Upcoming Feature and Change Feedback Center

in my opinion, native EHP is a completely irrelevent stat, beyond its influence on fitted stats - which we've already determined is not excessive.

Nobody flies around presuming that honor tanks are fitted, its just a suprise when the target melts.



Yours, where you keep wanting each and every mining ship, to do each and every mining role, which is confusing, ruins d-scan as an intel tool, makes their roles within mining overlap and makes even just figuring out what people have in your own mining fleet, impossible without checking the fittings of every ship in the fleet.



There is no logical difference from knowing the role of a module, vs knowing the role of a hull. Do you see why I think what you are saying is bizzare now ? If a miner has gotten to the point that they understand what all 6 barges are for, that is entirely equivalent knowledge to knowing what an LSE is.

Guess who fleeted with them, guess who's max leadership, implanted orca pilot sat at a safe boosting for an hour a day in their system. Guess who switched to a ****ing skiff to defend when the regular CASMA booster logged in. guess who flew that skiff to the retrievers in the fleet when gankers turned up. Guess who showed them what a skiff was for by example. Guess who discussed fittings with them, guess who discussed yields with them, guess who pointed them to cerlestes to figure out which ore is the most valuable so they spent most of their time not mining the wrong ore, guess who donated ventures to newbies if they lost them. Guess who was telling them to set the gankers to red in their overview.

Guess who was on the npc corp chat telling people about CASMA, how to get boosts, and where to be fleeted, and thus where to begin cooperating with other players. Even though I haven't mined for years, I still tell new players where to get boosts to this very day.

ie the role of fixing the knowledge of miners is not something that the slotting of exhumers solves. that role is a task for players, its a task I've done, and its a task I still do.



Yes I see now, CCP is handing out exhumer skills on trials, putting newbies in skiffs, spawning vast amounts of plag in the starter system, undocking for them, and firing their strips for them, and they are figuring out none of the inbetween, not losing any ships on the way, and not figuring out for themselves what the skiff is for, and they are earning 50m+ an hour on trial from the getgo like I did with this character in a frigate doing combat exploration, where the only bad thing that ever happened to me was hecates being faster than me to the bloody loot.



Because its fair that a destroyer kills every cruiser in the game, in the 16-25 seconds that it takes concord to drop the donuts, even if the player has gone through all the bother of learning about the ship, earning the money for the ship and the skills in a hitpointless barge, and absolutely, whatever else happens, the gankers shouldn't have to think about their fittings, because a catalyst should always automatically win. Your argument is entirely reversable.

We've been through this already. if you make this so, then you d-scan tells you generic exhumer is in the anomoly or belt. that is all it tells you. You do this and solo cat gankers are only going to warp to ventures. The only people favoured by this is industrial scale ganking groups.

I hate to split hairs but wouldn't balancing one without the other be pretty much useless for those that only have half the picture?

If we are to discuss balancing the mining ships, their fits, yields, actual use (tank/cargo/yield/other unknown) then all of the figures must be reasonably supplied so that a 'before and after' image can be seen by everyone and balance discussion can stem from that, rather than speculation and 'what if?' in regards to boosting, the new battle cruiser mining booster, potential changes to mining drones/introduction of fighters and the long waited for Rorqual changes.

Saying that right now (pulling numbers out of my butt) that with the current proposed changes the hulk is mining less than current, but having in the future the new mining boosts pushing it to say 5% over what it currently does (thus making the proposed change better rather than worse which is what it would look like without the full picture). Saying 'Don't worry guys, it will be fine' won't really do to make people happy because of the track record of ignoring player feedback with things (jump fatigue, fozzy sov etc).

I'm sure some of us would appreciate the bigger picture, even if it's just a rough sketch, so that we can ascertain the rough idea of how things are going to work out. other wise this is just a pointless exercise when looking at the mining meta and how it's changing rather than the single units that make the whole.

Just my thoughts however

"That's the problem. You want an idiot proof EVE, one that coddles miners and new players (who often get their start in mining,) a system that shields players from the true nature of eve. Players who make poor choices, who don't network, learn from available resources or other players get punished for their bad decisions. The skiff if about as idiot proof as it gets. You don't need the fit the right hardeners, you don't need a good fit, most of the time you're safe. Can they be ganked? Sure. Are they? At about a 100:1 rate with other t2 barges. That's wrong, no player, ever, should have near immunity to danger, while still reaping most of the benefits of severely more dangerous, but only slightly less lucrative options, while sporting a garbage fit just because the ship that they fly has everything they need baked into the hull.

