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Caldari Society - what are the most important areas of opinion?

Author
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#21 - 2016-08-14 20:25:43 UTC
I don't remember it going so well for you when you put your money where your mouth is and took a shot at us. At the end of the day though, Kim-haani, we really don't care what YOU think constitutes a Caldari or doesn't. We look to others for that definition.

There are many different Caldari citizens all practising the Way of the Caldari in different manners. We have never pretended to have common cause with your particular brand, but we are quite keen on protecting our own brand of State citizenship. You ought to be grateful that we somehow have the good graces to maintain any sort of recognition of your service, since you find it almost impossible to recognise anybody elses.

One of these days you'll learn just how ineffective shouting at everyone constantly is, but today is obviously not that day.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Desiderya
Blue Canary
Watch This
#22 - 2016-08-14 21:02:13 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:

You stopped being a "good Caldari citizen" to know it as well long time ago, choosing to play guristas and mercenaries.

As Ms. Maxwell has said, if you are willing to work, fight, kill and die for the State, then you are a part of the State. But if you aren't, then you aren't.

Some gurista hate the State and want us destroyed. Other gurista even dare to consider themselves "Caldari". But they never will be Caldari, they are just exiles that work for themselves. Like you. Caldari are those, who work for the State.

If you would like to know more about the State, you might even consider joining us. And if you join we might even consider not shooting at you. No guarantees though.


Your opinion of me is of less relevance to myself than the dirt under my fingernails, so save your breath. I assume others are equally tired of listening to your off-topic ramblings and would welcome you to stay on target. You may not like the way your idol went down but it does not change the facts.

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.

Arnulf Ogunkoya
Clan Ogunkoya
Electus Matari
#23 - 2016-08-14 21:20:53 UTC
Desiderya wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:

You stopped being a "good Caldari citizen" to know it as well long time ago, choosing to play guristas and mercenaries.

As Ms. Maxwell has said, if you are willing to work, fight, kill and die for the State, then you are a part of the State. But if you aren't, then you aren't.

Some gurista hate the State and want us destroyed. Other gurista even dare to consider themselves "Caldari". But they never will be Caldari, they are just exiles that work for themselves. Like you. Caldari are those, who work for the State.

If you would like to know more about the State, you might even consider joining us. And if you join we might even consider not shooting at you. No guarantees though.


Your opinion of me is of less relevance to myself than the dirt under my fingernails, so save your breath. I assume others are equally tired of listening to your off-topic ramblings and would welcome you to stay on target. You may not like the way your idol went down but it does not change the facts.


Commander Kim's opinion is puzzling to be sure.

Since when is making a profit providing a quality service UnCaldari? As long as a Caldari mercenary doesn't routinely fire on the State militia, and possibly by extension their allied militia, I can't see the problem.

While I'm writing. Does the OP object to non Caldari asking about Caldari culture in this thread, as long as it's done in a polite way?

Regards, Arnulf Ogunkoya.

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#24 - 2016-08-15 05:40:00 UTC
No, he certainly doesn't object.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Slayer Liberator
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2016-08-15 05:52:36 UTC
I think that while willingness to fight for your empire(or in my case corporation) should make you a member it should not be a requirement to be a member of said empire/corporation
Desiderya
Blue Canary
Watch This
#26 - 2016-08-15 11:30:01 UTC
It is a very good start, though, which is why mandatory military service is one of the pillars of the Caldari society. If you're refering to your activities now as an egger... Opinions differ. I know individuals who have gone above and beyond without ever firing a single bullet in a campaign and I've met those whose military career revolves around wearing a badge and a fancy cap.
Take a wild guess which one is of more value.

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.

Slayer Liberator
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2016-08-15 15:51:08 UTC
Desiderya wrote:
It is a very good start, though, which is why mandatory military service is one of the pillars of the Caldari society. If you're refering to your activities now as an egger... Opinions differ. I know individuals who have gone above and beyond without ever firing a single bullet in a campaign and I've met those whose military career revolves around wearing a badge and a fancy cap.
Take a wild guess which one is of more value.

In my opinion the miners who mine the materials to make the ships and guns are just as important as the ones using them
Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#28 - 2016-08-15 18:40:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Makoto Priano
Good afternoon, pilots!

I'd initially written up something similar to Tuulinen-haan's, but suffered a neocom glitch and Lavius-haan beat me to a Liberal appraisal.

Seeing as some time has passed and a few more topics have arisen, I'll start with a restatement from the Liberal perspective, and then address a few digressions. Indeed, I'll even go so far as to try to discuss certain philosophical elements of being Caldari. Hopefully this will prove educational.

