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CCP Fozzie Commits Rorqual Genocide

Author
JG Wentworth
The Russian Miners
#1 - 2016-08-17 06:03:05 UTC  |  Edited by: JG Wentworth
Recently on the o7 Show, CCP Fozzie confirmed the removal of off-grid boosts and that this change would apply to mining boots. This means that you will have to siege your rorqual in the mining anomaly for 5 minutes to provide boosts superior to those from an orca. CCPs logic is that the rorquals tank will be increased and it will be provided with the ability to make other miners in its vicinity invulnerable for a short period of time, in order to receive support via a cyno, etc.

This may not be a problem for large, condensed nulsec alliances, such as goonswarm, test, darkness Co2, CVA, etc. However, for nulsec entities who cannot flashform enough people to fight a 50-100 man gila / proteus fleet from a wormhole (particularly thera), it is practically suicide to siege your rorqual, because eventually it will get tackled, and if they can keep it tackled it will die.

The underlying issue here is wormhole power projection. Groups like VOLTA have the ability to tackle something, (such as a rorqual sieged in the belt) and hold it there with a sabre long enough for them to mobilize a large fleet from a thera wormhole a few jumps away (or in system).

Even if you have scouts a few jumps away from where your corp is mining there is no way you are going to be able to red cycle siege and get your rorqual safe before the Thera boys tackle you. At that point you are dead and might as well self destruct your rorqual if you don't have a large amount of support ready to jump to your cyno.

However for instance, lets say your corp has 2 FAX and 10 carriers that can support your tackled rorqual. What will likely happen is VOLTA will keep your group of capitals tackled and then call in support from freinds (yes PL has jump clones and sleipnir's in thera, and likes to kill capitals).

Once again the issue here is wormhole power projection and why it is not viable to siege your rorqual or attempt to support it when it gets tackled by large wormhole entities.

A few potential changes that would make rorqual boosting viable would be:

1. Reduce the duration of the industrial core to 1 minute.
2. Remove the industrial core and add a flat bonus to the rorqual.
3. Make it so that unsieged rorqual boosts are better than orca boosts.
4. Allow mining boosts ( not combat boosts ) to be passed from off-grid.
5. Give an additional yield bonus to miners in the vicinity of the rorqual.
Not Primary Disengage
Chemical Redox
#2 - 2016-08-17 06:35:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Not Primary Disengage
I agree. There was never a problem with off-grid mining boosts. The problem was combat boosts.

The technical and practical realities of the game mean that very rarely will the rorqual pilot be able to mount any sort of defense in time.

I suggest CCP game designers spend one month mining in nullsec before they make any serious changes.

I would add that most people asking for rorqual changes, have never flown a rorqual. They only shoot at them.
47 6f 64
Chilastra Syndicate
#3 - 2016-08-17 08:33:27 UTC
Build another one. If you are in null sec and your corp can't afford to replace a rorqual every few weeks, you are doing it wrong. The point of the game isn't to make stuff so that it never dies.

If I win please Evemail me.

Do Little
Bluenose Trading
#4 - 2016-08-17 08:34:41 UTC
I think the debate should be risk vs reward. Is the expected value provided by using the Rorqual greater than the cost of losing it? The current situation which allows a Rorqual to sit behind a POS forcefield with an AFK pilot and boost the entire system is not balanced though I understand why people are upset that it is going away. The level of boost provided by a Rorqual (42% I believe) should involve some risk!
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5 - 2016-08-17 08:47:43 UTC
Not Primary Disengage wrote:
I agree. There was never a problem with off-grid mining boosts. The problem was combat boosts.


If its providing your fleet with a bonus then it should not be sitting perfectly safe in a POS.
JG Wentworth
The Russian Miners
#6 - 2016-08-17 09:02:53 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
If its providing your fleet with a bonus then it should not be sitting perfectly safe in a POS.


I agree, I don't see any issue with on-grid mining boosts if you are not stuck there for 5 minutes... I don't think that it should necessarily be 100% safe. However I feel that something needs to be done with the industrial core.

47 6f 64 wrote:
Build another one. If you are in null sec and your corp can't afford to replace a rorqual every few weeks, you are doing it wrong. The point of the game isn't to make stuff so that it never dies.


