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Navy issue battlecruisers
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#21 - 2011-12-22 02:35:08 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
Yep, it was too quiet. Surprised another of these **** "I wanna wanna tech II, tech III, faction, pirate Draek" threads took so long to hit S&M again. But here it is.Ugh

No, no you can't have a better draek with which to load more LSE and SPR and tank more pve content with. Get lost.Evil


I want a Brutix with an 8th high (incl turret) and 6th (or even 7th!) low.

I can haz?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Goose99
#22 - 2011-12-22 02:42:55 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Lili Lu wrote:
Yep, it was too quiet. Surprised another of these **** "I wanna wanna tech II, tech III, faction, pirate Draek" threads took so long to hit S&M again. But here it is.Ugh

No, no you can't have a better draek with which to load more LSE and SPR and tank more pve content with. Get lost.Evil


I want a Brutix with an 8th high (incl turret) and 6th (or even 7th!) low.

I can haz?

-Liang


And it will produce a hilarious killmail for somebody's cane.Cool
Alara IonStorm
#23 - 2011-12-22 02:48:40 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Lili Lu wrote:
Yep, it was too quiet. Surprised another of these **** "I wanna wanna tech II, tech III, faction, pirate Draek" threads took so long to hit S&M again. But here it is.Ugh

No, no you can't have a better draek with which to load more LSE and SPR and tank more pve content with. Get lost.Evil


I want a Brutix with an 8th high (incl turret) and 6th (or even 7th!) low.

I can haz?

-Liang


And it will produce a hilarious killmail for somebody's cane.Cool

So it ******* begins.

See you two on page ten... =/
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#24 - 2011-12-22 02:50:31 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:

So it ******* begins.

See you two on page ten... =/


Its a faction battlecruiser thread. There can be nothing said that hasn't been said a thousand times before. :)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liam Mirren
#25 - 2011-12-22 02:57:45 UTC
The fact that I don't have to go "are you ********? Tier 2s are already so imbalanced it's sick, they should actually be nerfed. And you want BETTER ones?" because others already did so restored some of my faith in humanity. If only a little bit.

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#26 - 2011-12-22 02:59:09 UTC
Liam Mirren wrote:
The fact that I don't have to go "are you ********? Tier 2s are already so imbalanced it's sick, they should actually be nerfed. And you want BETTER ones?" because others already did so restored some of my faith in humanity. If only a little bit.


What roles to Tier 2 BCs take from other ships that they would ever have legitimately filled?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
ElCholo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2011-12-22 03:07:48 UTC
I would rather see the tier 1 BCs as faction issues. It would be fun to have a Fleet Cyclone. Maybe make them a little more viable since the tier 2 BCs usually make the tier 1 BCs obsolete.
Goose99
#28 - 2011-12-22 03:08:17 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Liam Mirren wrote:
The fact that I don't have to go "are you ********? Tier 2s are already so imbalanced it's sick, they should actually be nerfed. And you want BETTER ones?" because others already did so restored some of my faith in humanity. If only a little bit.


What roles to Tier 2 BCs take from other ships that they would ever have legitimately filled?

-Liang


Yes, canes and drakes are the lucky recipient of the role "pwnage on the cheap," to the detriment of tier 1s, might I add.Lol

And it's not all tier 2s, btw. Harby is fine as is. And Myrm needs a drone buff.
Liam Mirren
#29 - 2011-12-22 03:13:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Liam Mirren
Liang Nuren wrote:
Liam Mirren wrote:
The fact that I don't have to go "are you ********? Tier 2s are already so imbalanced it's sick, they should actually be nerfed. And you want BETTER ones?" because others already did so restored some of my faith in humanity. If only a little bit.


What roles to Tier 2 BCs take from other ships that they would ever have legitimately filled?

-Liang


Diversity. When they got introduced they completely messed up the balance between cruisers/HACS and BCs, Then the Myrm got nerfed (too harshly imo, should have kept 100m3 bandwidth) but most are out of whack. I'm sure I don't have to explain that if a certain ship type is the go-to answer for just about any question it needs adjustment.

Drakes and Canes are too good, Harb is only good because Scorch is OP and the Myrm is actually a tad weak. Dropping a mid slot from the Drake and removing the damage bonus from the Cane while allowing for a 7th turret slot would make them less OP and still more than good enough.