As a Liberal, we adopt many of the same basic philosophical tenets of all Caldari. As an Ishukone-affiliated pilot, we are sometimes outspoken in our differences. We share these views:

  1. Only Citizens have the right to be counted as full members of the State.
  2. The foundation of the State is community -- by blood, by school, by profession, by corporation. The bonds of community allow us to withstand great harshness. There is a reason the oldest existent Caldari communities are communes.
  3. Caldari culture must be preserved, whether by ethnicity, history, language, etc.
  4. The Megacorporate system is the natural system of governance for the State. Well-directed competition is advantageous both to the corporation, and to the State. By encouraging this, we are stronger.
  5. Meritocracy is the natural means by which we reward competition by individuals or small groups, and the means by which we prevent stagnation and waste.
  6. The lives of others are their own concern.
  7. Defense is a natural focus of the State, and service (military or civil) is a rite of passage that demonstrates that youth are ready to become responsible, dutiful Citizens. Often, the quality of one's service and the role one is able to serve is a particular sign of merit.

To clarify, a number of Liberal digressions:

  1. Guest workers are to be valued as potential citizens, though there is a great gap in experience and culture that must be bridged for this to be possible. Likewise, Disassociated may sometimes be rehabilitated. Certainly those who are born into Disassociated camps may not have the flaws or failings of their progenitors, and sometimes make the most driven Citizens. Outreach and rehabilitation programs are potentially advantageous, but one should not be blinded by sentiment.
  2. This is less a digression and more a two-fold clarification. Ishukone and Hyasyoda differ greatly in social culture, and this is felt through-out the structure and expectations within a community. For instance, there are many that feel that private and public life are distinct; while State culture generally doesn't allow much room for a private life, prying is unseemly. So long as what happens behind closed doors does not influence the community, some would say it does not warrant concern. Others would disagree, saying that private conduct demonstrates public merit. This could be used to illustrate an Ishukone-Hyasyoda divide.
  3. The issue of ethnic preservation as a means of cultural preservation is not widely disputed, but also often not held as a key concern. I would contend that the matter is that there has been much intermingling of blood over the millenia, and at this point it is as much about preservation of philosophical strains as genetics. Partners with similar upbringings and philosophies are more compatible; thus, the Deteis, Civire, and Achuran ethos and ethnicity generally don't partner well, but is this really important? It is usually sorted out well before anything would hit the House of Records.
  4. There is no disagreement on this point.
  5. Meritocracy can sometimes be sticky. For instance, it is right and seemly for parents to provide for the best reasonable education for their children, to better provide for their family, and to better provide the State. At the same time, it is unseemly for parents to beggar themselves for the sake of education; wastefulness and excess of that sort are to be strongly discouraged. And yet, there is a risk that hereditary wealth and education provide a means by which the meritocracy struggles to provide meaningful competition and reward, as sometimes the children of a given family are indeed not worthy of the same professional caste, or are worthier of a higher one than the parents can provide education for. Competition and meritocratic programs for individual uplift are staples of education. Some highly capable Citizens rise through boarding schools that bring the children of the destitute or of low-wage classes into education environments better suited to them. I could go on at length, but I suppose you all get my meaning.
  6. There is little disagreement regarding foreign others, but point 2 above does illustrate a philosophical distinction at the community level.
  7. There is little disagreement here. Some corporations may wish to provide a more civil focus, and others a more military one. The key remains service.

I've carried on at length, but I should note two elements of culture.

Outspokenness: On one hand, public discourse and availability of verifiable, concrete data or analysis of that data are necessary for the public welfare, for stockholder faith in institutions, and for the community to be able to self-correct on breached norms. On the other hand, it is unseemly to disrupt the community with one's outspokenness. Those too outspoken sometimes find themselves closed off, cast out, or at worst Disassociated. I will admit I am far too outspoken. It is my greatest fault, and I am grateful for those of the State who see my merit despite it.

Kutuoto Miru, or: Piercing the Veil: Knowledge of the world around one is a necessity. Penetrating past misconception, bias, wishful thinking, to understand the nature of a thing, whether that thing is a mechanical system or a sociological construct, is vitally important. Without it, we would not be able to navigate adversity, compete effectively, or even survive as a people.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#29 - 2016-08-15 18:57:40 UTC
On trade, a notable Liberal hallmark;

The State is not a closed system. To pretend otherwise is foolish. By attempting to compete in other markets, by allowing the possibility of foreign goods to compete in ours, we increase the general level of competitiveness that our corporations must face. That there will be barriers to entry to the State market, and significant cultural hurdles to be overcome before other nations' corporations are even able to maintain a presence in the State, well, that serves an important role in cultural preservation. Of course, an open trade policy is advantageous to us simply because of the competitiveness it engenders. Of course, it is clear that self-interest must guide us, and the highest form of self-interest must consider the benefits and drawbacks of actions in a long time-frame. We do not merely wish to profit in the short term; we wish to maintain the circumstances that will allow us to succeed in the future. This is the advantage of a Liberal trade policy.