In response to that I don't know what region of nulsec you live in but a large gang passes through most nulsec systems much more often than every few weeks... I think even in very low-traffic regions you get a gang at least a few times a week. However the issue is once people know that you use a rorqual to boost on-grid they can just come back and farm your rorquals daily to the point where it would not be worth it to use them.
ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2016-08-17 10:33:07 UTC  |  Edited by: ChromeStriker
Nothing was said about having to "siege" in a belt... other than the time frame of their "anti-gank ray" thing...

Way i see it, Rorq's were so risk averse something had to change. Getting them into belts is a great move...
and being scared of WH's is a healthy stance tbh... we're scary

Edit - And if you dont want to risk a rorq there are those new mining BC's they were on about...

No Worries

Kalido Raddi
Crown Mineworks
Goonswarm Federation
#8 - 2016-08-17 13:06:29 UTC
Get organised, Roll the Holes before they become a problem.

Also, Cyno Jammers are your friends.

Rorqual Mining is going to require a lot more co-ordinated teamplay to work after changes. It's no longer as easy as sticking a locked POS up with a booster in it.
Merena Enderas
Deep Space Mining Industry
#9 - 2016-08-17 13:51:55 UTC
if you so scarry about the Wormhole peops , then role the holes , take yachts(WIthout higgs rig , 100mn ab +instawarp) and your 10 peops and close it (1problem solved) Or just youse orcas then rorqs if the risk is to high for you.Its like sitting with dread in C5/C6 Site you stuck for 5 mins , the peops there accept it why you nullbears cant ? :(

Wormhole Stuff on Youtube

Ingame Channel: All Hail Bob

JG Wentworth
The Russian Miners
#10 - 2016-08-17 16:49:45 UTC  |  Edited by: JG Wentworth
Merena Enderas wrote:
if you so scarry about the Wormhole peops , then role the holes , take yachts(WIthout higgs rig , 100mn ab +instawarp) and your 10 peops and close it (1problem solved) Or just youse orcas then rorqs if the risk is to high for you.Its like sitting with dread in C5/C6 Site you stuck for 5 mins , the peops there accept it why you nullbears cant ? :(


The difference here is you have much more control over your space in a WH, you have the ability to roll statics so that the new hole does not become visible on the other side for 1.5-5.5 hours ( depending on if they are 16 or 24 hour holes). I wish I could roll stargates :(

edit: "other people's statics can still open into you, and wandering holes can spawn, though rare, however, you know instantly when either of those happens, also, who ever ran wormhole sites in a dread, it's terrible, before cap changes you could solo escalate in a thanatos, and you aren't stuck there for 5 minutes and can just fit a cloak"
JG Wentworth
The Russian Miners
#11 - 2016-08-17 16:52:46 UTC
ChromeStriker wrote:
Nothing was said about having to "siege" in a belt... other than the time frame of their "anti-gank ray" thing


Unless they change the industrial core the rorqual has always had to siege to provide better boosts than a max skill orca.
Keebler Wizard
Skew The Suits
#12 - 2016-08-17 22:21:59 UTC
JG Wentworth wrote:
ChromeStriker wrote:
Nothing was said about having to "siege" in a belt... other than the time frame of their "anti-gank ray" thing


Unless they change the industrial core the rorqual has always had to siege to provide better boosts than a max skill orca.


So you're saying its unlikely a current key mechanic will change in the massive overhaul of the ship? Do tell.

Until CCP says "SIEGE IN BELT REQUIRED FOR MINING BOOSTZ" then I see no need for you to assume things. Hell they even talked about a 3rd mining boost ship that's at a battlecruiser level or so.

Im getting off topic, but the point is don't spread false information based off "the way you heard it" instead of what they actually said.
JG Wentworth
The Russian Miners
#13 - 2016-08-17 23:17:14 UTC
Keebler Wizard wrote:
JG Wentworth wrote:
ChromeStriker wrote:
Nothing was said about having to "siege" in a belt... other than the time frame of their "anti-gank ray" thing


Unless they change the industrial core the rorqual has always had to siege to provide better boosts than a max skill orca.