Everyone else gets the hard lessons. Think your orthrus is a solo pwnmobile and that you can warp into two oracles and a huginn? You're going to get whats coming to you. Undock a carrier with t1 fighters and no support to fight a 100mn cruiser gang and you're in for another expensive lesson. That is EVE, this is the game we play, and no player should ever be set apart because it breaks the system, leaves players self entitled and leads to this kind of 'debate' we see on this forum every day."



Ahh, the truth is out at last..you just can't go and kill one when you want with a **** fit Catalyst...didums.

You and others are still trying to compare them to other ships, you're on about the Orthrus and Carriers, which were designed to fill a role, a SPECIFIC one.

How long does it take to train into a gank Catalyst or other Destroyer? How long for a Skiff? I'll post from Uniwiki below.

Coddles miners, lmao. New players can't even dream of flying one for months...It's not being self entitled you self entitled moron..To sit in a Skiff, a player has earned that right over a long period.

http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Skiff

52 days just to sit in it, months and months more for the fittings and skills just for T2 crystals, then there's ice mining to train for, gas huffing to train for, drones to train for, to bring the core skills up, god knows (the info is probably out there somewhere, I got sick of counting).

http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Catalyst

A few paltry hours, and you all expect to be able to kill a ship that takes the above amount of training....

Every miner has had the hard knocks pal, all through his or her career, we have to put up with your rubbish as well on top of it all, but don't worry, the tears from wannabe gankers is worth it.

Agreed, but there'll never be enough for some

Or you know, he's actually right. Mining & Industrial ships should have real fittings. The nitpicking over what the T2 versions should be specialised to is one thing, but the basic fact that mining vessels should not have hard coded stats which fittings barely alter in three different version, but one version that fittings then create three (or more) different archetypes from is something EVE desperately needs as it's what really moves miners from being purely treated as helpless prey by everyone to being taken seriously. The reason people treat miners as Helpless prey is because CCP have said so with their lack of fittings.

Also, if you are going to compare a Catalyst and a Skiff, please compare a T2 fitted Catalyst to a Skiff at least.
Or you know, do the actual realistic comparison of a Catalyst to a Procurer. Which also has more than enough tank to laugh at a solo skiff, and doesn't take 52 days to get to and sit in.

and no Sizof, Smart Bombs should A: Never become what you list as it makes pipe bombs insanely overpowered and a module should not magically become worse in a different security space. and B: Will not provide a real defence anyway because ganks are currently over far too fast. And C: To do this you need to provide them with utility highs and massive PG/CPU/Cap bonuses. Or insanely overpowered Smart bomb bonuses. Oh and Utility highs anyway. 50% of Yield to fit 1 bomb that won't actually do enough damage in 20 seconds is pointless.

Gankers have been scanning ships prior to attacks for a while now.

So serious question? Since you're doing a mining barge pass, and will soon be doing some of the mining structures, and the orca and rorqual.... why is all this work being thrown into making a bad process look better, but still be just as bad?


Why are we not doing a proper re-vamp and addressing, for better or worse, alot of the long standing complaints with mining, and working forward from there?

Hi guys,
I thought I would punch in the new stats for the t2 ships into a my mining simulator and see what conclusions I could come up with. The mackinaw hasn't changed so I didn't bother simulating it.

The skiff showed little change for null, whether using your survey scanner to short cycle your laser or lazy mining. In high sec, lazy mining yield went up 12%. This was due to less over mining, more lasers of lower yield. I didn't simulate low sec mining but I would expect lazy mining to be a few percent better too.

The hulks I only simulated with orca support using all ore types. One hulk and a orca was 6% better due to a extra mlu. Under lazy mining conditions it was only 4% better due to losing its very low yield lasers.

Typically the t1 ships show a similar trend to the t2 version under simulation.

TLDR; Lazy high sec skiff miners rejoice.

Cheers,
Neug

I haven't seen one post like that, what I have seen is players saying ganking should have more consequences other than losing a cheap ship and taking a 15 min tea break.

How would utility slots possibly help a solo miner anywhere?

Give me an extra 5 turret slots and the power grid and cpu needed to run them and I'd go for it.