That said, on the matter of Consorting With The Enemy or whatever some might call it. I will take two angles with this, as I have before in other venues.

Using the analogy of stock diversification, it is often considered prudent to employ multiple strategies with one's investments. This way, one is not overly exposed to risk, whether systemic or limited. Even if one part of one's portfolio suffers, the other elements may yet net dividends. Even if the entirety of one's portfolio suffers, one is better positioned to recover after the initial crash. Diversification is sound investment strategy.

Likewise, the competition of the Megacorporations and their different cultures and political stances serves as a sort of diversification in competitive methods for the Caldari culture. By preserving different cultures and engendering competition between them, we lessen the risk of catastrophic failure for the Caldari people.

For example, Heth's reclaiming of Caldari Prime was a momentous occasion for the State, and a great success of what one might call an extreme form of the Patriot political model. The following years, however, began to take toll on the State given the constraints placed on the Megacorporate model and the narrowing of competitive methods available to the State. Effectively, the State's strategy became undifferentiated, undiversified. Thus, the State was exposed to a catastrophic failure, which was lack of preparation by Heth for Highlander. What could have been a complete catastrophe, however, was prevented by the continued functioning of one divergent element of the portfolio: the Liberal methods championed by Ishukone. Before Gallente orbital control could truly tell on the State loyalists still fighting on the surface, Ishukone managed to convince the Federation to cease fighting. Because of this, instead of Caldari Prime being a cinder or fully under Federal control, we hold a majority of the planet. A potential catastrophe became a very qualified success.

To put this in other words, the pithy phrase: an iron fist in a velvet glove. The State had demonstrated quite effectively the capability of an iron fist. However, in the end, it also needed the velvet glove.

Foreign trade is the velvet glove, simply said. So long as the Republic and the Federation are not existential threats, to abandon the velvet glove simply because of xenophobic sentiment is at the very least ignorant and unwise, and quite possibly dangerous or an active risk to the State's future.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#30 - 2016-08-15 19:05:26 UTC
Makoto Priano wrote:
Foreign trade is the velvet glove, simply said. So long as the Republic and the Federation are not existential threats, to abandon the velvet glove simply because of xenophobic sentiment is at the very least ignorant and unwise, and quite possibly dangerous or an active risk to the State's future.

I cannot highlight this enough. My own corporation suffered heavily when Heth departed as CEO, whilst Ishukone prospered. Kaalakiota has, however, recovered with unprecedented speed under the wise guidance of Oritsuu-haani - strong ideas prosper.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#31 - 2016-08-15 20:21:51 UTC
Arnulf Ogunkoya wrote:

Commander Kim's opinion is puzzling to be sure.

Since when is making a profit providing a quality service UnCaldari? As long as a Caldari mercenary doesn't routinely fire on the State militia, and possibly by extension their allied militia, I can't see the problem.

While I'm writing. Does the OP object to non Caldari asking about Caldari culture in this thread, as long as it's done in a polite way?

This is quite simple. The mercenary is Caldari only while they provide mercenary services to Caldari corporations. When they do it for whomever, well... they are more gurista than Caldari, thinking only about their skin.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#32 - 2016-08-15 21:25:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Makoto Priano
Diana Kim wrote:

This is quite simple. The mercenary is Caldari only while they provide mercenary services to Caldari corporations. When they do it for whomever, well... they are more gurista than Caldari, thinking only about their skin.


By your own admission, then, you fired on Caldari. Even if they are mercenaries, Pyre Falcon was integrated into the State militia when you fired on them, and therefore providing services to the State. Ergo, they were Caldari, even if you disagree with their ideology.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#33 - 2016-08-15 21:35:21 UTC
Makoto Priano wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:

This is quite simple. The mercenary is Caldari only while they provide mercenary services to Caldari corporations. When they do it for whomever, well... they are more gurista than Caldari, thinking only about their skin.


By your own admission, then, you fired on Caldari. Even if they are mercenaries, Pyre Falcon was integrated into the State militia when you fired on them, and therefore providing services to the State. Ergo, they were Caldari, even if you disagree with their ideology.