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.
Alara IonStorm
#30 - 2011-12-22 03:21:01 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

What roles to Tier 2 BCs take from other ships that they would ever have legitimately filled?

-Liang

The Cane fitting a couple of Nano's can pretty much out run any non Minmatar Cruisers and Armor Cruisers. It has 1.5-2x the DPS 1.5-3x the tank and better range them most cruisers. The Drake hangs around lobbing incredible accurate Missiles to ridiculous ranges that match or out dmg most Cruisers with a massive battleship tank and it is not exactly slow.

The only cruisers that get serious use are EWAR, Logi, Kiters and Sig Tankers. Leaves a lot of Slow Armor Cruisers sitting around wondering why Capsuleers just don't touch them like they used too.

The Tier System and bad roles have kept a lot of Cruisers out of the fight. Now Battlecruisers... 2 Battlecruisers to be accurate have become what is akin to the Standard of EVE while what should be the standard (Cruisers) are left to rot.

I hope they rebalance Cruiser roles so the Nanocane can not "Do it all but better" for every non Cynabal out there.
ElCholo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2011-12-22 03:40:14 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
And it will produce a hilarious killmail for somebody's cane.Cool


I just want to point out and quote the idiot who just turned this into a nerf Minmatar and buff ((insertfavoriteracehere)) thread. I'm sure nobody is surprised that it's the faceless tard, Goose99, who always brings the bar down so low in any thread that he posts in.

Yay....
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#32 - 2011-12-22 04:07:36 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Liam Mirren wrote:
The fact that I don't have to go "are you ********? Tier 2s are already so imbalanced it's sick, they should actually be nerfed. And you want BETTER ones?" because others already did so restored some of my faith in humanity. If only a little bit.


What roles to Tier 2 BCs take from other ships that they would ever have legitimately filled?

-Liang


Yes, canes and drakes are the lucky recipient of the role "pwnage on the cheap," to the detriment of tier 1s, might I add.Lol

And it's not all tier 2s, btw. Harby is fine as is. And Myrm needs a drone buff.


As usual, you failed to answer my question. I did not ask what specific ships were overpowered, and nor did I ask what specific ship classes weren't performing up to par. Frankly going off on rant about how Tier 1 BCs are useless is about as interesting as talking about how things fall when dropped.

Again: I asked what roles that Tier 2 BCs were taking from another ship that could have legitimately filled it.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#33 - 2011-12-22 04:10:52 UTC
Liam Mirren wrote:

Diversity. When they got introduced they completely messed up the balance between cruisers/HACS and BCs, Then the Myrm got nerfed (too harshly imo, should have kept 100m3 bandwidth) but most are out of whack. I'm sure I don't have to explain that if a certain ship type is the go-to answer for just about any question it needs adjustment.

Drakes and Canes are too good, Harb is only good because Scorch is OP and the Myrm is actually a tad weak. Dropping a mid slot from the Drake and removing the damage bonus from the Cane while allowing for a 7th turret slot would make them less OP and still more than good enough.


Comments:
- T1 cruisers are useless. Even if we deleted all tier 2 BCs from the game, they would remain useless. I do not see this as a compelling argument.
- HACs still have many roles that cannot be filled by BCs of any tier.
- The Myrm nerf has literally nothing to do with anything. Furthermore, it didn't need nerfed. It was then and still is outclassed by the Drake.
- You claim that Drakes and Canes are too good, but you don't say why. You are attempting to prove this by assertion.

Again, you failed to answer my question: What roles to Tier 2 BCs take from other ships that they would ever have legitimately filled?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#34 - 2011-12-22 04:17:44 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:

The Cane fitting a couple of Nano's can pretty much out run any non Minmatar Cruisers and Armor Cruisers. It has 1.5-2x the DPS 1.5-3x the tank and better range them most cruisers. The Drake hangs around lobbing incredible accurate Missiles to ridiculous ranges that match or out dmg most Cruisers with a massive battleship tank and it is not exactly slow.

The only cruisers that get serious use are EWAR, Logi, Kiters and Sig Tankers. Leaves a lot of Slow Armor Cruisers sitting around wondering why Capsuleers just don't touch them like they used too.