So you're saying its unlikely a current key mechanic will change in the massive overhaul of the ship? Do tell.

Until CCP says "SIEGE IN BELT REQUIRED FOR MINING BOOSTZ" then I see no need for you to assume things. Hell they even talked about a 3rd mining boost ship that's at a battlecruiser level or so.

Im getting off topic, but the point is don't spread false information based off "the way you heard it" instead of what they actually said.


I don't think fozzie has ever mined in nulsec so i'm not sure if they will change the siege mechanic, however I just logged into the test sever where the new mining barge changes are live and can confirm that you have to siege to provide boosts better than an orca. Yes I understand that it is still relatively early and the mechanics could still be changed.
ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2016-08-18 07:35:04 UTC
If you have to seige in belts it better tripple your barges yield lol (thats over normal boosts)

No Worries

Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#15 - 2016-08-18 11:33:30 UTC
JG Wentworth wrote:
This may not be a problem for large, condensed nulsec alliances, such as goonswarm.........


you haven't been keeping up with recent events, have you?

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura

Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#16 - 2016-08-18 13:57:51 UTC
How to: Unfuck the Rorqual.

Step 1: Remove mining boosts all together. Add the yield mining ships were getting through mining boosts to the hulls / stripminers / whatever, so they all still make the same yield.
Step 2: Make the Rorqual generate yield on it's own, for example, through mining drones (as is probably coming), capital gas harvesters, whatever. Does NOT necessarily have to make more yield than a hulk - but would be damn nice!
Step 3: Allow it to compress ore without sieging or whatever directly in the belt.
Step 4: Give it a fleet-accessible ore hangar, so haulers can approach it and scoop the ore directly from the ship. Since it can only hold ore, you can easily make it ******* huge, as in: You need a Freighter to empty it.
Step 5: Allow combat ships to be stored in it's ship maintenance bay.
Vasili Zaitsez
Malleus Clusores
Brothers of Tangra
#17 - 2016-08-18 20:34:55 UTC
The solution seems pretty straight forward. Simply disconnect boosts from the industrial core. Allow the same level of boost without making it a stationary target. No other command ship has to immobilize it self to provide boosts. From Command Destroyers to Titans you can provide boosts without immobilization or fuel consumption.

So let's get those Rorquals on grid and boosting without using industrial cores. I use a Rorqual and have no issue taking on risk to get my reward.

For those concerned about loosing their POS Queens, I will share my secret weapons. It's a full screen height local window with an overview that marks neutrals flashy red. I also roll any local WHs and my Corp keeps eyes one system out. Additionally I watch the Intel comms closely. Doing this provides the PvP players plenty of content. They get to look at your pretty warp trails when you leave since you knew they were there.
JG Wentworth
The Russian Miners
#18 - 2016-08-19 01:29:48 UTC
Vasili Zaitsez wrote:
The solution seems pretty straight forward. Simply disconnect boosts from the industrial core. Allow the same level of boost without making it a stationary target. No other command ship has to immobilize it self to provide boosts. From Command Destroyers to Titans you can provide boosts without immobilization or fuel consumption.

So let's get those Rorquals on grid and boosting without using industrial cores. I use a Rorqual and have no issue taking on risk to get my reward.


I agree 100%, this is the most logical solution instead of having different boost mechanics for mining boosts and combat boosts.
JG Wentworth
The Russian Miners
#19 - 2016-08-19 01:36:51 UTC
ChromeStriker wrote:
If you have to seige in belts it better tripple your barges yield lol (thats over normal boosts)


Yeah, I agree to some extent - however if it tripled your yield over normal boosts the price of ore would tank and it would be pretty much required to siege to make good isk.
Minerva Arbosa
Spatial Forces
Warped Intentions
#20 - 2016-08-19 04:24:10 UTC
Just wait till mineral prices skyrocket, and the Gila goes from being 200m / hull to 600m / hull. Do you all honestly think ship prices aren't going to skyrocket due to mineral prices going up severly? I can't wait until all the minerals I am building up sky rocket in price up to the new normal of double or triple the price. You don't think it will happen then wait and see.
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