting titan (with 30+ SC ready in the backhand.)
99,9% of eve doesnt have this luxury.
And Titan Doomsday ratting is ******** - with a cooldowntimer 10 times longer than the Anom needs to finish.
thats not a "we risk something" thats "haha i am bored to death" and for showing off.


Wrong again.

These things are popping up all over the place.


Because some folks are ratting in a Titan without adequate precautions, it makes putting a Rorq in a belt or anom and going green with the Core a reasonable risk.

Very poor thinking/trolling.

New Eden Mining Blog
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#507 - 2016-09-19 12:15:12 UTC
Resa Moon wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Alexis Ford wrote:
So ratting titans have no guns to shoot back ?
Even now as you can fit High angel guns against subcap ships ?
And you have to get a Booster on Grid to get more than 40% dps ?

Please stop comparing things that are NOT compareable.


When you go titan hunting you bring the firepower to render it dead in fast order. Its entirely comparable because we have people running around in titan ratting away while you are terrified about putting out a 3 billion isk ship.

Alexis Ford wrote:

And sorry .. as a member of PL talking about risking a ratting titan (with 30+ SC ready in the backhand.)
99,9% of eve doesnt have this luxury.
And Titan Doomsday ratting is ******** - with a cooldowntimer 10 times longer than the Anom needs to finish.
thats not a "we risk something" thats "haha i am bored to death" and for showing off.


Wrong again.

These things are popping up all over the place.


Because some folks are ratting in a Titan without adequate precautions, it makes putting a Rorq in a belt or anom and going green with the Core a reasonable risk.

Very poor thinking/trolling.


CCP have yet to show us the details on the rorqual changes.
Nick Bison
Bison Industrial Inc
#508 - 2016-09-19 13:52:50 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Malcanis wrote:


Ratting titans don't have to immobolise themselves, and also can't be tackled with a single long point.


They do when the fire the doomsday and if you are going after a titan then bubbles are going to be involved.


RATTING Titans don't have to immobilise themselves.

And raising the bar to "multiple dictors & hictors" significantly increases the threshold of attack compared to what is needed vs a rorqual. It's not that I don't agree with your basic viewpoint here (that it's fine for Rorquals to be on grid) but let's not discredit that argument by being dishonest about it.

There is simply no need to couple the mining leadership boost function of the Rorqual with the Industrial Core. Let the Core serve some other function rather than hobbling the Rorqual's command boosting function with a restriction that no other boosting ship suffers.


I think Malcanis hit the nail on the head here. Separating the mining bonus from the industrial core (green) would resolve most of my misgivings on using my Rorqs in the mining sites. The industrial core can still be used for compression and possibly something else however, with the proliferation of compression arrays and some citadels that can compress, perhaps some new uses could be found.

Nothing clever at this time.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#509 - 2016-09-19 20:06:09 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


CCP have yet to show us the details on the rorqual changes.

The details they showed us in the boosting blog say that you will have to immobile yourself with the core to get boosts worth risking the rorqual. Hence we have seen the detail that is relevant.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#510 - 2016-09-20 18:50:49 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


CCP have yet to show us the details on the rorqual changes.

The details they showed us in the boosting blog say that you will have to immobile yourself with the core to get boosts worth risking the rorqual. Hence we have seen the detail that is relevant.


I don't have much faith in this going well, just look at these barge changes. But I'm holding fire till I see the package.
Demortis
Galloglas
Fraternity.
#511 - 2016-09-21 15:50:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Demortis
Whatever you guys are smokin is messing with your logi systems please stop LOL. I'm watching the member count drop daily and people doing mass exodus of game please get into rehab and fix yourself's. I love eve and I have seen it grow to a jugernaught and now without indies like myself your gonna see your weekly averages fall like they have the last few weeks. Soon I can see it being like logging into singularity numbers and then your bosses will just shut the servers down completely. Hmmm then maybe the free public will start popping up again like before and we can all go free omega's in other peoples servers. I can see not many of you guys are thinking to much about the future and more about what slap stick you can create today to wreak the system. GL out there finding other work for crashers is not easy.
Iskra Vohonick
Vohonick Industrial and Professional Services
#512 - 2016-09-22 03:22:31 UTC
This change is so wrong in so many points of view I cannot cover them all; the major ones are as follows:

As a critique on the art I object to the fuming, polluting and belching of energy and material if the artists would read the story line they would know that this would not be permitted or tolerated in a society that recycles everything. It's dirty and ugly. Plus hey the graphics are all the same now you can't tell which one you are flying. Saving space on the server?.

On the arbitrary redistribution of wealth these ships cost differently players worked hard to chose the best match for themselves and their game style, this effort has been rendered meaningless. What are we communists?

Now let talk about the empty 50,000 M3 volume and 10,000,000kg mass. since the Covetor is now missing it's rite-ful 3rd mining rig what has gone in it's place? nothing yet it's weight and mass remains the same. Even science cries out foul

This is called a senseless injustice why did it take 4 years to come to pass? Cause it should never have happened.

I call on you to rollback this change and restore the configuration of the crafts.
Let us boys and girls play the cards as they are dealt.

