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Margin Trading Adjustment
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GavinCapacitor
CaeIum Incognitum
#21 - 2011-12-22 20:16:42 UTC
Srioghal moDhream wrote:

This super easy fix is this:

Make it so the minimum amount required cannot exceed the value of the escrow required for the order.

So say you wanted to place a buy order for 10,000 tech. The value of which is 100,000.
Without margin trading you would have to place the full 1 billion in escrow.
But if you have margin trading at a level which gives a 50% reduction you would only have to place 500 million.
At this point make it so that the minimum amount required cannot exceed that 500 million. So the highest it could be is 5000 units.


Then you just sell 5000 'tech' at the super inflated price, give away all your isk from your alt as soon as it makes the buy order (like you do anyway), and Bam, problem solved.

So if everyone had margin trading V, all this would do is double the quantity for the fake orders, and nothing else changes.

Not to mention all those alts probably only have margin trading 1, not 5.

I think you didn't actually think about this much at all before you posted...
Srioghal moDhream
Perkone
Caldari State
#22 - 2011-12-22 20:29:14 UTC
GavinCapacitor wrote:
Srioghal moDhream wrote:

This super easy fix is this:

Make it so the minimum amount required cannot exceed the value of the escrow required for the order.

So say you wanted to place a buy order for 10,000 tech. The value of which is 100,000.
Without margin trading you would have to place the full 1 billion in escrow.
But if you have margin trading at a level which gives a 50% reduction you would only have to place 500 million.
At this point make it so that the minimum amount required cannot exceed that 500 million. So the highest it could be is 5000 units.


Then you just sell 5000 'tech' at the super inflated price, give away all your isk from your alt as soon as it makes the buy order (like you do anyway), and Bam, problem solved.

So if everyone had margin trading V, all this would do is double the quantity for the fake orders, and nothing else changes.

Not to mention all those alts probably only have margin trading 1, not 5.

I think you didn't actually think about this much at all before you posted...


I don't think your reading comprehension skills are very high. Besides another poster already showed a way around it that actually made sense, unlike your contribution.

But thanks for trying.
Lucjan
Deutzer Freiheit
#23 - 2011-12-22 20:31:06 UTC
Pay attention to what you're doing and don't market pvp while drunk.

An obvious strategy to this scam could take years and a substantial investment but could eventually pay off.
Beat them at their own game. Note the scams and what items they are looking for and start collecting them, easy for hoarders.
Eventually you could actually fill the order, you could make 2b and they receive 10000 copper serpentis tags.

There is another level to this scam as well to protect yourself from. Same scammer will have sell orders in different regions at 'reasonable' prices. I was 1000 short on some tags and found some in a few distant regions from Jita. I started buying the ones that wouldn't yield too much off a loss even though it would not be enough anyways but of course the scam buy order in Jita disappeared within minutes or even seconds of buying the ones in the other regions.

Scams repeat themselves so even if they stop for a year they'll resurface due to the lack of imagination.

Not sure there are any other scams that carry such a great risk to the scammer and our ability to make them pay.
Max Von Sydow
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2011-12-22 21:52:37 UTC
Lucjan wrote:
Pay attention to what you're doing and don't market pvp while drunk.

An obvious strategy to this scam could take years and a substantial investment but could eventually pay off.
Beat them at their own game. Note the scams and what items they are looking for and start collecting them, easy for hoarders.
Eventually you could actually fill the order, you could make 2b and they receive 10000 copper serpentis tags.


I don't think you understand how the scam works.
The order can never be filled because the scammer does not have the isk to pay for it and the buy order is automatically canceled.
Noriko Mai
#25 - 2011-12-23 08:31:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Noriko Mai
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

This is an excellent idea. At least, I thought so at first..... and then I thought about it,

And on second thought... it can be worked around and doesn't fix anything.

I place a sell order on the market for 1k worth of 1m isk items. WIth margin trading X, I have to put 250m in escerow, but I can place the minimum buy order at 250. I then buy 250 untis from myself, using some or all of the money I currently have in escrow. The min buy order is still 250. I then transfer all the money away from sell-order character, and we still have margin trading market scams. The only way around this, is to use the escrow money last, rather than first. But if its used last, then the order will still be immediately cancelled when the first buyer attempts to purchase said items and funds aren't available...

Hence, this is not a solution.

The only solution I can think of involves removing the minimum buy amount, or changing the minimum buy amount to be a percentage of the amount in escrow...