The Tier System and bad roles have kept a lot of Cruisers out of the fight. Now Battlecruisers... 2 Battlecruisers to be accurate have become what is akin to the Standard of EVE while what should be the standard (Cruisers) are left to rot.

I hope they rebalance Cruiser roles so the Nanocane can not "Do it all but better" for every non Cynabal out there.


Comments:
- T1 cruisers whether armor or shield fit would remain useless if we deleted every Hurricane and Drake from the game. This is not a compelling argument.
- Discussing damage and damage projection is interesting, but you seem to be making an argument that the Drake has a role that would otherwise be useful for T1 cruisers. This would continue to be true even if the most dire of "Nerf Drake" threads were to take place. This is also not a compelling argument.
- Discussing slow armor cruisers isn't terribly interesting either. Pretty much nothing sub-battleship is armor tanked anymore and that has nothing to do with Tier 2 Battlecruisers... deleting all battlecruisers from the game would not change this.
- Talking about how the tier system obsoletes ships is kind of like talking about how the sun shines or how the earth spins. Its a simple fact and not terribly interesting to the discussion. This exact same argument is frequently used to argue that Tier 1 BCs should be boosted to Tier 2 levels.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Alara IonStorm
#35 - 2011-12-22 05:20:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Liang Nuren wrote:

Comments:
- T1 cruisers whether armor or shield fit would remain useless if we deleted every Hurricane and Drake from the game. This is not a compelling argument.

A compelling Arguement to what?

I don't want Battlecruisers deleted. Sure some balance in nerfing some aspects and buffing others would help. T1 Cruisers and even a great majority of T2 and Faction Combat Cruisers would remain in there unfavorable position. I think there roles should be looked into so it is not a factor of Kite or Die and each one is given a direction and stats that reflect and compliment it. Stats that can not be matched by Battlecruisers, stats that have less to do with the Tank / DPS Game of Battlecruisers and more towards individual Niches like Accuracy, Tackle and Speed, Kiting, Sig Tanking, Hit and Run Sniping, Logi, EWAR and what ever else you can think off.

Let Battlecruisers keep there Tank /DPS and Cruisers shine with tactics and coordination.
Liang Nuren wrote:

- Discussing damage and damage projection is interesting, but you seem to be making an argument that the Drake has a role that would otherwise be useful for T1 cruisers. This would continue to be true even if the most dire of "Nerf Drake" threads were to take place. This is also not a compelling argument.

The problem in my mind is not the just the Drake but Heavy Missiles. They do what Guns can not without the range bonus. Missile Ships that have the velocity bonus should be more viable then they are since the Drake has all but proven it is not a very important bonus when it comes to Heavy Missiles.

I <3 my Drake very much. I want to love the ships that are not flown.
Liang Nuren wrote:

- Discussing slow armor cruisers isn't terribly interesting either. Pretty much nothing sub-battleship is armor tanked anymore and that has nothing to do with Tier 2 Battlecruisers... deleting all battlecruisers from the game would not change this.

No but that should not be the case. Armor Cruisers are fitting for Shield and the ones that don't Kite melt.

Something CCP wants to look into and I agree fully.
Liang Nuren wrote:

- Talking about how the tier system obsoletes ships is kind of like talking about how the sun shines or how the earth spins. Its a simple fact and not terribly interesting to the discussion. This exact same argument is frequently used to argue that Tier 1 BCs should be boosted to Tier 2 levels.

It may not be interesting but it is a part of what has helped to kill off non kiting Cruisers.

It can be used to buff Battlecruisers but have you seen the HP, Capacitor, Fitting and DPS the Tier 2's Sport. All Cruisers for having about or less then half of everything they have is a little speed, sig and scan res. Made less important by Nano's and Sebo's that fit in there extra slots.

I am not going to pretend I have the answers I will say that Cruisers getting love so they become a viable small gang boat / fleet choice along side Battlecruisers would be a big plus and provide much more tactics in EVE Warfare. Something I hope CCP looks into.
Rel'k Bloodlor
Federation Front Line Report
Federation Front Line
#36 - 2011-12-22 08:26:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Rel'k Bloodlor
can't do Navy/Pirate BC's
-most of the pirate ability's mean nothing or to much on a BC hull ( Sansha's/Gurista's < Blood Raider/serpentis/angels )
-Navy already is +1 BS and +1 cruiser hull
-BC's with just 2 bonuses dominate, what will happen one they get 5-10% more EHP/Fitting and 3ed bonus or another 5-10%?
-we just got new BC's!







how about

-the "missing" pirate factions ammar/gallente[rouge drones/EoM] and caldari/mimatar[mercenary/generic?]