Iskra
Kuda Timberline
Alea Iacta Est Universal
Blades of Grass
#513 - 2016-09-22 16:13:01 UTC
I've had a little bit of time to play around with the exhumers now and I'd like to leave my feedback on these changes.

I say this in jest... but I'm a little curious if anyone at CCP has ever sat in an exhumer? I'm calling this the #MiningNerf2016

I'll start with first impressions... upon first logging into the game i opened my hanger to find that the thumbnail for both the Mack and the Hulk now look exactly alike. I'm inclined to agree with another poster in this thread... is CCP trying to save server space by dumbing down the look of exhumers? (I know this isn't the case, but dang, can we get a unique thumbnail?

Next issue is fitting in general... Is the Hulk meant to leave Hi-Sec anymore? Why are we not allowed to fit a tank that can withstand a minor brush w/ null sec rats? I've got perfect fitting skills and I've been unable to find a viable fitting for the hulk... Some of the fits I've tried I'm not even using all the mid slots and I'm using a survey scanner (which doesn't take much pwr or CPU). They've essentially turned the Hulk and the Mack into useless machines. After horsing around for a few hours I literally destroyed my rigs, repackaged my Hulk & Skiff, and sold em on market. Welcome to Skiff Mining Online...

Additionally I'm a bit confused by the additional lazor on the Skiff? Were these ships not expensive enough for Code. to gank before so now we had to make them harder to fit and add the additional cost of another lazor? This is only a buff to gankers and yet another nerf for miners.

I'd like to list the nerfs we miners have seen in the past few years (I'm sure there are more, but these are the ones I've thought of off the top of my head)

Circus reprocessing nerf (Thanks for making Scrapmetal V uselss)
Removal of team (these teams gave a bonus to reprocessing... CCP removed them w/o an alternative)
Reallocation of minerals included in ore. This was mostly just a buff for Null sec.
Mining boosts soon to be removed. (CCP hasn't fully nuked these yet.. but I can hear them drooling over it)

Maybe CCP could take a few min to make sure a 1.2M isk Catalyst is more balanced with 25M isk barges too.

The state of mining is just absurd and I realize part of this is CCP's attempt to raise mineral prices so that people have to buy a PLEX to purchase a doctrine ship... This is something they need to happen so they can justify the new Free-to-play model.

With 10ISK trit imagine the number of PLEX they will sell?

Kuda Timberline

Co-host Capstable Podcast
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#514 - 2016-09-22 16:59:26 UTC
Kuda Timberline wrote:

Additionally I'm a bit confused by the additional lazor on the Skiff? Were these ships not expensive enough for Code. to gank before so now we had to make them harder to fit and add the additional cost of another lazor? This is only a buff to gankers and yet another nerf for miners.


An extra laster will do nothing to make you worth ganking. Its impossible to turn a profit ganking skiffs.
Kuda Timberline wrote:

I'd like to list the nerfs we miners have seen in the past few years (I'm sure there are more, but these are the ones I've thought of off the top of my head)

Circus reprocessing nerf (Thanks for making Scrapmetal V uselss)
Removal of team (these teams gave a bonus to reprocessing... CCP removed them w/o an alternative)
Reallocation of minerals included in ore. This was mostly just a buff for Null sec.
Mining boosts soon to be removed. (CCP hasn't fully nuked these yet.. but I can hear them drooling over it)

Maybe CCP could take a few min to make sure a 1.2M isk Catalyst is more balanced with 25M isk barges too.


Go look at the nerfs made to ganking over the years, they dwarf the nerfs made to mining by a long way. Oddly enough, the nerfs to ganking have made it worse for miners as it used to be a case of gank miners for profit. Now after yeas of nerfs its impossible to turn a profit so every miner no matter how they fit is game for gankers.
Kuda Timberline wrote:

The state of mining is just absurd and I realize part of this is CCP's attempt to raise mineral prices so that people have to buy a PLEX to purchase a doctrine ship... This is something they need to happen so they can justify the new Free-to-play model.

With 10ISK trit imagine the number of PLEX they will sell?


Actually this mantra keeps prices of minerals low. If you want higher mineral prices (and thus higher earnings as a miner) then we need to return to what we had 6 years ago.
Brinjee Amatin
Silent Nomads
Nomads - Reloaded
#515 - 2016-09-22 18:09:52 UTC
Kuda Timberline wrote:
Next issue is fitting in general... Is the Hulk meant to leave Hi-Sec anymore? Why are we not allowed to fit a tank that can withstand a minor brush w/ null sec rats? I've got perfect fitting skills and I've been unable to find a viable fitting for the hulk... Some of the fits I've tried I'm not even using all the mid slots and I'm using a survey scanner (which doesn't take much pwr or CPU). They've essentially turned the Hulk and the Mack into useless machines. After horsing around for a few hours I literally destroyed my rigs, repackaged my Hulk & Skiff, and sold em on market. Welcome to Skiff Mining Online...


I noticed the same thing with the new Hulk - its CPU and Power Grid can't support a full fit. Whether you're optimizing for yield or tank, you're going to have empty slots. It's disappointing because I was looking for a high-yield high-attention (i.e. not afk) solo option that wasn't an automatic free kill even in high sec.