I fired on traitors, who were in militia. Treason is not ideology. It is a crime. Punishable by death.

And, Makoto, leave Caldari business to Caldari. And don't put your coward lying nose in our affairs. Got it?

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#34 - 2016-08-15 21:48:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Makoto Priano
In what way were they guilty of treason? Per the AAR, you opened fire first.

As for being Caldari, well, I think at this point any party to this forum knows the truth of that.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#35 - 2016-08-15 22:16:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Diana Kim
Makoto Priano wrote:
In what way were they guilty of treason? Per the AAR, you opened fire first.

As for being Caldari, well, I think at this point any party to this forum knows the truth of that.

Considering you are a liar, obviously, you would just HAVE to link a report made by a known gurista and liar as well. I don't know why you ever bring this thing here, as it is completely unrelated, and I have given my answer in that thread to dirty accusations of a liar Gesakaarin.

I don't have to explain my actions to low-life who are not related to our State. Currently we have a Militia Coalition that can act as a tribunal, demand to start or cease the war and pay required reimbursements. Pity we didn't have it back then when Gesakaarin has gone bad. But now we have.

I repeat again, for you, Priano. Don't put your treacherous nose into Caldari business. It doesn't belong there. We will solve all our problems ourselves. And if you wish to get any information, you can write to any of directors of the Coalition.

Though probably after I last time tried to negotiate with you (considering that I have thought you would be a right contact to negotiate your alliance into Coalition... and mistaken greatly about your person) , my official answer to your official request will be to go kiss ignited afterburner.

I prefer to deal with persons who mean business, and not spread lies, slanders and crap like you, and then run away with tail between your legs when you was caught on your lies.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#36 - 2016-08-15 22:32:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Makoto Priano
Riiiight.

Your response in that thread clarified nothing. As usual, your polemics are nonsensical and unsupportable to anyone that doesn't share whatever disassociation you have.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

Nitshe Razvedka
#37 - 2016-08-15 22:49:51 UTC
Dear members of the IGS, Kim has asked me not to praise her any longer. This is truly hard considering she is my Caldari poster girl. Therefor I would ask you to play my musical accompaniments when reading Kim's communications.

Thieving pirates discuss INTEGRITY; Anarchist gankers give us LAWS; and Whoring merc's cry then blow off clients with INSULTS.

Up is down and down is up in the C&P Forum.

Nitshe Razvedka
#38 - 2016-08-15 22:51:46 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Makoto Priano wrote:
In what way were they guilty of treason? Per the AAR, you opened fire first.

As for being Caldari, well, I think at this point any party to this forum knows the truth of that.

Considering you are a liar, obviously, you would just HAVE to link a report made by a known gurista and liar as well. I don't know why you ever bring this thing here, as it is completely unrelated, and I have given my answer in that thread to dirty accusations of a liar Gesakaarin.

I don't have to explain my actions to low-life who are not related to our State. Currently we have a Militia Coalition that can act as a tribunal, demand to start or cease the war and pay required reimbursements. Pity we didn't have it back then when Gesakaarin has gone bad. But now we have.

I repeat again, for you, Priano. Don't put your treacherous nose into Caldari business. It doesn't belong there. We will solve all our problems ourselves. And if you wish to get any information, you can write to any of directors of the Coalition.

Though probably after I last time tried to negotiate with you (considering that I have thought you would be a right contact to negotiate your alliance into Coalition... and mistaken greatly about your person) , my official answer to your official request will be to go kiss ignited afterburner.

I prefer to deal with persons who mean business, and not spread lies, slanders and crap like you, and then run away with tail between your legs when you was caught on your lies.



Barber, Adagio for Strings

Thieving pirates discuss INTEGRITY; Anarchist gankers give us LAWS; and Whoring merc's cry then blow off clients with INSULTS.

Up is down and down is up in the C&P Forum.

Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#39 - 2016-08-15 23:15:15 UTC
We digress.

Kim, what did you think of that summary of Liberal Caldari philosophy? And the various digressions? It seems a fair understanding and statement of Liberal views, does it not?

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

Desiderya
Blue Canary
Watch This
#40 - 2016-08-15 23:21:18 UTC
The AAR is correct and was unedited. We have expected blue-on-blue based on communications and behavior and, as such, had everything prepared to record it properly before retaliating. It wasn't an isolated incident either. There's a pair of highly entertaining reports dated 2013-07-19 10:55 for Innia solar system. The involvement of STPRO makes the case pretty clear cut.
All in all those were pretty insignificant happenings from years ago, but I felt a short statement was in order.





Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.