I don't get it. Margin traiding is for buy order or not?
And if you say that at least the min buy order have to be in escrow it will fix the margin trading scam.
If you have to put the money in escrow again after you bought something or the order will be closed.
Or is there something i miss?

"Meh.." - Albert Einstein
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#26 - 2011-12-23 09:48:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Destination SkillQueue
Noriko Mai wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

This is an excellent idea. At least, I thought so at first..... and then I thought about it,

And on second thought... it can be worked around and doesn't fix anything.

I place a sell order on the market for 1k worth of 1m isk items. WIth margin trading X, I have to put 250m in escerow, but I can place the minimum buy order at 250. I then buy 250 untis from myself, using some or all of the money I currently have in escrow. The min buy order is still 250. I then transfer all the money away from sell-order character, and we still have margin trading market scams. The only way around this, is to use the escrow money last, rather than first. But if its used last, then the order will still be immediately cancelled when the first buyer attempts to purchase said items and funds aren't available...

Hence, this is not a solution.

The only solution I can think of involves removing the minimum buy amount, or changing the minimum buy amount to be a percentage of the amount in escrow...


I don't get it. Margin traiding is for buy order or not?
And if you say that at least the min buy order have to be in escrow it will fix the margin trading scam.
If you have to put the money in escrow again after you bought something or the order will be closed.
Or is there something i miss?


I don't think it works like you think it works. You only put money in escrow when you put up the initial order. In this system there is nothing preventing the scammer to be the first buyer making the anti scam measure pointless. If you implement the system in a way that it constantly checks wallets and sucks money out of them, it will create additional stress for the market servers and reduce the usefulness of margin trading for legitimate traders. Not to mention the constant drain of isk from your wallet will be annoying and make planning you isk usage more complicated. Afterall the system needs to check every buy order in the game everytime it has any activity and pull more money from the players wallet. It could be possible, but I don't think it's worth the cost and hassle. The additional stress, if it would even cause any, is a total non-issue compared to the inconvenience it causes though.

Lets look at the whole situation from the grand perspective. The current situation is actually pretty good. The scam does in no way negatively affect the larger game as it only works in a small margin of cases. It's also easy to spot and avoid by either knowing the market price of the items you're trading or looking closely at the buy orders. Even when the scam works it's just a case of someone buying an item for above the current market price, and let's be honest here, it only applies to traders and only to bad/greedy ones at that.

I'm sure there are ways to fix it, but every suggestion seems to be worse than the actual problem it tries to address. The scam is so minor and easily avoidable, that fixing it isn't worth inconveniencing legitimate traders in any way or reducing the usefulness of margin trading.
Noriko Mai
#27 - 2011-12-23 10:10:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Noriko Mai
Destination SkillQueue wrote:

I don't think it works like you think it works. You only put money in escrow when you put up the initial order. In this system there is nothing preventing the scammer to be the first buyer making the anti scam measure pointless. If you implement the system in a way that it constantly checks wallets and sucks money out of them, it will create additional stress for the market servers and reduce the usefulness of margin trading for legitimate traders. Not to mention the constant drain of isk from your wallet will be annoying and make planning you isk usage more complicated. Afterall the system needs to check every buy order in the game everytime it has any activity and pull more money from the players wallet. It could be possible, but I don't think it's worth the cost and hassle.

Lets look at the whole situation from the grand perspective. The current situation is actually pretty good. The scam does in no way negatively affect the larger game as it only works in a small margin of cases. It's also easy to spot and avoid by either knowing the market price of the items you're trading or looking closely at the buy orders. Even when the scam works it's just a case of someone buying an item for above the current market price, and let's be honest here, it only applies to traders and only to bad/greedy ones at that.

I'm sure there are ways to fix it, but every suggestion seems to be worse than the actual problem it tries to address. The scam is so minor and easily avoidable, that fixing it isn't worth inconveniencing legitimate traders in any way or reducing the usefulness of margin trading.



I know how it works and it's not a problem for me. I only wanted to say that you can solve it with this simple addition to the escrow system.
And I don't think it would create additional stress to the server. It simply moves the money for the minimum buy order or minimum escrow through margin trading from your wallet before it is filled.

Sure all the people here are 1337 hax0r uber pr0, but I think a lot of new players would benefit from it. There is no reason to make life in EvE more complicated that it is and I welcome every change that simplyfies EvE a bit. It's not about making it WoW in space.

"Meh.." - Albert Einstein
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