Someone on reddit posted this very expensive option, which is probably self-defeating in the end:

2x mod strips t2
gistum c-type passive hardener x2
pithi c-type small shield booster
survey t2
3x MLU II
CPU rig and shield rig.
fits with 3% cpu implant and tanks gurista spawns just fine
Cade Windstalker
#516 - 2016-09-22 19:49:29 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Malcanis wrote:


Ratting titans don't have to immobolise themselves, and also can't be tackled with a single long point.


They do when the fire the doomsday and if you are going after a titan then bubbles are going to be involved.


RATTING Titans don't have to immobilise themselves.

And raising the bar to "multiple dictors & hictors" significantly increases the threshold of attack compared to what is needed vs a rorqual. It's not that I don't agree with your basic viewpoint here (that it's fine for Rorquals to be on grid) but let's not discredit that argument by being dishonest about it.

There is simply no need to couple the mining leadership boost function of the Rorqual with the Industrial Core. Let the Core serve some other function rather than hobbling the Rorqual's command boosting function with a restriction that no other boosting ship suffers.


The Rorqual is going to be a great booster without the mining core though. You just get the option to deploy the core and get a significant boost on top of that or leave it alone and be a bit safer. I don't really see a problem with that sort of risk/reward dynamic.

I'd also point out that we still haven't seen final stats for the Rorqual, the Industrial Core, or basically anything except these mining ships, so jumping to conclusions about what is or isn't balanced on a ship we're basically pulling stats out of our anatomy for seems a bit premature.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#517 - 2016-09-22 19:54:42 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Kuda Timberline wrote:

Additionally I'm a bit confused by the additional lazor on the Skiff? Were these ships not expensive enough for Code. to gank before so now we had to make them harder to fit and add the additional cost of another lazor? This is only a buff to gankers and yet another nerf for miners.


An extra laster will do nothing to make you worth ganking. Its impossible to turn a profit ganking skiffs.
Kuda Timberline wrote:

I'd like to list the nerfs we miners have seen in the past few years (I'm sure there are more, but these are the ones I've thought of off the top of my head)

Circus reprocessing nerf (Thanks for making Scrapmetal V uselss)
Removal of team (these teams gave a bonus to reprocessing... CCP removed them w/o an alternative)
Reallocation of minerals included in ore. This was mostly just a buff for Null sec.
Mining boosts soon to be removed. (CCP hasn't fully nuked these yet.. but I can hear them drooling over it)

Maybe CCP could take a few min to make sure a 1.2M isk Catalyst is more balanced with 25M isk barges too.


Go look at the nerfs made to ganking over the years, they dwarf the nerfs made to mining by a long way. Oddly enough, the nerfs to ganking have made it worse for miners as it used to be a case of gank miners for profit. Now after yeas of nerfs its impossible to turn a profit so every miner no matter how they fit is game for gankers.
Kuda Timberline wrote:

The state of mining is just absurd and I realize part of this is CCP's attempt to raise mineral prices so that people have to buy a PLEX to purchase a doctrine ship... This is something they need to happen so they can justify the new Free-to-play model.

With 10ISK trit imagine the number of PLEX they will sell?


Actually this mantra keeps prices of minerals low. If you want higher mineral prices (and thus higher earnings as a miner) then we need to return to what we had 6 years ago.


I think you mean 9 years ago. 6 years ago, gun-mining was at its height and mineral prices were in the dumpster.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#518 - 2016-09-22 20:40:12 UTC
Malcanis wrote:


I think you mean 9 years ago. 6 years ago, gun-mining was at its height and mineral prices were in the dumpster.


I was more thinking of the ice interdictions. They proved that injecting a lot of violence into mining meant ice prices rose rapidly and the smart miners made bank.
Penance Toralen
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#519 - 2016-09-22 22:25:05 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
An extra laster will do nothing to make you worth ganking. Its impossible to turn a profit ganking skiffs.


CCP Soundwave: Sucide Ganking is not intended to be profitable. Sounds like working as intended then.
EA Leguard
Blue Clam Investments
#520 - 2016-09-23 03:26:18 UTC
I am a self-chosen Miner! Knowing that here is my opinion on the new mining barge / exhumer changes!

THEY SUCK! Because you have to spend more time mining despite the extra strip miner! You took away the bonuses for using mining barges making them almost worthless. Now it takes twice as long to get the same amount of ore! This leaves miners exposed to gankers "like CODE"! I feel like CCP is trying to get rid of miners all together. I say this because CCP nerfed Miners and Industrialists before. Now it takes 8 times longer to get the same amount of ore before the first nerf happened! I think that CCP needs to reverse the changes made to mining barges and then leave them alone! They weren't broke so don't fix them!

My prediction for the future if CCP doesn't reverse the recent changes to Mining Barges / Exhumers!

1. Miners will stop mining!

2. Prices will rise until everything becomes unaffordable!

3. Players will quit and/or leave in Masses!

4. CCP will be forced to discontinue Eve due to loss of income (aka Paying Players!)