-teir 2 and teir 3 Destroyers!!! (I want my destroyer with 6-8 bonused medium gunz!!!!)

-T2 Destroyers that do some thing besides decloak, activate MWD&ISL ,4,3,2,1,cloak

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 
ElCholo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#37 - 2011-12-22 08:36:33 UTC
Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:
-teir 2 and teir 3 Destroyers!!! (I want my destroyer with 6-8 bonused medium gunz!!!!)

-T2 Destroyers that do some thing besides decloak, activate MWD&ISL ,4,3,2,1,cloak


+1 for new tier destroyers and another T2 destroyer!
Rel'k Bloodlor
Federation Front Line Report
Federation Front Line
#38 - 2011-12-22 09:33:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Rel'k Bloodlor
Destroyer Tier 2- races other weapons platform Caldari/missiles"little drake", Gallente/drones"little myrm", Ammar/drone&missiles, Minmatar/6turrets with RoF&Dam bonus "little hurricane"


Destroyer Tier 3- just like how normally BC's pray on cruisers but in teir 3 can take the size above so...Medium gunz* Galente/7gunz, Ammar/8 gunz, Minmatar/7 gunz, Caldari/8 gunz


Tech T2 Tier 2- force logistics, cov cloak+1 ganglink+bonuse to small remote repairers. Not intended fro battle feilds, but to stay off grid and suport with gang link and as a rally/safe point that reps.


Tech 2 Tier 3- Anti-insurgent sniper, long range, High damage uses "Ambant signal reader"


Ambient signal reader- mid slot modual that after a 15 sec delay lets you see and lock clocked units (cloaked units that become locked will of course decloak& you are still dependent on your lock time and range) VERY visible animation for module and should have a long activation and cool down, should "turn on" at end of cycle, can't activate other modz/move well running. 15 sec should be enuff that a cloaked ship could leave if it sees the module go off. {this is already pre-nerfed if ya look at it}

*gave 7 to min&gal because they will have the better slot layout (not stuck with 1 mid or low)

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 
Brotha Umad
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2011-12-22 10:07:50 UTC
Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:
-T2 Destroyers that do some thing besides decloak, activate MWD&ISL ,4,3,2,1,upgrade clone


FTFY.
Your suggestions about destroyers are interesting. Don't let them rot in a "CN draek plz" post.
King Rothgar
Deadly Solutions
#40 - 2011-12-22 11:51:01 UTC
Navy BC's are a sticky issue. I would like to see them added (ideally in both tier levels) but since ordinary BC's are already the most popular ship class (or so it seems) it's a hard case to make for adding improved ones. Fortunately I think this can be done without destroying everything that isn't a BC. This can be done with price.

Ordinary BC's are dirt cheap and very effective. That combined with the versatility make them the default ship choice when in doubt. CS's are far less popular despite being superior to ordinary BC's in most respects. The reason is their cost effectiveness isn't nearly as impressive. They cost 3-4x as much (including t2 fittings) with only some added resistances and a little more EHP to show for it. It makes them greatly superior with logi but in any other situation they aren't really a big improvement. The result is they are only cost effective in certain types of fleets. They are not the default throw away ships that ordinary BC's are. Hence they are effectively balanced via price tag.

This same setup can be applied to navy BC's. They can be somewhat improved over their t1 counterparts but not so much that the added price tag becomes negligible. So make them cost around 150M isk on market (after things settle down), have +50% HP (standard navy version bonus), +50% sensor strength (also standard navy bonus) and nothing else. Incidentally this still won't trample on field CS's as their advantage is their epic resistances which the navy versions won't have. They will however have similar EHP but as said, that's not really the advantage CS's are based on.

One small caveat to this, the myrm should probably be changed around some. The base model isn't stellar so I'm inclined to say it should get to use 5x heavy drones. This can come at a PG/CPU penalty to restrict tank or high slot mods.

[u]Fireworks and snowballs are great, but what I really want is a corpse launcher.[/u]